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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
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26
3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:16

etmoiandme · 23/11/2023 17:12

I politely suggest you look into Kit Klarenberg a bit more before quoting him as a reliable, unbiased source.

That’s just a forwarded x link I took from another board. The video itself is a bbc piece done last week I think. Its on bbc iplayer. BBC verified the programme is called.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:23

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:14

However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp.

Eh? But they are well known for it?

Here, read this report by Amnesty International from 2015 detailing exactly the sorts of people Hamas are.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/webfm/Documents/issues/embargoed_report_2015_strangling_necks.pdf?VersionId=P1UhUPtoDsugXg8dywgqM16v9v6LozhZ

It contains 24 references to Al-Shifa hospital.

So this further proves that they can’t be hiding in there now? So, why are they bombing the hospital again and again? Why are so many injured Palestinians being killed?
If the report by amnesty says they were there in 2015. They were dealt with back then. They were removed and the tunnels were sealed and protected from Hamas by the idf back in 2015. You’re not trying to say that they were found to be hiding in the tunnels in 2015, and have just been left there to continue their work?? So Hamas have had permission to use the tunnels since 2015?
So actually that proves that report proves the Israeli government knows there’s nothing to be found in the tunnels now.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:24

etmoiandme · 23/11/2023 17:12

I politely suggest you look into Kit Klarenberg a bit more before quoting him as a reliable, unbiased source.

Like I said before, I never quoted him as an unbiased source. It’s just a forwarded link I got from another board. But here you are, or you can just watch the original on bbc iplayer.
https://x.com/worldwidestatss/status/1725583781489222053?s=46&t=eApyQwxkdiGUWJcyEmIdVA

basculin · 23/11/2023 17:28

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:16

That’s just a forwarded x link I took from another board. The video itself is a bbc piece done last week I think. Its on bbc iplayer. BBC verified the programme is called.

So you just randomly spam links to twitter posts without bothering to look and where and who they come from? If it's on twitter it must be true, right?

etmoiandme · 23/11/2023 17:30

@3and2ready Thanks.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:30

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:23

So this further proves that they can’t be hiding in there now? So, why are they bombing the hospital again and again? Why are so many injured Palestinians being killed?
If the report by amnesty says they were there in 2015. They were dealt with back then. They were removed and the tunnels were sealed and protected from Hamas by the idf back in 2015. You’re not trying to say that they were found to be hiding in the tunnels in 2015, and have just been left there to continue their work?? So Hamas have had permission to use the tunnels since 2015?
So actually that proves that report proves the Israeli government knows there’s nothing to be found in the tunnels now.

Who says Hamas were "dealt with" back then? What are you on about?

Here's a British doctor who worked at Al Shifa in 2019 confirming that Hamas were present at the hospital then too. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/doctor-who-worked-at-gaza-s-shifa-hospital-says-some-areas-were-off-limits/ar-AA1keNZD

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/doctor-who-worked-at-gaza-s-shifa-hospital-says-some-areas-were-off-limits/ar-AA1keNZD

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:33

You’re not trying to say that they were found to be hiding in the tunnels in 2015, and have just been left there to continue their work?? So Hamas have had permission to use the tunnels since 2015?

Hang on, who do you think is in charge of Gaza?

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:40

basculin · 23/11/2023 17:28

So you just randomly spam links to twitter posts without bothering to look and where and who they come from? If it's on twitter it must be true, right?

Can you not read? 🤦‍♀️ I said it’s an official bbc news report. I didn’t know how to send the iplayer link so I quickly typed in: bbc exposes idf hospital into X and sent the first link. It doesn’t matter who has reposted it in X. Hundreds of people have reposted the bbc news report. That’s not the point. What only matters is the fact that it’s the bbc that are reluctant to believe the idf claims in their videos.
because some people like you take a while to understand that it’s just a link that’s been forwarded thousands of times I also posted a new link. If that doesn’t help you then go to bbc iplayer and find it yourself. It’s the exact same report 🤦‍♀️

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:48

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:30

Who says Hamas were "dealt with" back then? What are you on about?

