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Conflict in the Middle East

10/7 Denial - TRIGGER WARNING

338 replies

StDuBois · 22/11/2023 10:18

TRIGGER WARNING - (SA, infanticide, torture)

If you are not Jewish or Israeli, I implore you to read this, especially if you have been denying the scale of the 10/7 massacre.

The 10/7 massacre was live-streamed by the perpetrators on their own social media platforms.

Initially, antisemites celebrated. After more and more heinous, indefensible details started to come out, antisemites started denying it happened at all.

A PHENOMENON NOT UNLIKE HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic and anti-Romani conspiracy that denies or distorts the established facts about the Nazi genocide of Jews and Roma.

In 1996, Gregory Stanton, the founder of Genocide Watch, wrote a briefing paper for the US Department of State titled “The 8 Stages of Genocide.” In 2012, the paper was amended to add two more stages. According to Genocide Watch, the tenth and final stage of genocide is denial.

According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, “Distortion of the Holocaust is rhetoric, written work, or other media that excuse, minimize, or misrepresent the known historical record.” A danger of Holocaust distortion is that from the outside, it might appear more credible than outright Holocaust denial. According to the IHRA Honorary Chairman Yehuda Bauer, “A half truth is worse than a full lie.”

Like Holocaust denial, 10/7 denial is not necessarily an outright denial that the massacre happened, but it can be a distortion of facts. For example, just like many Holocaust deniers claim that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but that it was only a plot for the Zionists to “get” Israel, 10/7 deniers can claim that 10/7 happened as a ploy for Israel to re-occupy the Gaza Strip.

Unlike the Nazis, who went through great lengths to cover up their crimes at the tail end of the war, the perpetrators of 10/7 gleefully live-streamed their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

NO, THE IDF DID NOT KILL ISRAELIS

Like Holocaust deniers of days past, 10/7 deniers are now blaming Israelis for their own massacre.

After the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an article in which one anonymous police officer said that the police is looking into the possibility that some of the victims of the Nova music festival massacre were killed by fire from an IDF military chopper, antisemites took the statement out of context, distorted it, and disseminated it all the media and the internet.

In response to the Haaretz article, the Israeli police put out a statement that the investigation was only in regard to police activities on October 7, not military activities, and that as such, they do not have “any indication about the harm to civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The police later asked the press to “take responsibility for their publications and only base stories on official sources.”

Regardless, the conspiracy has taken a life of its own, so much so that Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of carrying out the massacre. Abbas later retracted his statement.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS RAPED WOMEN AND GIRLS

First, a question for the feminists: do you generally question survivors’ stories of sexual assault, or do you only do so when they are Israeli?

After the pro-Hamas crowd realized you cannot defend gang rape as a legitimate form of “decolonization” or “resistance,” they decided to deny that any such assaults took place.

While eyewitness testimony should be enough, apparently it’s not. But despite the fact that most of the bodies were charred or mutilated beyond recognition, the physical evidence still exists: “There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis – women, grandmothers, children,” according to a morgue worker.

“Many of the victims were in conditions too severe to identify, naked, and with clear signs of sexual assault,” according to the police.
In a video which was screened for journalists but has not been made available to the general public, “…a woman is unclothed from the waist down, with her underpants hanging off one thigh. She is lying face down and is dead. In another, a mutilated dead woman has her dress hitched up to her waist, with no underpants.”

The eyewitness testimony is just as harrowing. An eyewitness described an instance of gang rape: “He is here raping her…and then they pass her on to another person…she stood on her feet, she was bleeding from her back…[one of the terrorists] slices her breast and throws it on the road, and they’re playing with it. Afterwards, someone really penetrates her and shoots her in the head before he finishes. It’s not like he ejaculates and picks up his pants…He shoots her in the head while he’s still inside of her.”

“Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends' bodies, dead bodies,” said a survivor of the Nova music festival massacre.

(TW)

YES, HAMAS BEHEADED BABIES

After President Biden clarified that he had not personally seen images of beheaded babies, conspiracy theorists went into a frenzy. So let’s make this clear once and for all: yes, Hamas beheaded Israeli babies.

