People With Very Strong or Definite Views on the 'Right' Side

[miniaturepixieonacid]

This is mainly me being curious and struggling to understand my own feelings on all this.

I am neither Jewish nor Muslim (I'm a Christian) and have no links to Israel or Palestine. So my knowledge and understanding of the recent past is, perhaps wrongly, quite limited. All I feel is horror and sadness at what is happening to both sides in this conflict. (Other than feeling that the particular Hamas men who committed the 7th October atrocities are evidently evil and knowing that Netanyahu is very right wing of course.) I support a 2 state solution but know I don't understand all the complexities. I'd love a ceasefire but have no idea if that's possible or even advisable.

On this board and elsewhere on Mumsnet there are so many people who have come down very strongly on one side or the other and have lots of apparent evidence and knowledge to support their opinions. So, I'm wondering, if that's you, are you:
a) Israeli and/or Jewish or have family/friends who are?
b) Palestinian and/or Muslim or have family/friends who are?
c) Neither religion with no links to either country but have very clear opinions and lots of knowledge regardless.

I don't know where to go for accurate information or if knowing what I think is right or wrong even matters. I'm obsessively following the BBC but know it's probably not completely unbiased.

I'm Christian and agree with the Pope on the need for a ceasefire. My friends and family are of all faiths and none, including Jewish and Muslim. I feel the decades long suffering of Palestinians is a massive injustice, and first paid attention to the issue when the American, Rachel Corrie, was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer. Since then, I have been horrified by the shooting of civilians, children and journalists, and the slow creep of Israeli control over the whole territory. I strongly feel Israel should withdraw to the 67 borders, perfect their security, and allow Palestinians to live free from oppression, discrimination and occupation, I'm also horrified that the current government seems to have no interest in doing so.

A brilliant post. It’s people like you who will help bring about peace 🙏

My friend's twins were murdered on kibbutz Be'eri. My husband's childhood friend was taken hostage from the music festival. Every Jewish person I know is affected - either they know someone who was killed or kidnapped. It all feels very personal

@PurpleChrayne I'm so, so sorry. Were they the 12 years olds pictured on the BBC site? They seemed like very special, wonderful children.

As were all the child victims on both sides, I'm sure. So tragic all round.

A brilliant post. It’s people like you who will help bring about peace 🙏

100% agree!

100% agree!
Yep

I am c, broadly pro-Israel because antisemitism is a scourge and Jewish people should have a homeland.

What is happening to civilians in Gaza is a tragedy and I have empathy for everyone who is suffering in this terrible conflict. I do think that Hamas should be absolutely rooted out.

As an instinctively left-leaning person I am deeply saddened by the relentless focus of some on the left on Israel as uniquely oppressive, on Gaza as a focus of campaigning, and the antisemitism that runs through it all. I loathe the virtue signalling I see from people who just want to feel good about themselves (eg on social media not specifically on MN) and the lazy assumptions in my social groups that of course anyone who’s not a die-hard right-winger is ‘pro-Palestine’ - in fact, anti Israel.

I am grateful to all those MNers who are willing to approach the topic respectfully. Thank you.

Am an atheist living in Canada so geographically far removed but have Israeli friends living in Tel Aviv.
I’m pro the Israeli and Palestinians people and for their rights to their own land but am anti Hamas and the Israeli government.
I’d hope that no one thinks that an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one and vice versa?

@PurpleChrayne I just saw your post, and I am also very sorry to hear of these tragedies. It is a deeply painful time for Jewish people and the loss of innocent life is terrible.

@Sussurations Thank you for your post. As a left wing Jew I’ve found it really depressing.

I think there is such a blind spot on the part of some left wingers that their intense obsession with Palestine is quite frankly weird, when there are endless conflicts across the world. Civilians, including children are dying horribly across the globe. And that leads to the obvious question - if it’s not anti Semitism what is it??

It's the same reason most of the world eventually united in speaking out against South Africa. When you see a group being oppressed for generations people build up networks and groups and movements form in sympathy over decades. Palestine has linked in with political groups worldwide who sympathise with their cause over the years.