Here's a British doctor who worked at Al Shifa in 2019 confirming that Hamas were present at the hospital then too. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/doctor-who-worked-at-gaza-s-shifa-hospital-says-some-areas-were-off-limits/ar-AA1keNZD

So Israel claimed back in 2015 that Hamas were in the hospital? And Israel, who the entire world cannot stop from bombing innocent civilians, just let Hamas continue their work there? You think we are going to believe that? Hamas worked comfortably at Al shifa hospital for almost a decade, whilst the idf and Israeli government knew they were there and what they were doing? You actually think anyone’s going to believe this?
Also, have you actually read the report yourself? I think you might want to read how accurate the methodology was behind writing the report.
Amnesty have declared they were prohibited from going into Gaza by Israel. They tried in many occasions but were not allowed. Eventually they just wrote a report based upon Israeli, idf and Palestinian eye witnesses. Israel don’t let amnesty or any external agency into Gaza for decades, and you insinuate that Israel doesn’t control Gaza? For goodness sakes, read the report yourself first. You’ve just made the Israeli government look even more sketchy than they were before.
Think that speaks volumes doesn’t it? Why won’t Israel let them into the Gaza and show them the evidence of Hamas and what they’ve done?
makes sense now, Israel have never allowed an independent unbiased group of people into Gaza. They only dictate to them what their version of events are and then reports are written based upon that.
there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

basculin · 23/11/2023 17:49

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:40

Can you not read? 🤦‍♀️ I said it’s an official bbc news report. I didn’t know how to send the iplayer link so I quickly typed in: bbc exposes idf hospital into X and sent the first link. It doesn’t matter who has reposted it in X. Hundreds of people have reposted the bbc news report. That’s not the point. What only matters is the fact that it’s the bbc that are reluctant to believe the idf claims in their videos.
because some people like you take a while to understand that it’s just a link that’s been forwarded thousands of times I also posted a new link. If that doesn’t help you then go to bbc iplayer and find it yourself. It’s the exact same report 🤦‍♀️

You're still posting random twitter links. You dont care whose twitter account you're posting, you just scroll until you find something that suits your narrative and automatically take it at face value. In this case someone filed their tv with their phone, uploaded a tiny blurry photo to tiktop which was then posted on twitter by a guy named "broseph stalin" which was then retweeted by a Hamas supporting "journalist". Which was then posted on MN by you.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:54

there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

So you're now disbelieving both Amnesty International and the Palestinians they interviewed?

What, do you think Hamas were a nice friendly non-torturing group of pals who just happened to become added to proscribed terrorist group lists by accident?

That the October 7th attack came out of nowhere as they had no reputation for anything bad before that?

And that it's Israel's fault that Hamas were operating in Gaza?

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:54

Do you never watch bbc verified? Or bbc news in general? Don’t you have the bbc news app on your phone perhaps? It’s not an impersonator in a fake bbc news studio. Doesn’t matter you leave it. I wouldn’t stress about it if I was you. No need for you to look at the bbc news report if you haven’t already seen it which was on the front page of their bbc news app for a few days a couple of weeks ago.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:58

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:54

there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

So you're now disbelieving both Amnesty International and the Palestinians they interviewed?

What, do you think Hamas were a nice friendly non-torturing group of pals who just happened to become added to proscribed terrorist group lists by accident?

That the October 7th attack came out of nowhere as they had no reputation for anything bad before that?

And that it's Israel's fault that Hamas were operating in Gaza?

Read the report will you. Why post something when you don’t even know what else is written in it.
Israel didn’t allow amnesty into Israel to conduct their own unbiased investigation and make observations for themselves. This happened in 2015 (thanks for the report you linked) and is clearly happening now. BBC news reporters weren’t allowed free access to the hospital last week.
it’s this very controlling behaviour that makes you sure that Israel are lying. Thanks for pointing that out by sending the link for that report 👍🏽

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
basculin · 23/11/2023 18:18

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:54

Do you never watch bbc verified? Or bbc news in general? Don’t you have the bbc news app on your phone perhaps? It’s not an impersonator in a fake bbc news studio. Doesn’t matter you leave it. I wouldn’t stress about it if I was you. No need for you to look at the bbc news report if you haven’t already seen it which was on the front page of their bbc news app for a few days a couple of weeks ago.

Then link to the bbc, not to dodgy twitter accounts.

