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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Freedom of speech you say?

498 replies

Ohlalalalala · 22/11/2023 17:16

So it's OK for famous/ less famous people to back one side but not OK for others to back another side?

These are just a few examples of how pressures/ firings are directed at those criticising Israel. Is this normal? What the heck is happening? Is this to silence anyone from voicing what they think is the truth?

BBC News - Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Susan Sarandon
https://deadline.com/2023/11/susan-sarandon-pro-palestinian-remarks-uta-dropped-1235632398/

Agent Maha Dakhil
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/tom-cruise-agent-maha-dakhil-palestine-b2451581.html

I would have understood if they imposed a kind of blanket gag order on all actors/ celebrities not to discuss the conflict.

But!

This is happening while hundreds of others publically supported Israel and were instead celebrated.

McCarthyite witch hunt, I say.

Melissa Barrera at the Los Angeles premiere of "Carmen" held at the Linwood Dunn Theatre on April 20, 2023 in Los Angeles, California

Melissa Barrera: Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts

Melissa Barrera is sacked from the film sequel for posts the production company say were antisemitic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Murica · 23/11/2023 14:52

Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 13:43

Thank you!

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Susan Sarandon was not fired. Her agency decided they would no longer work for her. Related to Free Speech in the US, we also have freedom of association. You can quit a job for any reason you like.

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 14:55

stormy4319trevor · 23/11/2023 13:30

@MorrisZapp I am actually concerned about the octopus, since many people are very fond of them and the more we find out about them the more fascinating they are. I think it's unfortunate it has been demonised as it actually needs protection. I really hope it isn't negatively affected - surely a creature can not be anti-semitic, and yet it seems to some social media users it is, (or can be called so.)

Just depends on context of how it is used and who is using it etc

It is an animal so no it won't be cancelled

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 14:59

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 13:38

Even Corbyn, who can’t spot a massive antisemtic mural when it’s right under his nose conceded that there were antisemites who were deliberately using Zionist to mean Jew and therefore it was a word best avoided.

And one of the most famous fighters against racism said it years ago

Why in 2023 some people think it is ok to bang on about Zionist or use it to replace the word Jew I don't understand

Freedom of speech you say?
Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 15:04

Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 13:43

Thank you!

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People are literally talking about free speech and abuses of it. So not derailing at all

You are both only seem to what to talk about free speech if it suits your own narrative and complain if it doesn't

Again I think people are not surprised

feralunderclass · 23/11/2023 15:14

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 14:59

And one of the most famous fighters against racism said it years ago

Why in 2023 some people think it is ok to bang on about Zionist or use it to replace the word Jew I don't understand

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This idea that a word actually means something else, so we can't use it, makes matters very confusing. Why would someone call a Jew a Zionist instead? Not all Zionists are Jewish, and not all Jews are Zionist. It seems to be another way to censor. I've said this before, but when I wrote something academic my supervisor said I shouldn't call Jews Jews or Jewish people and should call them Israelis instead. How was I supposed to address Jewish people who aren't Israeli, I asked? "Hmm, that's difficult" he said 🤔.

25milesfromhome · 23/11/2023 16:18

Hmm, it’s a mystery- maybe your supervisor was trying to help you disguise any inherent anti-Jewish bias in your academic paper by using ‘Israelis’ instead. Who knows? I’m quite surprised you don’t know what Zionism means as you seem to have studied Jews so intently. Have you considered making a complaint to your academic dept about inadequate teaching?

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:22

Why would someone call a Jew a Zionist instead?

So they can pretend that they're not being antisemitic when they talk about Zionists controlling the media, or politicians or secretly ruling the world. You know, the good old antisemitic tropes.

Dinkydaisy1 · 23/11/2023 16:25

feralunderclass · 23/11/2023 15:14

This idea that a word actually means something else, so we can't use it, makes matters very confusing. Why would someone call a Jew a Zionist instead? Not all Zionists are Jewish, and not all Jews are Zionist. It seems to be another way to censor. I've said this before, but when I wrote something academic my supervisor said I shouldn't call Jews Jews or Jewish people and should call them Israelis instead. How was I supposed to address Jewish people who aren't Israeli, I asked? "Hmm, that's difficult" he said 🤔.

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Agree, its a way to censor and shut down any criticism.

Original poster
Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 16:34

25milesfromhome · 23/11/2023 16:18

Hmm, it’s a mystery- maybe your supervisor was trying to help you disguise any inherent anti-Jewish bias in your academic paper by using ‘Israelis’ instead. Who knows? I’m quite surprised you don’t know what Zionism means as you seem to have studied Jews so intently. Have you considered making a complaint to your academic dept about inadequate teaching?

Do you know that the poster has a legal background and worked in human rights in Palestine/ Israel? Why are you so intent on smearing her? She has lived experience and she has been nothing but polite and factual even though you and others keep attacking her and branding her antisemitic.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 16:34

Dinkydaisy1 · 23/11/2023 16:25

Agree, its a way to censor and shut down any criticism.

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Yes it is.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 16:37

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:22

Why would someone call a Jew a Zionist instead?