One of the interesting things about this thread is that it’s encouraging people with more moderate views to speak up . I’ve seen plenty of “ strong and definite” views on other threads … ..

I’m so sorry PurpleChrayne.

I'm a B - white British (and, for the record, a confirmed atheist!), but I was married to a Palestinian man for over a decade, and I used to live on the West Bank. Still have many lovely friends who are Palestinian, speak with them several times a week! I've known numerous Palestinians who've been either killed or imprisoned - some of them on the most ridiculous charges (or just never charged at all).

I also spent several years working for an Israeli company.

I've every empathy for Israeli civilians, no problem at all! I love Israeli leftist activists (and Palestinian ones, FWIW), they have taught me and inspired a lot of how I think about the conflict. As for the Netanyahu government and the IDF? I regret being an atheist when it comes to those people, because it means I don't believe in a hell for them!

And, no, I'm not a Hamas supporter - as a matter of fact, I already disliked them when Netanyahu still thought they were brilliant and "an asset". Mostly because of ... exactly that! In this one sense, I do agree with the war criminal!

All citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, should have the right to peaceful existence, safety, homes, equal human rights and respect. No inequality.

This is what I believe Palestinians and Israelis should have, in equal measure:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 1 Right to Equality
Article 2 Freedom from Discrimination
Article 3 Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security
Article 4 Freedom from Slavery
Article 5 Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment
Article 6 Right to Recognition as a Person before the Law
Article 7 Right to Equality before the Law
Article 8 Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal
Article 9 Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile
Article 10 Right to Fair Public Hearing
Article 11 Right to be Considered Innocent until Proven Guilty
Article 12 Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Article 13 Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country
Article 14 Right to Asylum in other Countries from Persecution
Article 15 Right to a Nationality and the Freedom to Change It
Article 16 Right to Marriage and Family
Article 17 Right to Own Property
Article 18 Freedom of Belief and Religion
Article 19 Freedom of Opinion and Information
Article 20 Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association
Article 21 Right to Participate in Government and in Free Elections
Article 22 Right to Social Security
Article 23 Right to Desirable Work and to Join Trade Unions
Article 24 Right to Rest and Leisure
Article 25 Right to Adequate Living Standard
Article 26 Right to Education
Article 27 Right to Participate in the Cultural Life of Community
Article 28 Right to a Social Order that Articulates this Document
Article 29 Community Duties Essential to Free and Full Development
Article 30 Freedom from State or Personal Interference in the above Rights

@Limeandsodaontherocks My views are pretty moderate (I think)! Well they don't feel entrenched anyway. I'm ethnically Jewish but not practising. Maybe I'd be more one-sided if I was religious or if my DH and kids were Jewish too and therefore possibly more of a target, but I don't think so.

I will however argue to my last breath for Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland, so I'm a Zionist in that respect (and if you think that makes me evil then so be it, I'm not going to get into an argument about what Zionism actually means to many UK Jews and how the word has been bastardised). So if I'm being honest, I have a natural Israel bias. However, it's bringing up some really complex feelings because I am genuinely horrified seeing what's happening to civilians in Gaza. And settler aggression infuriates me - I've long wished they would just fuck off out the West Bank and let Palestinians live their lives there in peace.

But my feelings on this are coming into direct collision with how much explicit antisemitism I'm witnessing, which has been absolutely jaw-dropping (and increasing in Europe for quite a few years now long before 7/10). I'm a lefty, so it's been pretty hard seeing so much of it coming from the left. My views on the protests are wholly negative now to be honest. Until the last week I didn't want them to stop but I do now. It's causing huge anxiety to the Jewish community. And seeing so much bad-faith posting and outright hate from some pro-Palestinian MNetters towards Jewish MNetters has been pretty challenging to say the least. (I could say a whole load more about that but won't). But having said that, I also really struggle with some of the more hawkish pro-Israel posters - Jewish and non-Jewish - because their views often feel so far removed from mine. I suppose in the same way I'm always going to clash with right-wingers in general about all sorts of issues. But it's quite simple for me - an Israeli and Palestinian life has equal value, and diplomacy can be the only way out of this.