I take iyou're r not the poster from another thread who kept insisting the BBC couldn't be trusted because everything they showed had to go through the IDF, but ignored repeated requests to back that up.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:28

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:58

Read the report will you. Why post something when you don’t even know what else is written in it.
Israel didn’t allow amnesty into Israel to conduct their own unbiased investigation and make observations for themselves. This happened in 2015 (thanks for the report you linked) and is clearly happening now. BBC news reporters weren’t allowed free access to the hospital last week.
it’s this very controlling behaviour that makes you sure that Israel are lying. Thanks for pointing that out by sending the link for that report 👍🏽

Edited

So when, as you posted, Amnesty International conducted interviews with ex Hamas detainees, prisoners' families, witnesses to abuse, using their fieldworker in Gaza, and when they examined the court proceedings, medial records, death certificates, documentation from other agencies etc etc, actually what happened was they were being controlled by Israel to publish a fictional report that made Hamas look bad?

That's what you think happened?

Xenia · 23/11/2023 18:28

The anti Israel element on MN has absolutely astounded me. I am glad people from all political positions are posting so we can all get to the facts.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 18:45

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:28

So when, as you posted, Amnesty International conducted interviews with ex Hamas detainees, prisoners' families, witnesses to abuse, using their fieldworker in Gaza, and when they examined the court proceedings, medial records, death certificates, documentation from other agencies etc etc, actually what happened was they were being controlled by Israel to publish a fictional report that made Hamas look bad?

That's what you think happened?

What do you think was the reason they didn’t allow Amnesty International into Gaza when they continually asked them for months? Why did they prevent them from going in?

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 18:52

@basculin

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
ProvincialLady1 · 23/11/2023 18:58

Thank you. I'm not going to read the replies because from experience most threads on this board are not exactly full of well-wishers, but thank you for posting this. It's very important that the reality of what happened is documented. Flowers

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:58

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 18:45

What do you think was the reason they didn’t allow Amnesty International into Gaza when they continually asked them for months? Why did they prevent them from going in?

At a guess because they didn't want Amnesty reporting on the war crimes that they detail Israel committing in the segment that you posted?

However, I haven't the faintest idea why you think that means that Amnesty would have published a fictional report saying that Hamas are bad.

Do you think the report is fictional and that the detainees, families, witnesses etc that they interviewed and the evidence of the torture and murders committed by Hamas are fake? That Hamas don't actually torture and murder people?

Or is it just that you disbelieve the bit where they tortured and murdered people at Al Shifa?

ProvincialLady1 · 23/11/2023 19:06

ProvincialLady1 · 23/11/2023 18:58

Thank you. I'm not going to read the replies because from experience most threads on this board are not exactly full of well-wishers, but thank you for posting this. It's very important that the reality of what happened is documented. Flowers

(To clarify, I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli but I do feel very deeply about this).

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 19:15

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:48

So Israel claimed back in 2015 that Hamas were in the hospital? And Israel, who the entire world cannot stop from bombing innocent civilians, just let Hamas continue their work there? You think we are going to believe that? Hamas worked comfortably at Al shifa hospital for almost a decade, whilst the idf and Israeli government knew they were there and what they were doing? You actually think anyone’s going to believe this?
Also, have you actually read the report yourself? I think you might want to read how accurate the methodology was behind writing the report.
Amnesty have declared they were prohibited from going into Gaza by Israel. They tried in many occasions but were not allowed. Eventually they just wrote a report based upon Israeli, idf and Palestinian eye witnesses. Israel don’t let amnesty or any external agency into Gaza for decades, and you insinuate that Israel doesn’t control Gaza? For goodness sakes, read the report yourself first. You’ve just made the Israeli government look even more sketchy than they were before.
Think that speaks volumes doesn’t it? Why won’t Israel let them into the Gaza and show them the evidence of Hamas and what they’ve done?
makes sense now, Israel have never allowed an independent unbiased group of people into Gaza. They only dictate to them what their version of events are and then reports are written based upon that.
there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

Edited

Erm, let me think, why has the Israeli government not dealt with the Hamas base underneath a hospital before? I mean they could have bombed it any time between 2015 and now? I wonder why the didn't?

Because it's underneath a hospital! That's why!! Believe it or not, the Israelis don't actually want to bomb a hospital. That's why Hamas put it there in the first place! Do you really not get this!!!!

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 19:16

It's honestly scary how fucking deluded people seem to be about hamas/gaza

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 19:17

@firstpasttheposter Star absolutely

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 19:21

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 19:16

It's honestly scary how fucking deluded people seem to be about hamas/gaza

The world just doesn't understand terrorism. No matter what terrorists, no matter what depths they sink to, people just explain it away as 'oh, they didn't really mean to do that, that's just their enemies exagerating to make them look bad! They're really just freedom fighters trying to look after the oppressed.'