Israeli Jewish Holocaust and Genocide Scholar Explains How What's Happening in Gaza Amounts to Genocide

[Ohlalalalala]

Raz Segal is an associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies and endowed professor in the study of modern genocide at Stockton University in New Jersey.

[...] an expert declaration by three leading Holocaust and genocide studies scholars: Victoria Sanford, Barry Trachtenberg and John Cox. Sanford has written extensively on genocide and state violence in Latin America, especially in the case of Guatemala. Trachtenberg and Cox have published widely on the Holocaust.

They stress in their report that the “levels of destruction and killings in just over one month, together with the annihilatory language expressed by Israeli state leaders and senior army officers, point not to targeting of individual Hamas militants or Hamas military targets, but to the unleashing of deadly violence against Palestinians in Gaza ‘as such,’ in the language of the UN Genocide Convention.”

The assessment of the three senior Holocaust and genocide studies scholars is accurate. Gaza now resembles Ukrainian cities after Russian bombings and invasions, but with levels of destruction and killings that have surpassed in less than a month what we have seen in Ukraine in nearly two years: Official U.N. figures from early September note that Russian attacks killed slightly fewer than 10,000 civilians since February 2022, and injured just above 17,500. Israel has so far killed more than 11,000 Palestinians, wounding nearly 30,000. It is important that Biden described Russia’s attack on Ukraine as “genocide” on April 12, 2022, commenting that “we’ll let the lawyers decide, internationally, whether or not it qualifies, but it sure seems that way to me.” In the same way, Gallant’s “total siege” policy, together with the forced displacement of more than 1.5 million of the 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza, has created what sure seems like genocide.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-11-19/israel-hostages-gaza-bombing-civilians-genocide-holocaust-studies

@hamstersarse not believing the IDF is not the same as "believing Hamas". Innacurate analogy.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-ml-israel-army-032309-2009mar23-story.html

You are questioning whether Hamas position themselves in hospitals - saying the IDF are lying about it. You are therefore believing Hamas.

Good point. Glad to see Israel saying they will hunt these 'men' down. They are prepared to let children suffer for the leaders' dirty work but never a word is uttered. Hamas are good at destruction tactics and aren't they working well.

Do you not realise the IDF have dealt with this before? There have been PLENTY of insurgencies before. It's one of the only military forces in the world that repeatedly faces threat from multiple adversaries (not surprising, given it's geography). This is the Israeli military's bread and butter. If you just look at the last 20 years Hezbollah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Syria have all tried to attack Israel. The approach in the last 6 weeks is not 'all they can do' and I am getting really fed up of the repetition of 'they have no choice'. They do and did.

There is a former IDF officer on this reddit thread https://qr.ae/pK4c5l that has some very insightful and actual real world experience of IDF military:

'When it comes to countering guerilla warfare and engaging in asymmetric combat (meaning, a conventionally weaker foe that resorts to non-military, "dirty" strategies), Israeli combat soldiers have comparably superb training...This is why you frequently see Israeli counter-terrorism officers providing guidance, training and cooperation to other nations who occasionally face similar threats.

Take, for example, some of the conflicts waged against Hamas. Considering the absolutely tiny sliver of territory in which the IDF fought and how dense with civilian population it was, the capability to generate accurate, localized fire was impressive.

This isn't to say that there aren't cracks, and not all types of soldiers are equally trained. There have been instances where insufficient training to a specific task or a mismatch between the unit type and the mission it was assigned to resulted in casualties. The Second Lebanon War in 2006 had some notable cases. Some poor executions resulted in excessive civilian losses as well.'

This was posted 7 years ago (the 2006 conflict is believed to have killed between 1,191 and 1,300 Lebanese people, and 165 Israelis.) Are you telling me the IDF have no choice in killing 13,000 people in just under 6 weeks?

Thank you so much for posting this.
I wish some posters would follow his motto " Don't quarrel with facts."
He has debunked every single argument used to justify what is happening in Gaza by the Israeli government and others, including some posters here.
He stated that he wasn't pro Palestinians or pro Israeli but pro truth and pro justice. I feel that we should all aim for this.
He is also Jewish whose parents were the only survivors of their entire family to survive the Holocaust. His academic credentials are impressive.
In short, he is compelling.

🙄😴

I honestly wonder if all those who are actively trying to derail my thread ( yet again) and inundate it with genocide apologism and whataboutery truly believe what they're posting.

I am linking to reputable individuals who are experts in the field. Whose words are not empty rhetoric. Who are not saying these things for fame or money.

It's a goat, even if it flies!

You basically want a very black and white / Good guys and bad guys scenario

You aren't going to get that in this situation, and the 'whataboutery' is a reflection of this. Hamas are part of this problem, a huge part. It is not just 'Big Bad Israel', much as you would like it to be.

Rubbish. Wanting VERIFIABLE evidence for IDF claims is not the same as "believing Hamas."

have I misunderstood you? I asked a yes/no question. Have Israel / IDF In your eyes with the proof they have submitted to the media met the burden of proof re Hamas was operating in Al Shifa hospital and hence besieging the hospital was necessary?

i don’t understand why you are getting upset about Hamas leaders. I’m not believing them or believing them. I believe that hospitals should be no go zones on war unless they are proved to be otherwise. Do you or do you not believe they have proved it?

