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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

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notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:00

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notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:14

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 15:45

I think Israel made a mistake on holding back a lot of information and only releasing it pushed to by way of explanation. If they had flooded the internet eg Hamas style then people would have had the same visceral reactions.

I am not saying it's right and I get why they did it but Hamas has fought a strong PR campaign. This is another sign that this was well planned and they understood what would happen afterwards. They have harnessed Israel's rage and need for retribution and used it against them. Helpfully pushed along by a big dose of anti semitism.

I wish people could see beyond.....

I wish people could see beyond and just ‘believe’ everything regardless of proof and evidence…then they would agree with us that the only way is to slaughter and starve a million children

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:25

Not a single mainstream news source (even the openly pro Israel ones) CNN, BBC, Sky News has said that the evidence proudly shared by IDF supports their assertions on Al Shifa or indeed any hospital. The existence of tunnels underneath hospitals and all of Gaza was never questioned. It is whether those tunnels were being used as a command centre for Hamas NOW, at the time that Israel decided to suffocate 9 premature babies in favour of sieging a hospital and denying medicine, food, water and importantly fuel to 1000s of patients. Also now a new low has been achieved of actually shooting at medical staff.

the evidence is so painfully orchestrated many have clearly pretended to be fair in commenting on it but still the ‘belief’ is there with the blind faith ppl and you want us to have blind faith in Israel too despite all their lies. Ppl the world over know this is the WMD moment but a couple of guns (ridiculously staged) and a tunnel (where the entrance was escavated with bull dozers from under a building!?) that apparently is proof enough for you of Hamas being there NOW. Not 2015, NOW.

One of the most expensive armies in the world uses publicly available intelligence from 2015 to attack civilian hospitals.

basculin · 24/11/2023 08:34

@notsoready4school

And all this is related to the denial of 10/7 how exactly? Although you've already said you think Jewish people are lying about the rise in anti-Semitism for money so do you think the same about the attacks?

ChalkWitch · 24/11/2023 09:28

@notsoready4school judging by your posts you are definitely ready for school. You need to educate yourself and leave TikTok alone.

Humdingerydoo · 24/11/2023 09:36

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 08:25

Not a single mainstream news source (even the openly pro Israel ones) CNN, BBC, Sky News has said that the evidence proudly shared by IDF supports their assertions on Al Shifa or indeed any hospital. The existence of tunnels underneath hospitals and all of Gaza was never questioned. It is whether those tunnels were being used as a command centre for Hamas NOW, at the time that Israel decided to suffocate 9 premature babies in favour of sieging a hospital and denying medicine, food, water and importantly fuel to 1000s of patients. Also now a new low has been achieved of actually shooting at medical staff.

the evidence is so painfully orchestrated many have clearly pretended to be fair in commenting on it but still the ‘belief’ is there with the blind faith ppl and you want us to have blind faith in Israel too despite all their lies. Ppl the world over know this is the WMD moment but a couple of guns (ridiculously staged) and a tunnel (where the entrance was escavated with bull dozers from under a building!?) that apparently is proof enough for you of Hamas being there NOW. Not 2015, NOW.

One of the most expensive armies in the world uses publicly available intelligence from 2015 to attack civilian hospitals.

Edited

Oh dear. Maybe have a look at previous posts on here? You'll see plenty of denial of the tunnels existence. You'll also see plenty of people (possibly even yourself included? I'm not sure) saying that there is no Hamas in the hospitals because the medical professionals say so, yet now the same people saying "of course there's Hamas in the hospitals, but you have to understand why the medical professionals couldn't say that! They'd have been killed!" (which I don't dispute). Yet Israelis are the ones blindly trusting what's being said 🙃

firstpasttheposter · 24/11/2023 09:36

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It's a chicken and egg problem. Hamas go into Israeli houses and murder children (it's not the first time this has happened), so Israel bombs Palestine, so more people join Hamas.

However, Israel does not recruit Israeli children as soldiers. You can't shift all the blame onto Israel for Hamas methods.

Xenia · 24/11/2023 09:48

Yes, Hamas is appalling. I hope for the sake of Palestinians as much as the safety of Israelis that it can be stamped out for good. Also ome of the Hamas images are generated by AI so it tends to be best for people on both sides to wait and assess before assuming what they see is a real image or not .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12785455/young-people-Hamas-dirty-tricks-propaganda-war-AMI-H-ORKABY.html

garlicandsapphires · 24/11/2023 10:07

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 15:45

I think Israel made a mistake on holding back a lot of information and only releasing it pushed to by way of explanation. If they had flooded the internet eg Hamas style then people would have had the same visceral reactions.

I am not saying it's right and I get why they did it but Hamas has fought a strong PR campaign. This is another sign that this was well planned and they understood what would happen afterwards. They have harnessed Israel's rage and need for retribution and used it against them. Helpfully pushed along by a big dose of anti semitism.

I wish people could see beyond.....

I was reflecting that my Instagram feed is now full of the most horrifying images and videos coming from Gaza as I have deliberately followed some of the accounts of people on the ground, but I haven't seen anything recently from the other side - yet of course it is still happening.
I don't want to lose sight of the horrors inflicted by Hamas and the suffering of the Israelis.

garlicandsapphires · 24/11/2023 10:13

Xenia · 24/11/2023 09:48

Yes, Hamas is appalling. I hope for the sake of Palestinians as much as the safety of Israelis that it can be stamped out for good. Also ome of the Hamas images are generated by AI so it tends to be best for people on both sides to wait and assess before assuming what they see is a real image or not .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12785455/young-people-Hamas-dirty-tricks-propaganda-war-AMI-H-ORKABY.html

I have wondered about this, whether any of these images are AI generated, and if so, is there a way of telling?
AI specialists I assume can distinguish between real and fake? but how impartial are they??