So it's challenging to deal with what sometimes feels like quite conflicting views. I have always firmly believed in a 2 state solution and a change of govt in Israel is an urgent necessity. But fuck me, neither of these are looking very likely. Hamas absolutely need to be eliminated. I know what people think of the IDF but the brutality of Hamas is something altogether different. The blatant disregard and minimising of how absolutely disgusting events were on Oct 7 has been pretty appalling to see. How we get rid of Hamas I've no idea. I do support a ceasefire, although understand why others don't given potential ramifications. I don't know what the death toll is now in Gaza, maybe 14,000? There is not justification for that, none.

Thanks for this interesting thread, it seems good natured (so far)! @miniaturepixieonacid

See above for who I am and where I come from/stand now.

I can get behind pretty much all of what you're saying. Just not the bit about the IDF! Israelis tend not to know this (and, I suppose, there must be method in the madness, I suspect the gratuitous cruelty is being kept from them on purpose because ... how could people sleep at night?!). The IDF are absolutely no less cruel than Hamas! They kidnap, torture, randomly terrorise and, yes, sexually abuse people all the fucking time!

One of the worst days of my life, ever, was when they randomly grabbed my friend, X, and made him kneel - handcuffed and blindfolded - for hours. Eventually, I couldn't bear it anymore, so ... holding my British passport, hands above my head, and shouting loudly "don't shoot, I'm a British citizen, and I am just going to check on my friend" ... I approached. And the fuckers shot in front of my feet with live ammunition! Not to kill, to be clear - they could have killed me, or him, on the spot - but to scare me off. Well, they didn't! I guess they would have shot me, had it not been for someone in command realising just how atrocious the optics of "tiny blonde British woman shot to death for going to check on a victim of a human rights violation" would be. Had it not been for people actually filming.

Years later, the same IDF (different soldiers, obviously) taunted me that I had better "be nice to them" if I wanted them to let my husband go. They were holding him outside at 50 degree temperatures. For the crime of "being Palestinian" as we were just ... trying to get from Nablus to the Dead Sea for a fun day out! He was a British citizen by then (we were living in England and had just come to see the family).

Again, I agree with everything else you say. But, as for the IDF: they are no better than Hamas as far as the killing and gratuitously torturing people goes. They just get to do their killing, degrading, and torturing under the mantle of being a "state actor". "Most moral army" my arse!

Again ... everything else you say, I actually agree with. But the IDF are fucking horrible!

This is one of the better threads I have read on mumsnet. I would describe myself as pro Palestinian and went to my first march today which was local to me. This was an opportunity to march alongside like-minded people and also raise awareness of the plight of the Palestinians. The speeches spoke of humanity towards both sides and the equal values of lives. This I feel is so important. There are many on here who mourn October 7 and the hostages yet are silent on the plight of the Palestinians who have been suffering for years and Palestinian hostages which include children detained for years without charge and treated appallingly. A good start to peace would be humanity and an equal application of law to both sides.

@Rachna83
As someone who went on yesterday's march could you please describe the sentiment that was prevalent amongst those who attended ?

Was there anger ?
Did you encounter any examples of antisemitism?
Were the speeches mostly about peace ?
Were there any references to Israel in the speeches and if so were they antagonistic?
Do you feel it was a "hate march" ?
Thanks.

@miniaturepixieonacid I appreciate your open curiosity.

I'm a practicing Jewish young lady living in the UK with strong Pro-Israel views. I've lived in Israel for a few years, have lots of family and friends there and feel very connected to the place.

Each innocent child suffering is a tragedy. I strongly value the lives of all innocent civilians, both Palestinian and Israeli.
I see how Israel has no choice but to invade Gaza in order to uproot Hamas. I wish this could be carried out without innocent people being involved but in war that is unrealistic and civilians and kids are being caught on both sides. Until Hamas is destroyed I really don't think there is place for a ceasefire.

I see Israel as the (mostly) moral ones in this fight, and Hamas as the evil ones. Israel is doing its best to abide by international law. It's being continuously challenged on this front and Israel hasn't hesitated to show proof of its morality. Its frustrating that the IDF is held to a way higher accountability than any other army in the world. This is a form of antisemitism.

