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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
XRAYTHIS · 23/11/2023 09:26

This.

Minimising and excusing what Hamas did is all over mumsnet.

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 09:31

.

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
ChalkWitch · 23/11/2023 11:38

Agreed OP.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 23/11/2023 11:46

Thank you op.

A friend of mine posted a pro Palestine meme on her Facebook wall. Nothing violent, just calling for more compassion for innocent civilians.
Unfortunately it brought her anti semitic friends out of the woodwork, one of them denying the October 7th massacre even happened.

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 11:51

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 23/11/2023 11:46

Thank you op.

A friend of mine posted a pro Palestine meme on her Facebook wall. Nothing violent, just calling for more compassion for innocent civilians.
Unfortunately it brought her anti semitic friends out of the woodwork, one of them denying the October 7th massacre even happened.

Yes that is the problem

You have people that genuinely have compassion for people in Gaza, however you a lot of people are just piggy backing on the whole thing. It is simply anti Israel and Jew hate barely or not at all hidden with some people

Sheeponacid · 23/11/2023 11:55

My heart is breaking for all the innocent souls caught up in both sides of this. I think that's how most of the people I know feel. I'm absolutely not denying the minimising/denial is taking place - I've no doubt it is, and it's abhorrent. But I do believe that for most people it's not a case of pick a side, there's compassion for and anger on behalf of ALL the victims.

Switchasaurous · 23/11/2023 13:09

Is it any different from those seeking to minimise the slaughter of Palestinian children?

Or deny the number killed (despite the numbers being proved accurate in previous conflicts).

Or still claiming that Al-Shifa was the 'beating heart' of hamas/their control centre, despite it being less will armed than many American homes (and metal weapons/bullets could not be in proximity to an MRI...).

I certainly don't feel that the 9/10 atrocity took place, and that Hamas were responsible for the majority of the deaths. I'm nice. I'm neither believing nor disbelieving specific details unless I have evidence enough to feel sure.

As to believing (or not) accounts of sexual abuse, unquestioning belief surely depends on context. Supporting a friend, supporting someone on here, being in a counselling role etc, absolutely. Your role is merely to provide support.

But where someone's future or their livelihood is at stake, then of course, a questioning approach needs to be taken. Where it forms apart of support for questionable military action, especially in a situation where propaganda is right on both sides, all claims should be looked at with a questioning eye.

I read about a gaza doctor who was forced to amputate his son's leg, without anaesthetic. He later died. Do I think it's probably true -sadly yes given the state of the hospitals. Am I going to say it definitely happened - nope. I don't have enough firm evidence either way. That's the same way I feel about specific details on both sides.

basculin · 23/11/2023 13:13

Sheeponacid · 23/11/2023 11:55

My heart is breaking for all the innocent souls caught up in both sides of this. I think that's how most of the people I know feel. I'm absolutely not denying the minimising/denial is taking place - I've no doubt it is, and it's abhorrent. But I do believe that for most people it's not a case of pick a side, there's compassion for and anger on behalf of ALL the victims.

I certainly don't feel that the 9/10 atrocity took place, and that Hamas were responsible for the majority of the deaths. I'm nice.

Fucking hell.

Edit: Sorry quoted the wrong post. That was from @Switchasaurous post above.

ChalkWitch · 23/11/2023 13:15

Yeah, Hamas live streamed it? Is that not evidence? They documented their own barbarity, scoring a spectacular own goal but you don’t believe it?

ChalkWitch · 23/11/2023 13:22

@Switchasaurous there’s got to be some typo in that 4th paragraph right? Surely?

Switchasaurous · 23/11/2023 13:34

It's a total typo!! An excruciating one at that!

😳

Of course it happened. It was a horrific terrorist atrocity planned and carried out by Hamas.

I just like evidence before I absolutely believe specific details on any side of a dispute - big or little.

On a side note, I find the search for evidence even trickier these days as AI etc makes photos, videos and audio even easier to fake. I try to rely on corroboration these days rather than taking anything at face value any more.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 13:47

and metal weapons/bullets could not be in proximity to an MRI..

They can if it’s not switched on. Electromagnets.

Switchasaurous · 23/11/2023 13:54

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 13:47

and metal weapons/bullets could not be in proximity to an MRI..

They can if it’s not switched on. Electromagnets.

You can't just switch them on and off like that. It's a lengthy and very expensive process. I don't know the details but apparently it costs about £30k and puts it out of action for at least a week.

In short, if that was a functional mri scanner, weapons could not be in proximity to it.

SeulementUneFois · 23/11/2023 13:55

Thank you OP.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 13:58

Switch this is the hospital that has famously just had babies transferred to another hospital because they couldn’t run the incubators, and you’re suggesting they have a fully functioning MRI machine?

Switchasaurous · 23/11/2023 14:05

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 13:58

Switch this is the hospital that has famously just had babies transferred to another hospital because they couldn’t run the incubators, and you’re suggesting they have a fully functioning MRI machine?

Nope. I'm suggesting they HAD a fully functioning MRI back before it was attacked, bombed, starved of electricity etc.