XRAYTHIS · 24/11/2023 10:20

The images generate a mass response. I doubt many on X, Instagram and Tic Toc think about it being real or not. They are sites for quick viewing, quick comment and move on. Some of the comments are vile and I would hope that people would not talk like that in everyday real life.

Very useful for terrorist organisations for propaganda. They are able to manipulate feelings, reactions and their point of view

Sadly it increases overall hatred and promotion of anti semitism and racism in general. It appears easy to push a particular narrative. So much misinformation out there and repeated as factual.

Trulywonderful · 24/11/2023 10:23

XRAYTHIS · 24/11/2023 10:20

The images generate a mass response. I doubt many on X, Instagram and Tic Toc think about it being real or not. They are sites for quick viewing, quick comment and move on. Some of the comments are vile and I would hope that people would not talk like that in everyday real life.

Very useful for terrorist organisations for propaganda. They are able to manipulate feelings, reactions and their point of view

Sadly it increases overall hatred and promotion of anti semitism and racism in general. It appears easy to push a particular narrative. So much misinformation out there and repeated as factual.

Edited

This

Parker231 · 24/11/2023 11:17

garlicandsapphires · 24/11/2023 10:13

I have wondered about this, whether any of these images are AI generated, and if so, is there a way of telling?
AI specialists I assume can distinguish between real and fake? but how impartial are they??

I saw the fake pictures from the Israelis showing rockets kept by working MRI machines in the hospital. Surely the Israelis must realise that rockets and an MRI wouldn’t be in the same room - it would have exploded!

Humdingerydoo · 24/11/2023 11:25

Parker231 · 24/11/2023 11:17

I saw the fake pictures from the Israelis showing rockets kept by working MRI machines in the hospital. Surely the Israelis must realise that rockets and an MRI wouldn’t be in the same room - it would have exploded!

So you think Palestinians have been able to have MRIs the past 50 days? You don't think it's possible they've switched them all off? 🙈 They don't have fuel to desalinate water or bake bread, but they have enough to run an MRI machine? They are performing c-sections without pain meds but they're still using MRIs? Come on.

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 11:38

@Humdingerydoo exactly. Don't let logic get in the way of a good story though. No basics but we can do you a cracking MRI!

Parker231 · 24/11/2023 11:53

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 11:38

@Humdingerydoo exactly. Don't let logic get in the way of a good story though. No basics but we can do you a cracking MRI!

You can switch off/loose power to an MRI but the magnetic fields are still live- and dangerous. Experts have commented on this on various Twitter posts showing the pictures.

Goodornot · 24/11/2023 11:57

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Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 12:02

@Parker231 even al jeezera said ' as long as it was switched off'.

Efacsen · 24/11/2023 12:10

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 12:02

@Parker231 even al jeezera said ' as long as it was switched off'.

It was a complete 'own goal' though - it should have been explained by the soldier displaying the evidence that the MRI was not operational

Then all this controversy would have been avoided

They made themselves look incompetent by not giving this important information at the time

miniegg3 · 24/11/2023 12:11

Parker231 · 24/11/2023 11:17

I saw the fake pictures from the Israelis showing rockets kept by working MRI machines in the hospital. Surely the Israelis must realise that rockets and an MRI wouldn’t be in the same room - it would have exploded!

I saw videos of the same and they were certainly not AI.. do you really think using an mri for patients is at the top of the list of terrorists priorities?? It would obviously not be turned on 🙈

miniegg3 · 24/11/2023 12:12

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 11:38

@Humdingerydoo exactly. Don't let logic get in the way of a good story though. No basics but we can do you a cracking MRI!

🤣

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 12:18

@Efacsen or perhaps they assumed we weren't idiots. Does everything have to be explained?

Efacsen · 24/11/2023 12:26

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 12:18

@Efacsen or perhaps they assumed we weren't idiots. Does everything have to be explained?

Clearly it did need to be explained!

Otherwise how do you explain the huge and completely unneccessary blow-back

The night the film was shown twitter was full of folks throwing metal objects into MRI scanners and mocking the IDF

Why do that to yourself? It's self-sabotaging in a really delicate situation for them

Trulywonderful · 24/11/2023 12:30

Stomacharmeleon · 24/11/2023 12:18

@Efacsen or perhaps they assumed we weren't idiots. Does everything have to be explained?

Apparently it does

Even then some people still fail often to understand or refuse too. Hence the reason you will notice me use photos or graphs. I find at school even some of the iffy year 9 students get the conversation if you show them in images. Plus some students and some posters need to 'see' things. It is clearly a SEN issue beconce I do that the back down or disappear.

Parkingt111 · 24/11/2023 13:02

@Efacsen I agree to that.
The raid and attack on Al shifa hospital was a hugely contentious issue where there was a large focus on the developments for days before the raid even happened
There was on going debates and warnings with different countries and international organisations all giving their stances on it including the US who said they don't want any live fighting in the hospital.

Whether one believes the IDF on this or not, the first resulting evidence put together by them did seem extremely incompetent, and due to this it certainly casted alot of doubts for some on the credibility of any future proofs presented.

The calender for example. A quick Google image search or even just asking an arabic speaker would have showed you that those were the days of the week in Arabic and not names of guards. I personally still can't take the calender man seriously

The whole thing became a joke online and even if we disregard the social media aspect despite it being quite powerful, major news outlets also picked up on these points

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