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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Lamelie · 05/12/2023 22:16

Haven’t read the article but it wouldn’t surprise me. I’ve been hiding my Star of David in London and I’m looking forward to wearing in Italy next week.

ssd · 05/12/2023 22:20

I don't know anyone who denied 7 oct happened. Its been well documented and the rapes now being uncovered are absolutely sickening. What these young people went through is horrendous and the families tortured and murdered too. I didn't realise anyone is denying what happened. It was unspeakable.
But it is being overshadowed by the amount of murders happening in Gaza and that is no ones fault but the Israeli government. They have created a response to this terrible attack that only the most pro Israel supporters are happy with. Most other people are horrified at the thousands being slaughtered or displaced and homeless.
And it doesn't make someone antisemitic to acknowledge that.

Trulywonderful · 05/12/2023 22:22

But...

Depdawg · 05/12/2023 22:25

So much for Palestinian lives are not worth more than Israeli lives and vice versa.
The atrocities of 7/10 will never be overshadowed. What a charming turn of phrase.

Queucumber · 05/12/2023 22:25

the rapes now being uncovered are absolutely sickening

They aren’t being ‘uncovered’. They’re finally being acknowledged by people and institutions who responded with a deafening silence to the horrific violence. They’re finally being acknowledged by those who claimed they were lies or exaggerations because Israel wouldn’t publish images of violated corpses.

Depdawg · 05/12/2023 22:27

Queucumber · 05/12/2023 22:25

the rapes now being uncovered are absolutely sickening

They aren’t being ‘uncovered’. They’re finally being acknowledged by people and institutions who responded with a deafening silence to the horrific violence. They’re finally being acknowledged by those who claimed they were lies or exaggerations because Israel wouldn’t publish images of violated corpses.

They are being seriously disbelieved on another thread.
It's shocking. I'm ashamed to be a woman, at the moment.

Trulywonderful · 05/12/2023 22:38

Queucumber · 05/12/2023 22:25

the rapes now being uncovered are absolutely sickening

They aren’t being ‘uncovered’. They’re finally being acknowledged by people and institutions who responded with a deafening silence to the horrific violence. They’re finally being acknowledged by those who claimed they were lies or exaggerations because Israel wouldn’t publish images of violated corpses.

This

Well said

stomachameleon · 05/12/2023 23:06

@ssd they are not being 'overshadowed' for me nor just being 'uncovered'.
Ridiculous and minimising.

ssd · 05/12/2023 23:06

Depdawg · 05/12/2023 22:25

So much for Palestinian lives are not worth more than Israeli lives and vice versa.
The atrocities of 7/10 will never be overshadowed. What a charming turn of phrase.

Of course the oct 7 atrocities have been overshadowed by what happened and what is happening right now.

1,200 people murdered on oct 7th in Israel

15,500 people murdered since oct 7th by Israel

If that isn't overshadowed i don't know what to call it.

No life is more important than another and every single person murdered was loved and adored by someone.

But pretending the killings in Gaza doesn't overshadow the killings in Israel by the sheer quantities involved is silly and plain wrong.

No matter how you want to spin it.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2023 23:10

What was overshadowing them on 8th October?

Trulywonderful · 06/12/2023 01:15

Personally I don't think either can overshadow one another. They both are horrific and most people can and will be horrified by both

I keep saying it but some don't seem to listen. Most people can think about and talk about more than one situation or event. They can also care and have empathy about more more than one thing

No overshadowing. Just the world waking up and acknowledging sexual abuse and rape that they should have acknowledged weeks ago

Plus this conflict and the trauma and the tragedy isn't a competition or comparing exercise. We can feel pain and hurt for Israelis and Gazens. We don't need to be 100% pro anything. In fact being 100% pro makes lose their fucking mind and condone deaths and rapes or try to discredit evidence that is overwhelming

Trulywonderful · 06/12/2023 01:39

Whilst the world is busy looking at the proxy war Iran and the west funded, Iran has been busy

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
SomeCatFromJapan · 06/12/2023 07:46

Oh yay, another Electronic Intifada link.

ritenuto · 06/12/2023 09:05

The interview is with Colonel Nof Erez with Haaretz

XRAYTHIS · 06/12/2023 16:59

I listened to his full interview, he doesn't actually say what the headline says. He confirms what a mass hanibal is and says it was difficult to coordinate a response and that several units were diwn (presumably murdered).

OreoTheKitty · 06/12/2023 23:07

@ssd But it is being overshadowed by the amount of murders happening in Gaza and that is no ones fault but the Israeli government.

How many bombs would Israel be dropping on Gaza right now if October 7 never happened? (Zero. The answer is zero).

And you make no mention of Hamas cynically putting their own people in harms way in the form of human shields, or the fact that they kill their own people when the rockets they fire on Israeli civilians don’t make it to their intended targets, or that they use snipers to kill their own people in cold blood when they attempt to go take the IDF’s advice to flee? No on these deaths you are suspiciously silent.

Hamas leaders have made the following statements:

"This attests to the character of our noble, jihad-loving people - who defend their rights and their homes with their bare chests and their blood...The policy of people confronting the Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation...we in Hamas call upon our people to adopt this policy in order to protect the Palestinian homes." - Hamas senior spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri, al-Agsa TV, June 2014

"The enemies of Allah do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life." - Fathi Hamad, former interior minister of the Gaza Strip and current Hamas MP, 2008

Has it occurred to you that perhaps Hamas exploits the deaths of their own people to garner world sympathy - and aid? Palestinian whistleblowers in Gaza seem to think so:

“The so-called resistance has become a business... [Hamas] made a profit out of it, and only the people suffered... Whenever there's a war, and when [Hamas get more aid money, they re the ones who benefit, and we get nothing." - whistleblower in Whispered in Gaza interview series (raw footage verified by Al Arabiya, Arab News, and Times of Israel)

”Hamas may have a budget deficit, so they start a war so Qatar will get involved and send them money." - whistleblower in Whispered in Gaza interview series (raw footage verified by Al Arabiya, Arab News, and Times of Israel)

There is a massive difference between the absolutely horrifying brutalization and torture of Israeli women, children and men that Hamas inflicted on our people face to face and the death of Palestinians in Gaza as a consequence of airstrikes targeting the perpetrators who cynically use their people as shields.

If you are person of conscience, you will see the moral difference very clearly.

ssd · 08/12/2023 20:45

There is a massive difference between the absolutely horrifying brutalization and torture of Israeli women, children and men that Hamas inflicted on our people face to face and the death of Palestinians in Gaza as a consequence of airstrikes targeting the perpetrators who cynically use their people as shields.

Wow. Says it all really.

Trulywonderful · 08/12/2023 21:44

Personally I would have highlighted in some way what was being quoted

Thought the poster had suddenly changed opinion there for a minute

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 22:02

@Trulywonderful ohhhhhh that's what happened. I was wondering.....

OreoTheKitty · 08/12/2023 23:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/12/2023 23:52

Here are Hamas' doctrine(s) in English for those who want to read them themselves

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas

Doctrine of Hamas

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas

stomachameleon · 09/12/2023 00:15

@OreoTheKitty sorry for your loss x

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