This has now been independently verified by a group of international forensic pathologists, though the corpses were so badly burnt that it’s impossible to discern whether the babies were decapitated before or after being set on fire.

Israel showed US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken photographic evidence of those decapitations, which he has verified, and the photos, which are extremely graphic, were published to the Israeli Prime Minister’s office Twitter.

(TW)

DID HAMAS BURN A BABY IN AN OVEN?

According to an Israeli first responder and witness, Asher Moskowitz, yes: “The body hardened and, unfortunately, appeared to have also swollen…And really, the heating element of the oven was on the body itself.”

This has yet to be verified by a third party.

NO, HAMAS IS NOT HUMANE

Do we even have to say this?
After disturbing security camera footage emerged of Hamas terrorists dragging two Nepalese hostages through Al Shifa Hospital, which has long been known to be their main headquarters, Hamas apologists started praising Hamas for supposedly giving the hostages medical attention.

So let’s make two things clear: (1) you don’t get to blow someone’s leg off and then call yourself “humane” because you then got them medical attention, and (2) there are at least five other hospitals between the site where the hostages were abducted and Al Shifa Hospital. The terrorists took them to Al Shifa not because they wanted to give them medical attention, but because Al Shifa is a Hamas base.

Similarly, people called Hamas humane after released hostage Yokheved Lifshitz, 85, said that the guards assigned to her didn’t hurt her and that she was fed, received medication, and was kept in clean condition. Of course, she also said she was beaten when she was abducted, though Hamas apologists leave out that part. Additionally, her husband is still captive, so of course she wouldn’t want to say anything to the media that would jeopardize his safety. Finally, photos from before and after the kidnapping show that Lifshitz lost a drastic amount of weight while in captivity.

To reiterate: you don’t get to violently abduct civilians and then call yourself humane.

Hamas is not denying the massacre. So why are you?

(credit - Debbie Lechtman at Roots Metals)

OP posts:
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26
3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:28

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 18:58

At a guess because they didn't want Amnesty reporting on the war crimes that they detail Israel committing in the segment that you posted?

However, I haven't the faintest idea why you think that means that Amnesty would have published a fictional report saying that Hamas are bad.

Do you think the report is fictional and that the detainees, families, witnesses etc that they interviewed and the evidence of the torture and murders committed by Hamas are fake? That Hamas don't actually torture and murder people?

Or is it just that you disbelieve the bit where they tortured and murdered people at Al Shifa?

Where have I stated it’s fictional?
What I’ve pointed out to you is that
1: amnesty international were prohibited from entering Gaza and doing an independent and free review based upon their chosen pieces of evidence and witnesses. They had no choice but to speak to agents, witnesses and create a limited report based upon limited second hand details. Whereas, if Israel had nothing to hide, they should’ve let amnesty international to go in and have free access to research and observe as they wanted.can you not see that this type of behaviour makes them look guilty straight away?
2: if it was found that Hamas were operating from shifa hospital back in 2015, then surely that would’ve been dealt with by the idf back then. I refuse to believe that the idf knew what Hamas were doing in the hospital in 2014-2015, but had no power to stop them as they don’t have any control over gaza. That’s just laughable to say that. This is Israel, the same country that refuses to listen to the UN or countries around the world to minimise deaths of innocent civilians. It prevents international agencies from entry. Bombs when are where it pleases. Evacuates villages whenever it wants etc. it has full control over what happens in Gaza and the whole world knows and see that.
3: once again, where is the unbiased and independent evidence that Hamas had a major operational unit in Al shifa? In oct/nov 2023?

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:33

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 19:15

Erm, let me think, why has the Israeli government not dealt with the Hamas base underneath a hospital before? I mean they could have bombed it any time between 2015 and now? I wonder why the didn't?

Because it's underneath a hospital! That's why!! Believe it or not, the Israelis don't actually want to bomb a hospital. That's why Hamas put it there in the first place! Do you really not get this!!!!

