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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
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26
OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:12

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:09

@OuiOuiKitty I asked for it to be deleted when I realised it wasn't necessarily true - I try to be careful of my sources and as this one had been in the MSM (Jerusalem Post), I posted it. They have since retracted.
I didn't see another poster saying that.

I don't think you have a leg to stand on though given that you're mostly on threads where people are posting posting screeds and screeds of completely unverified instagram and tiktok, and Electronic Intifada links. I at least have the intellectual honesty correct any errors I've made, not double down.

Edited

It was up for almost 24hrs after you posted it. You realised your mistake within 20minutes. You replied to the poster who said that so yes you did see it. You haven't answered my question though, what was your motive for posting it? Why when you know 1000s of children have died did you jump on one fake news story about a dead baby being a doll?

I don't post any links so I don't know what legs you are talking about.

Trulywonderful · 03/12/2023 20:12

.

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:12

im just surprised that this is would come from an Israel newspaper and doubt they’d make it up just to attack the government

Haaretz tends left/critical of the Israeli government in general.

not sure why you’re mentioning sexual violence when myself and the tweet I link doesn’t mention it.

This is a thread about 10/7 denialism and one of the most shocking aspect was the widespread denial of the sexual assaults. It is only in the last day or two that major international organisations like the UN have acknowledged what occured, so it's pretty relevant to this thread.

stomachameleon · 03/12/2023 20:13

@EasterIssland I can't work out if it's 'opinion' Piece which they have lots of.

I have read half of one on the fact Hamas changed the truce deal and that's why it folded.
'Hamas needed to prolong the ceasefire but refused to pay the price'
It's quite clickbaity.

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:14

@OuiOuiKitty I posted a correction within minutes of posting the original link though, I didn't let it stand uncorrected.

I'm talking about just about every single thread about Israel - it's a non-stop screed of completely unverified social media links and propaganda.

Could you please stop derailing this thread now.

EasterIssland · 03/12/2023 20:16

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:12

im just surprised that this is would come from an Israel newspaper and doubt they’d make it up just to attack the government

Haaretz tends left/critical of the Israeli government in general.

not sure why you’re mentioning sexual violence when myself and the tweet I link doesn’t mention it.

This is a thread about 10/7 denialism and one of the most shocking aspect was the widespread denial of the sexual assaults. It is only in the last day or two that major international organisations like the UN have acknowledged what occured, so it's pretty relevant to this thread.

.
yes I know they’re critical. But I take If they made that up they’d lose total credit and doubt teh government / citizens would be happy with them.

regarding the sexual violence , that’s ok but again I want to clarify that the denial of sexual violence doesn’t apply to my comment or the link I have posted.

EasterIssland · 03/12/2023 20:17

stomachameleon · 03/12/2023 20:13

@EasterIssland I can't work out if it's 'opinion' Piece which they have lots of.

I have read half of one on the fact Hamas changed the truce deal and that's why it folded.
'Hamas needed to prolong the ceasefire but refused to pay the price'
It's quite clickbaity.

Thanks @stomachameleon as said I don’t have access to the news myself so couldn’t verify it

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:17

You replied to the poster who said that so yes you did see it.

Someone said they'd seen it, yes, they didn't specify that they thought it was fake.

I posted it because I thought it was verified, and I was puzzled by it, and I specifically acknowledged the loss of life in my post, if you'd like to check.

stomachameleon · 03/12/2023 20:18

@OuiOuiKitty whether you like it or not propaganda is a big thing at the moment and fake pictures have been posted by both sides.

@SomeCatFromJapan apologised. And it was removed. What more do you want? Should they apologise through the medium of dance? Stop hounding.

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:19

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:14

@OuiOuiKitty I posted a correction within minutes of posting the original link though, I didn't let it stand uncorrected.

I'm talking about just about every single thread about Israel - it's a non-stop screed of completely unverified social media links and propaganda.

Could you please stop derailing this thread now.

If you don't want to answer the question then just say so. It is hypocritical of you to 'wonder' about posters doing the same thing you do though.