If the MRI was no longer functioning, the magnet had been quenched etc, then sure, you could store a small bag of guns there, but that post-war placement wouldn't be evidence of it being Hamas base. It must have been a relatively recent placement by either hamas, someone else in the hospital (storing weapons when I've dear is attack isn't unusual behaviour) or the IDF. Who knows.

It's clear that they hadn't been there months ago though as that's not compatible with mri.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 14:10

Ah right, so we agree it is entirely possible that those guns were found in that room as stated.

Switchasaurous · 23/11/2023 14:57

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 14:10

Ah right, so we agree it is entirely possible that those guns were found in that room as stated.

Not for long term storage no, as there's an MRI there. But they could have been put there a week before, day before, or 10 minutes before by the IDF. There's no evidence either way, except it wasn't used for long term gun storage, and is zero evidence of a preexisting base in the hospital.

Noicant · 23/11/2023 15:11

You are right OP, Hamas is fucking foul they committed abhorrent crimes. You can feel sorry for Palestinians whilst also acknowledging that Hamas is a shit stain on humanity. If you can’t do that you probably have an issue with Jewish people.

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 15:45

I think Israel made a mistake on holding back a lot of information and only releasing it pushed to by way of explanation. If they had flooded the internet eg Hamas style then people would have had the same visceral reactions.

I am not saying it's right and I get why they did it but Hamas has fought a strong PR campaign. This is another sign that this was well planned and they understood what would happen afterwards. They have harnessed Israel's rage and need for retribution and used it against them. Helpfully pushed along by a big dose of anti semitism.

I wish people could see beyond.....

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:08

Switchasaurous · 23/11/2023 14:57

Not for long term storage no, as there's an MRI there. But they could have been put there a week before, day before, or 10 minutes before by the IDF. There's no evidence either way, except it wasn't used for long term gun storage, and is zero evidence of a preexisting base in the hospital.

The Amnesty International report from 2015 which says that Hamas was using Al Shifa hospital as a base is better evidence, that's true.

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 17:02

I believe the attacks happened. I believe it was Hamas and not Israeli imposters pretending to be Hamas. I believe innocent lives were lost that day in a brutal and horrific manner. I believe Hamas are entirely to be blamed for this.
i also believe there are tunnels in Palestine and Israel. Tunnels that Israel know all about. These tunnels run near the Al shifa hospital and many other places. However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp. I believe the Israeli government feels the eyes of the world on it and is trying to justify its indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. The government is feeling pressure from its own citizens too. There have been many Israelis and Jews protesting against their own government. Thousands of Israelis have left the country (20-30000 the last time I checked) and have gone back to their other countries of residence as so many are dual citizens. They don’t seem to have much faith in the current regime or simply don’t want to be a part of the genocide taking place currently.

I believe they have exaggerated many claims and have also lied in many instances. As many lies have already been exposed, it’s really difficult to know if they are still lying or if there’s any truth behind the accounts. Israeli propaganda has been exposed for the world to see, that’s why many people are now reluctant to believe them. Lies like the Arabic calendar incident and the fake videos of Palestinians which was later found to be a movie clip, or the tunnels shown earlier which were later identified as tunnels in some other country that are a tourist attraction. It’s like the boy who cried wolf too many times.
However, what makes it worse is the fact that this is a government and army that are constantly murdering the most vulnerable of Palestinian citizens. If a government thinks it’s ok to do that then it’s hard to take them seriously or believe in their agenda. When you couple that with their history of lies, it’s hard to believe anything they say.
Personally. I think they haven’t got the foggiest on how to deal with Hamas, so they have resorted to just killing every Arab and Muslim in the hope that they destroy Hamas.
The Israeli government are so petty, that if they had any real evidence at all to back their claims, they would’ve pushed it in our faces from day 1.

If you really want to know why so many are skeptical about the Israeli government, then look at these links/videos. You will realise anyone with even a speck of common sense or any critical thinking skills, will not believe the Israeli government’s version of events unless it’s been verified by unbiased external sources. They’ve just been caught lying too many times to be believed anymore.

https://x.com/kitklarenberg/status/1725552488516911330?s=46&t=eApyQwxkdiGUWJcyEmIdVA

https://x.com/cloudflyer_th/status/1725436716838686910?s=46&t=eApyQwxkdiGUWJcyEmIdVA

https://x.com/roninwoz/status/1725170737458110958?s=46&t=eApyQwxkdiGUWJcyEmIdVA

https://x.com/kitklarenberg/status/1725552488516911330?s=46&t=eApyQwxkdiGUWJcyEmIdVA

etmoiandme · 23/11/2023 17:12

I politely suggest you look into Kit Klarenberg a bit more before quoting him as a reliable, unbiased source.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:14

However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp.

Eh? But they are well known for it?

Here, read this report by Amnesty International from 2015 detailing exactly the sorts of people Hamas are.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/webfm/Documents/issues/embargoed_report_2015_strangling_necks.pdf?VersionId=P1UhUPtoDsugXg8dywgqM16v9v6LozhZ

It contains 24 references to Al-Shifa hospital.

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING
noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 17:15

Warning that the report contains some extremely distressing images of dead bodies that have been tortured.