(Please don't bombard me with evidence of Israel's "war crimes". I've seen them all.)

I also know that anyone shouting "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is giving the same message as Hamas - asking for no Jews to remain in Israel. And as a Jewish woman living in the UK it is frightening that there are thousands around me who are supporting an organisation who wants my demise.

@untitledmum
There’s a march today against Antisemitism

One of the things I’m finding most depressing is the characterisation of Israel and Israelis as evil warmongers. Israeli society is complex, I do watch the pro-Palestinian marches and wonder how many people on them even know that the peace process stalled in the 1990s partly due to the assassination of Israel’s left wing PM Yitkhak Rabin by another Israeli - an extremist right wing settler
I didn't know about the assassination but that's very interesting.
One thing I've found very interesting the more I've read and watched about the history is how moderate Israeli voices over the decades seem to have been repeatedly undermined and sidelined by hard liners who have been obsessed with settlement building and pushing Palestinians out.

I sometimes find myself wondering how the situation would be different now if more tolerant and inclusive people were calling the shots. My gut says that they'd not have created the sort of boiling pot that Gaza is now.

one of the things that saddens and shocks me about this thread is how many people empathise with Israel’s ‘need ‘ to attack Gaza. As a pacifist Israel’s need to attack Gaza shocks me just as much as Hamas ‘need’ to attack Israel. ( and for people who conveniently start the clock on October 7th this has been going on dor
decades and started with the murder of thousands of Palestinians and forced expulsion of nearly a million ) They are both terrorist attacks and one will always fuel the other. Over 16000 civilians killed in Gaza whose family will want and deserve justice. To have justice when wronged is at the core of our existence. Who will give them justice and if they don’t have justice is it justified for them to take it in their own hands. Some posters posts reek of Israeli lives being worth more than a Palestinian life and the belief that some
lives are worth more than others in the core of everything that is wrong with this world .
Ive been to several marches and never seen any hate , there was an idiot that set of a firework at one but other that that extremely peaceful. I’ve marched side by side with many Jewish people. If these marches were full of hate why would they come. One Jewish lady I spoke to said she considered it antisemitic that anyone would even think she would support Israel’s mass killing and she was upset that Israel was hijacking Judaism which is a peaceful religion and against the killing of innocent civilians. I think this is a key point as by pro Israelis justifying the innocent slaughter of children they’re actually going against Judaism.

The ideology came long before that. The idea that Palestinians = security risk was pre emptive, and has always been the narrative behind the control of them as a population.
The right wing "terrorist" Israeli government has also been voted in. Do they represent everyone in Israel? No. But one could argue that they are more representative than Hamas is to Palestinians. The last Israeli election was only last year. This must mean that the majority of Israel see Palestinians as animals who need to killed and no memory of them left behind? Babies are terrorists from the womb? Radicalised from birth? A good Arab is a dead one? All public statements made by government officials.

To answer the original question, I have no links. I went to work there more than 20 years ago thinking it was "complicated". I lived with both sides. Very few people in that situation come away thinking it's 'complicated'. On the contrary, it's very clear. Israel has the mission of oppressing the Palestinians and making their ability to self determination nigh on impossible. This isn't about taking sides or being "pro" whatever. It's a basic human rights issue.

No, it will not be justified if they take justice into their own hands. That would almost be like saying that Hamas didn't do anything wrong on 7th October, which they obviously did. Seeing as you're a pacifist, I'd think you'd agree with that, no?

Your whole post is incredibly inflammatory - I mean, you start by rounding up 700 000 to "nearly a million" just to prove a point. That's quite a jump. That's also not where the start of this is, unless you're someone who believes Israel shouldn't exist. There have always been Jews in Israel. They have just, for the most part, been second class citizens and ruled by others.

You're also the only one on here who has said anything about Israeli lives being worth more than Palestinian lives. You're just seeing whatever you want to see, whatever will keep your immense hatred of Israel going. Your rhetoric right now isn't the kind that will help achieve peace.