So where is the unbiased and independent evidence to show these tunnels in operation? They allowed fox and bbc news in and nothing substantial was found that proves this claim. Yes, a handful of guns were found in a room, but that is according to the idf. How do we knowing wasn’t planted there? Why won’t they let another external agency investigate with them so they can show the world that they were justified in their terrible actions against the doctors, injured and civilians of the shifa hospital.

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 19:34

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petuniasandpetals · 23/11/2023 19:54

I'm thinking that Hamas knew the Israelis knew they were based at Al Shifa and have therefore moved somewhere else.
This was a well planned attack that went better than they even expected.
Sinwar has a very strategic mind and spent years in Israeli prison learning about his enemies.
Of course Gazans are not all terrorists but Hamas is their government and so they will either be afraid of them or look at them as their protectors.

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 20:10

@3and2ready because last time I checked we are in the middle of a war. And it's very much a two way thing not just Israel strolling in...
it always make me chuckle on here the righteous indignation that posters have that evidence is not posted straight away to the internet for their perusal. Not thinking that the reason the west, oh and all the Arab countries, are not racing to get involved are that they know it's there as do the intelligence services. Or that showing all their cards now may jeopardise getting any hostages released. Or the future of the conflicts

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:14

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:33

So where is the unbiased and independent evidence to show these tunnels in operation? They allowed fox and bbc news in and nothing substantial was found that proves this claim. Yes, a handful of guns were found in a room, but that is according to the idf. How do we knowing wasn’t planted there? Why won’t they let another external agency investigate with them so they can show the world that they were justified in their terrible actions against the doctors, injured and civilians of the shifa hospital.

They're hardly going to let the press into the tunnels they're currently using are they? I've seen many videos of the tunnels and you can see exactly what they're being used for! I've also seen videos of hamas on 7/10 bringing hostages into the hospital and its very clear to see THEY are in charge and the doctors have no control

firstpasttheposter · 23/11/2023 20:21

3and2ready · 23/11/2023 19:33

So where is the unbiased and independent evidence to show these tunnels in operation? They allowed fox and bbc news in and nothing substantial was found that proves this claim. Yes, a handful of guns were found in a room, but that is according to the idf. How do we knowing wasn’t planted there? Why won’t they let another external agency investigate with them so they can show the world that they were justified in their terrible actions against the doctors, injured and civilians of the shifa hospital.

That's a different question. I don't know all the answers to that one. But if you are so confused that you don't get the rational behind putting tunnels and bases under hospitals and schools in the first place, I don't think you are a good person to investigate!

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 20:24

@miniegg3 enters poster stage left.... oh they aren't terrorists they could be anyone, they might be providing medical assistance, they aren't dressed like terrorists, having a machete might be for another reason....

These are all terrible excuses I have heard on here...

Lamelie · 23/11/2023 20:26

Is anyone going to the march? I’m at the moment going alone and happy to do so but I feel a bit sad that amongst my lovely normally lefty kind friends and family it seems such a strong statement.

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 20:36

Where have I stated it’s fictional?

You said:

However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp.

I posted a report from Amnesty International from 2015 stating that, among other things, Hamas tortured people in the outpatients clinic of Al-Shifa hospital.

Your response was:

there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

But you're now saying that you don't think it's fictional?

So now you're claiming that you believe the Amnesty 2015 report that Hamas were, among other things, torturing people in the outpatients clinic of Al Shifa hospital, therefore it is entirely possible that Hamas are the sorts of people to hide in hospitals?

You seem to have pivoted from denying that Hamas hide in hospitals to Hamas don't have a massive command centre in a hospital in 2023. Can we now assume that you have abandoned your earlier claim?

(by the way, being presented with a report about tortures and murders being committed by Hamas and your response being 'wow that report makes Israel look bad' suggests that you are not entirely neutral in your assessment of the situation).

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:39

www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-hamas-in-interview-terrorists-brought-wrath-of-god-with-october-7-attack/amp/

Also worth reading about what mosab hassan yousef has to say about the regime, and he is the son of a hamas founder

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 20:40

@Lamelie I am hoping to but am rather anxious about the whole thing.

