Detainees, Truce and Agreements *title altered at OP's request*

[stormy4319trevor]

Continuing broad discussion of the release of detainees, hostages and prisoners and the agreements around this.

I am not sure what the purpose of the meeting is, if anyone else knows then please share

@Parkingt111 Seems like a debate on the occupation and the situation in Gaza. I don't think there's a vote on anything. I'm surprised so many are watching. Normally when I check the UN live channel there's just 200 or so but it was 7000 just now!

@stormy4319trevor thank you.
I'm also seeing reports but not verified yet that mossad will be travelling to Qatar this weekend to resume hostage negotiations.
I'm not sure if it's because of the pressure after the three hostages were killed today

That's good news if they can work out a deal.

@stormy4319trevor Indeed - negotiations seem a better route than military intervention to releasing hostages alive by 105 to 1.

Losses harder to quantify as hostages die/killed if negotiations are protracted - that's the massage from the demonstrators in Tel Aviv last night - 'get on with it!'

Sounds slightly more hopeful

Report: Disagreements remain but Israel and Hamas open to ceasefire

According to two Egyptian security sources, Israel and Hamas are both open to a renewed ceasefire and hostage release, although disagreements remain on how it would be implemented.

Hamas is insisting on setting the list of hostages to be released unilaterally, and is demanding that Israeli forces withdraw behind pre-determined lines, the sources told Reuters news agency.

While Israel agreed on Hamas setting the list, it asked for a timeline and to see the list in order to set the time and duration of the ceasefire.

Israel refuses to withdraw, the sources added.

I wonder if any of those released will include the women and girls taken from Gaza by IDF soldiers?
“140 women and girls among thousands reportedly detained in north GazaThe UN’s human rights office says it received reports from the north of Gaza of mass detentions, ill-treatment and forced disappearances of possibly thousands of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli soldiers.
They include more than 100 women and girls, most rounded up as they attempted to move south or were taken during operations conducted on their homes, hospitals, schools and other places of refuge.
OHCHR in the occupied Palestinian territory also said:

• Reports claim children as young as 12 and people as old as 70 are among those detained.
• Reports suggest many of the detained were subjected to serious ill-treatment, which in some instances may amount to torture.
• Credible information was also received about 140 women and girls arbitrarily detained and being held in undisclosed locations.
• Civilians have been killed, including in apparent extrajudicial executions, in places of refuge, particularly schools.“

@Efacsen I don't see Israel withdrawing from Gaza, but I have wondered if they would withdraw from some of the WB. I know it sounds quite radical, but violence there just seems to jeopardise any ceasefire as well. There are places in Gaza they could withdraw from as well, like anywhere civilians are sheltering, hospitals perhaps.

@stormy4319trevor

Actually this is a sensible suggestion that sadly will get ignored.

Not only should Israeli forces and settlers leave the West Bank. But sympathetic Arab nations should be determined to make a Palestinian West Bank an economic success story.

By doing this it will show the Palestinians in Gaza that there is an alternative to the hate and corruption of Hamas in Gaza. Without a successful alternative the likes of Hamas and PIJ and their messages will simply have their support increased.

@1dayatatime I hadn't thought it through to that degree, but I think you are right. Unlikely to happen of course.

Israel would have to end all forms of occupation of the West Bank to allow the economy there to grow. It’s not just the illegal settlers/settlements that are the problem, it’s the robbing of water, the destruction of olive trees, the embargos on imports and exports, the raids, the detentions/arrests, the identity papers showing your ethnicity and checkpoints, the military curfews and restrictions of movement and access to healthcare and education, the taxes being funnelled to subsidise Jewish neighbourhoods, etc

@stormy4319trevor not sure what's meant by the 'withdrawing to behind pre-determined lines' at a guess I'd think it's to make it easier for Hamas to move hostages around without giving away Hamas positions but don't really know

It's a little bit of hope in an otherwise bleak situation if these negotiations can hold

Plus another UNSC meeting wrt a ceasefire - they're still arguing about the wording [can't remember if it was this thread we discussed the previous one]

.