Mine as well as the world’s issue is with the protection of patients and civilians and the premie babies. Nothing to do with what Hamas said it didn’t say. What is the evidence and does it support the treatment of this hospital as a military object in pro Israeli eyes. Your response sounds generic as in you believe IDF blindly because they believe it. Irrespective of proof but because they have said it and Hamas are nasty so they must be correct.

Hamas is funded outside of Gaza, that is part of the issue. This wasn’t humanitarian funds that were supposed to help the people of Gaza that they took from corruption. This is military funding.

Corruption happens in Israel as well you know.

@hamstersarse many here will agree that Hamas is a part of the problem
The issue seems to be more on the way that the Israeli government have conducted this war whilst ignoring largely the issues that contributed to this violent attack.
Whilst this continues to be ignored and the violence against palestinians in the west bank is enabled and perpetrated by the Israeli government and the settlers, Israel will never be able to achieve the goals of this war. Which ultimately is security.
You are right it's not black and white. But scratch beneath the surface and you will see that this war was more about revenge and Netanyahus quest to retain his power than anything else
Which is why we are witnessing the casualties we are
Which is why even Israels closest and most powerful allies continue to voice concern over the rising death toll and the need to protect civilians.

He is only compelling to people on the side of truth and justice. To people who want to believe what they want to believe facts and proof play no part.

I think we fool ourselves trying to have dialogues with those types here. There is no way to make someone see the truth if they keep their eyes and ears closed

@hamstersarse if the current Israeli government were different and not mostly a bunch of extremists and war criminals I can very safely say that we most likely would not be witnessing what we are now
But how does one reason with a lunatic like Netanyahu? America seems to be having trouble to get him to listen. Netanyahu quite proudly and arrogantly said the other day that there has been increasing pressure on him even from the US but he's not listening

Given all the evidence we have all seen from both sides, my judgement is that believe that they are hiding out in civilian areas and hospitals.

There are a million different pieces of evidence from both sides that could be posted, too many to post on a thread - and anyway we have all seen them. You have to make a judgement for yourself, and my opinion is that Hamas deliberately hide in civilian areas including hospitals. I may be wrong, or course.

I also simultaneously believe that Israel need to adjust their 'tactics' now. The civilian deaths are too much.

@hamstersarse the difference between your view and many others is does Hamas being inside a school or refugee camp justify the bombing of that safe space when it's known that the majority of the casualties will be innocent and a large percentage children?
Does the means justify the end? If the end goal is security then will the means in this instance achieve that?
Was a part of this bait to demonise Israel to the world as heartless psychotic child murderers and they have blindly walked right into it?
They don't seem to have many happy friends at the moment and as each day goes by we see a new condemnation and a frustration at the israeli government that is starting to echo globally

"Belief" is not the same as verifiable evidence.

Belief alone can never be used to justify bombing civilian infrastructure.

Incontravertible evidence is required and even then steps must be taken to prevent or minimise as far as possible civilian casualties.

Just a heads up this thread has been majorly derailed, to the detriment of the OP and post. The original point was to discuss Jewish voices on the current crisis speaking out against what they believe to be a genocide. I suggest we try to get back on track again.

@eester thank you for the reminder agreed
I'm going to go back and read some of the content the OP posted

Back on topic I posted elsewhere regarding this film, Israelism made by following the journeys of some of the Jewish community in America some of whom have become disenchanted with Israel given their treatment of Arabs and other minorities. There is a viewing targeting Canadian and American viewers at I think 1pm UK time. Sorry for short notice!

I’m guessing you can only access if you have a VPN or are located in those regions. In any case sharing the link just in case.

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-yxki9n

It is important that Biden described Russia’s attack on Ukraine as “genocide” on April 12, 2022, commenting that “we’ll let the lawyers decide, internationally, whether or not it qualifies, but it sure seems that way to me.”

this above statement is what frustrates me the most. The double standards and hypocrisy is almost doing a whole dance infront of us waving and singing red flags yet so many refuse to accept it
After this war America and those governments who supported the genocide of Palestine no longer hold the moral high ground in right and wrong. As its clearly subjective depending on which 'team' is picked

Thanks. Unfortunately it's sold out.

I saw that the other day - was very eye opening and helps you appreciate how difficult it can be for some Jewish people to step outside the normal narrative. But also heartening that these people felt able to do so and heartening that more and more of them are coming around to this new level of awareness around Palestine.

Thank you.

And not just any Jewish voice; the author is an authority on the subjects of Holocaust and genocide.

I sadly agree with you. How can people totally disregard facts? Maybe they don't understand the difference between opinions and facts? Maybe they are enable to accept they are in the wrong. I am the first one to admit if I am wrong. Do I like doing it? No! Professor Flinkelstein put it better than me when he said that you had to silence your ego to do so. Some seem incapable to do that.