So they can pretend that they're not being antisemitic when they talk about Zionists controlling the media, or politicians or secretly ruling the world. You know, the good old antisemitic tropes.

Following your logic that every Jew is a Zionist, would you call Chomsky, Pappé and Finkelstein, to name just a few, Zionists too?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:43

Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 16:37

Following your logic that every Jew is a Zionist, would you call Chomsky, Pappé and Finkelstein, to name just a few, Zionists too?

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No, it's not my logic that every Jew is a Zionist.

I'm saying that it's a known tactic of antisemites to talk about 'Zionists' when really they mean Jews.

25milesfromhome · 23/11/2023 16:43

Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 16:34

Do you know that the poster has a legal background and worked in human rights in Palestine/ Israel? Why are you so intent on smearing her? She has lived experience and she has been nothing but polite and factual even though you and others keep attacking her and branding her antisemitic.

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Honestly, she’s doing such an excellent job of that all by herself no effort from me is required.
🤣 “polite and factual” 🤣

CeilingWacks · 23/11/2023 17:03

Kendodd · 23/11/2023 08:25

How could Hamas stop this at any minute? Even if they released all the hostages Israel has said they will continue the war. Do you mean Hamas surrender?

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Yes, I think the terrorist organisation Hamas should surrender their stated aim of the total destruction of Israel. I didn't realise that was a controversial opinion.

Dinkydaisy1 · 23/11/2023 17:31

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:43

No, it's not my logic that every Jew is a Zionist.

I'm saying that it's a known tactic of antisemites to talk about 'Zionists' when really they mean Jews.

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So you can read everybody's mind?

What about Jewish people who oppose zionism? Are they anti semites?

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:34

So you can read everybody's mind?

No. I'm saying it's a known tactic of antisemites to say Zionist when they mean Jew.

Do you not know this pretty basic stuff?

bness · 23/11/2023 17:37

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:43

No, it's not my logic that every Jew is a Zionist.

I'm saying that it's a known tactic of antisemites to talk about 'Zionists' when really they mean Jews.

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Sorry but that's just sheer stupidity and silencing of fact. You can criticise Saudi Arabia for its human rights abuses without being Islamophobic. But you can't criticise Zionist policies without having anti semitism accusations - its just silencing legitimate criticism, that's it. I can respect Jewish people and Judaism as a religion ( it is an Abrahamic faith) while abhorring the policies of Zionism and Zionists, much like criticising Modis fascist policies doesn't make me anti hindu or irans forcing women to wear headscarf islamophobic.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:39

Nope, you're entirely misunderstanding me.

It is a well known tactic of antisemites to use the word Zionist when they mean Jew.

So they'll say 'The Zionist project is worried that they're losing their grip on the world media'

When actually they really mean the Jews, and the Jews controlling the world media is a well known antisemitic trope.

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 17:41

bness · 23/11/2023 17:37

Sorry but that's just sheer stupidity and silencing of fact. You can criticise Saudi Arabia for its human rights abuses without being Islamophobic. But you can't criticise Zionist policies without having anti semitism accusations - its just silencing legitimate criticism, that's it. I can respect Jewish people and Judaism as a religion ( it is an Abrahamic faith) while abhorring the policies of Zionism and Zionists, much like criticising Modis fascist policies doesn't make me anti hindu or irans forcing women to wear headscarf islamophobic.

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You are really overcomplicating this. Way back in the nineteenth century oposing Zionism might gave been a reasonable position. Now that the State of Israel has been around for decades, the Hamas position is completely unreasonable.

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 17:42

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:39

Nope, you're entirely misunderstanding me.

It is a well known tactic of antisemites to use the word Zionist when they mean Jew.

So they'll say 'The Zionist project is worried that they're losing their grip on the world media'

When actually they really mean the Jews, and the Jews controlling the world media is a well known antisemitic trope.

Their not controling it very well over the past weeks, are they?

TopicalNameChange · 23/11/2023 17:43

@noblegiraffe I understand what you mean. Everyone understands you, it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. You are right, it is antisemitic.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:44

Here's Corbyn saying the same thing.

"In a statement issued on Friday night, Corbyn said he had used the term Zionist “in the accurate political sense and not as a euphemism for Jewish people”.
He added: “I am now more careful with how I might use the term ‘Zionist’ because a once self-identifying political term has been increasingly hijacked by antisemites as code for Jews.”"

So if you know this, and you see a guy on the street shouting (as in one viral video) that Keir Starmer voted against a ceasefire because his wife is a Zionist and told him what to do

Then you can see that because Jews controlling people is a well-known antisemitic trope that he is using Zionist when he means Jew.

bness · 23/11/2023 17:48

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 17:41

You are really overcomplicating this. Way back in the nineteenth century oposing Zionism might gave been a reasonable position. Now that the State of Israel has been around for decades, the Hamas position is completely unreasonable.

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I'm not talking about Hamas. I can be against Israels tactics and practices and Zionist ideology on its own.

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 18:51

bness · 23/11/2023 17:48

I'm not talking about Hamas. I can be against Israels tactics and practices and Zionist ideology on its own.

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What do you mean by Zionist ideology? Why not just criticise the Isreali government, if that is what you mean?