A lot of progress is being made but it needs a lot more time in dealing with the tunnels. Israel needs to keep pressing ahead with tunnel exploration and then destruction before it moves out

@Efacsen is the outcome of a UNSC vote legally binding?
Is that the one that from the 15 members only the US voted no

@Parkingt111 yes it's another legally binding one again like the one the US vetoed/UK abstained before on ?8th Dec

Very slightly more hopeful than last time but suspect US will veto again

@Efacsen I suspect the same, im wondering if the UK may abstain again or this time vote yes. A ceasefire is so desperately needed right now

@Parkingt111 also wondered the same about UK vote after David Cameron and Ben Wallaces 'interventions' - would be a small bit of progress but it feels so much more pressing now than even 10 days ago

This sounds a bit more promising and will come with some kind of brief ceasefire if it happens

US spy chief to meet Israeli, Qatari officials for new deal on captives: Report

CIA Director Bill Burns is set to meet Qatar’s Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani and the head of Israel’s Mossad spy agency in Poland’s capital Warsaw, according to two US and Israeli officials cited by the Axios news website.

Today’s talks will discuss a potential new deal to secure the release of Israeli captives held by Hamas in Gaza, the report said.

“Israeli officials say Burns’ continued involvement in negotiations is critically important to striking any new deal,” Axios said.

Oh yes I read what Ben Wallace said. I think his words have been the most critical from the UK yet.
He warned against a 'killing rage' and how Israel's actions are likely to radicalise many in the middle east

And this. I see the word that has caused alot of argument has popped up again 'indiscriminate'

Israel risks losing "authority for war" in Gaza by going on a crude and indiscriminate "killing rage" against the Palestinian people.

Such simple words and so eloquent, to my mind they sum up entirely what is happening.
He’s not called for a ceasefire though. But there definitely is pressure to enter a new phase of the war.

Apparently this is is hugely over-optimistic - according to US and Hamas sources - it's the line being pushed by the Israeli gov in response to political pressures at home arising from the accidental killing of the 3 hostages on Friday

So sadly not really true

UNSC Meeting starts at 10pm GMT

Thanks for the update
I'm not very optimistic either but I'm wondering how long before the US crack under the pressure esp as there's signs that the UK is also inching towards a ceasefire
They have changed stances from Humanitarian pauses to sustainable ceasefire. Which although isn't a full ceasefire, it is still a shift in the right direction

UN security council postpones Gaza vote it's a bit long but very thorough

Patrick Wintour
The UN security council has postponed a vote calling for a sustainable cessation of hostilities to give more time to meet US objections to the wording of the draft resolution.

The vote was due on Monday mid afternoon in New York but the US said it could not support a reference to a cessation of hostilities, but might accept suspension of hostilities.

The Arab countries negotiating the text said they had been encouraged by the US approach which suggested the White House was trying to find some wording that they could support as opposed simply to vetoing resolutions, the position it adopted on a humanitarian pause on 18 October and on an urgent humanitarian ceasefire on 9 December.

Divisions within the US administration have been growing with some officials saying the US is misunderstanding the scale of disillusionment in the Global South over US perceived hypocrisy in calling out Russian war crimes in Ukraine, but finding a multitude of reasons to justify the large scalekillings of Palestinians in Gaza.

A range of US diplomats have visited Jerusalem to urge the Israeli government to adopt different military tactics, but with only limited success, and a US support for a suspension of hostilities at the UN, if it happened, would be a signal of US frustration with the Israeli government.

The US has also previously rejected cessation of hostilities resolutions at the 15 strong security council due to the absence of clear criticism of Hamas for its killing of more than 1,000 Israelis, including many women and children on 7 October. The latest draft prepared by the United Arab Emirates simply condemns all acts of terrorism, and calls for all hostages to be released unconditionally.

Pressure has been building on the US after the UN general assembly on 12 December voted by 153 to 10 with 23 abstentions to call for an urgent cessation of hostilities. Permanent members of the security council cannot apply their veto on the General Assembly votes as they can on those held at the security council.
But general assembly votes are expressions of world opinion and do not have the force of law supposedly attached to security council resolutions. In practice many resolutions are ignored.

The sense of US isolation at the General Assembly was a mirror image of the isolation Russia experienced at the Assembly last year over the invasion of Ukraine.

In a bid to win over the British foreign secretary, Lord Cameron, the draft resolution as prepared on Monday had called for a sustainable ceasefire, matching the wording he had used in a weekend article jointly penned with his German counterpart. The wording was designed to make it easier for the UK to move from an abstention, the UK position the last time the issue was debated at the Security Council, to a positive vote in favour.

The UK has on occasion on Middle East issues voted positively for resolutions initially opposed by the US, notably in January 2009 when Gordon Brown instructed the UK envoy to back a UN ceasefire resolution after 13 days of fighting between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. The UK stance helped force the US move from opposition to abstention.

A UN call for a suspension of hostilities would in conjunction with other parts of the resolution put pressure on Israel to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza at scale, and by land sea and air. A monitoring process would be established to overcome blockages to aid reaching Gaza.