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:46

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 20:36

Where have I stated it’s fictional?

You said:

However, I also believe that Hamas aren’t hiding in the hospital or school or refugee camp.

I posted a report from Amnesty International from 2015 stating that, among other things, Hamas tortured people in the outpatients clinic of Al-Shifa hospital.

Your response was:

there was no real evidence even back then in 2015 that amnesty or any unbiased independent source saw for themselves. Wow.

But you're now saying that you don't think it's fictional?

So now you're claiming that you believe the Amnesty 2015 report that Hamas were, among other things, torturing people in the outpatients clinic of Al Shifa hospital, therefore it is entirely possible that Hamas are the sorts of people to hide in hospitals?

You seem to have pivoted from denying that Hamas hide in hospitals to Hamas don't have a massive command centre in a hospital in 2023. Can we now assume that you have abandoned your earlier claim?

(by the way, being presented with a report about tortures and murders being committed by Hamas and your response being 'wow that report makes Israel look bad' suggests that you are not entirely neutral in your assessment of the situation).

This

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:50

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:39

www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-hamas-in-interview-terrorists-brought-wrath-of-god-with-october-7-attack/amp/

Also worth reading about what mosab hassan yousef has to say about the regime, and he is the son of a hamas founder

He has done some amazing honest interviews and brilliant speeches

It is very dangerous to speak out as he has and put a target on his back, very brave man

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:52

Lamelie · 23/11/2023 20:26

Is anyone going to the march? I’m at the moment going alone and happy to do so but I feel a bit sad that amongst my lovely normally lefty kind friends and family it seems such a strong statement.

I will be there you can lookout for a sign that says something 'truly' 😁

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 20:59

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 20:50

He has done some amazing honest interviews and brilliant speeches

It is very dangerous to speak out as he has and put a target on his back, very brave man

Absolutely, I think a lot of westerners need to hear this! Might get the dangerous ideas out of their heads

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 22:05

Lots of support for the plight of Palestinians in Gaza until it's Hamas doing the killing...one wonders why.

mollyfolk · 23/11/2023 23:32

I don’t deny the attacks. They sound absolutely horrific. Nothing justifies an attack on ordinary citizens like this - especially children - it’s an attack on innocence itself. I haven’t seen any legitimate news source say anything to deny the attacks. And I also condemn the Israeli authorities for starving and bombing and killing thousands of ordinary Palestinian’s - many of which are children. Nothing justifies their actions and they are losing the international support that they once had through their show of complete inhumanity.

miniegg3 · 23/11/2023 23:42

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noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 23:54

Oh and if we are all agreed that Amnesty International is a good source maybe...

...maybe you think you could just about segue the conversation into condemning Israel?

Honestly. Can't help yourselves.

Trulywonderful · 24/11/2023 00:16

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 23:54

Oh and if we are all agreed that Amnesty International is a good source maybe...

...maybe you think you could just about segue the conversation into condemning Israel?

Honestly. Can't help yourselves.

Probably could but won't

Oh the predictability of it

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 00:31

noblegiraffe · 23/11/2023 16:08

The Amnesty International report from 2015 which says that Hamas was using Al Shifa hospital as a base is better evidence, that's true.

Yes it is perhaps evidence that it was used about 8 years ago. It would be some kind of stupid to start looking 8 years later when apparently the whole world knew that’s where there top secret headquarters which only consisted of a tunnel was

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 00:34

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they haven’t, they have been robbed of their whole childhood by Israel and their heartless allies who turned a blind eye to Gaza as Israel continued its senseless relentless violence on these children to forever scar them and rob them of any chance of normality

firstpasttheposter · 24/11/2023 06:34

notsoready4school · 24/11/2023 00:34

they haven’t, they have been robbed of their whole childhood by Israel and their heartless allies who turned a blind eye to Gaza as Israel continued its senseless relentless violence on these children to forever scar them and rob them of any chance of normality

Actually, it's Hamas that uses children as soldiers, but nice but of blame shifting there!

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