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:20

I already answered you. I posted it because I was puzzled by it given that there had clearly been significant genuine loss of life.

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:20

stomachameleon · 03/12/2023 20:18

@OuiOuiKitty whether you like it or not propaganda is a big thing at the moment and fake pictures have been posted by both sides.

@SomeCatFromJapan apologised. And it was removed. What more do you want? Should they apologise through the medium of dance? Stop hounding.

I asked her a question. I think it is pretty clear what I wanted. I wanted to know her motives for doing it, the same way she wanted to know another poster's motives. She doesn't want to answer the question and that's fair enough, I don't think I would either.

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:21

For the third fucking time. I was confused why there would be (what was claimed to be) fake scenes given that there are presumably ample real bodies.

stomachameleon · 03/12/2023 20:22

@EasterIssland that's why it makes me chuckle when people say that you can't have an opinion in Israel that isn't pro government. That is not the case.

OuiOuiKitty · 03/12/2023 20:24

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:21

For the third fucking time. I was confused why there would be (what was claimed to be) fake scenes given that there are presumably ample real bodies.

Sound. I am sure you have learnt you lesson and won't be posting anymore fake news that 'puzzles you'. Generally fake news does that, because you know it's fake.

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:26

Sound. I am sure you have learnt you lesson and won't be posting anymore fake news that 'puzzles you'. Generally fake news does that, because you know it's fake.

Tell you what, you carry on carefully monitoring my posts and keep me right if you feel I'm not "learned my lesson" adequately.
Maybe I should likewise start monitoring some of the other threads. I'm sure that nothing but completely veriafiable events from legitimate news sources are posted.

I should probably also check that everyone who was losing their shit when a stray Hamas rocket landed on the hospital car park, likewise apologised and had their posts withdrawn. They did, right?

stomachameleon · 03/12/2023 20:27

That's a bit mean. There has been lots on here that's 'fake' and people adamant it
Isn't from very dodgy sources.

They apologised straight away. I am sure it was the post above.

Trulywonderful · 03/12/2023 20:30

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:26

Sound. I am sure you have learnt you lesson and won't be posting anymore fake news that 'puzzles you'. Generally fake news does that, because you know it's fake.

Tell you what, you carry on carefully monitoring my posts and keep me right if you feel I'm not "learned my lesson" adequately.
Maybe I should likewise start monitoring some of the other threads. I'm sure that nothing but completely veriafiable events from legitimate news sources are posted.

I should probably also check that everyone who was losing their shit when a stray Hamas rocket landed on the hospital car park, likewise apologised and had their posts withdrawn. They did, right?

Edited

45 days later and still refusing to remove the tweet

So good luck on here with some of this lot

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 20:31

Can't be! That would be hypocritical surely?

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 22:53

For those on X, Ed Leon Klinger is posting about the various atrocities as well as anti-Semitic attacks elsewhere, this is his account:

https://x.com/edleonklinger?s=20

Obviously extremely distressing descriptions in some of his posts.

https://x.com/edleonklinger?s=20

Trulywonderful · 03/12/2023 23:17

SomeCatFromJapan · 03/12/2023 22:53

For those on X, Ed Leon Klinger is posting about the various atrocities as well as anti-Semitic attacks elsewhere, this is his account:

https://x.com/edleonklinger?s=20

Obviously extremely distressing descriptions in some of his posts.

I don't do twitter anymore but can put user name in Google and get the last few tweets posted

G-d that is a lot to take in isn't it. Good on him for using his platform to post these things. The little girls released and getting returned to their mother is also very emotional. They shouldn't have been taken and held in the first place. Let alone the things they must have experienced and seen.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/12/2023 08:47

This thread is important so I am giving it a bump.

Lamelie · 05/12/2023 22:07

Leading news on BBC and Guardian now about the sexual violence on the 7th.
I mean it’s great it’s being acknowledged now but seriously?! They’re showing evidence like a video I saw on the day and we’ve been discussing since.
And on Twitter quite the ratioing of someone I’d never heard of but has obviously disappointed everyone saying she’d seen no evidence.