gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

They don't even consider them humans, so protecting Palestinian civilians is a laughable notion

Hamas has support in Gaza whch is a pity. Hopefully Israel can prevail which is the UK Government's view and that of many people in the West. I am sorry lots of people on MN do not agree but there it is. All we can do is keep talking to each other.

Israel is a democracy. Places like Iran which is probably funding Hamas is not. I know where my sympathies lie. Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet.

There are lots of historical examaples of lands being take away including my ancestors in Scotland during the enclosures but most of us just get on with the situation in which we are in rather than raging about it for decades if not longer. The Palestinians are not doing themselves any good and Israel will not be disappearing off the face of the planet.

Eh? Any evidence for that?

Israel could kill everyone in Gaza in an afternoon if they wanted to, you know that right?

The IDF is one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world. I don't believe for one second that Hamas has anything over them.

Yes, Israel has a very formidable army. One that once won a war against multiple aggressors in a mere six (6) days.
I mean either they have info on these tunnels (where the HQ is, what exactly is down there) or they don’t - if they do I think they’d have every chance of infiltrating them.

By 'forcefully expel' do you actually mean 'fight back in a number of wars that they didn't start, whose stated aim was their destruction as a Jewish people'?

Fixed that for you.

As far as I know, they weren't told they could return to their homes by the people they went to war against, no. Things have moved on since 1948, including the fact that Palestinians aren't under the impression that Israel will be wiped out in a few weeks time.

You won't get facts from these people. Just emotional statements designed to make people feel horrible for quite wanting the world's only Jewish country to continue existing and deal with the threat on their borders, because apparently they're just now hearing what a war is.

LOL

I’d dispute that it’s the Israelis country but where do you think the Palestinians should go - leave their own country?

Not at all. I think they could have had their own state umpteen times over in the past decades, in fact I know that for a fact. That is what I support, and an end to the absolute madness that is this running sore of a conflict ruining people's lives.

@ColonelDax "even if the figure of 7000 dead was correct, that is actually a very small figure" and by that logic 1400 is insignificant and 229 a drop in the ocean?
For all I'm being sarcastic I do believe the Israeli govt has no care for the 229 hostages . In their mind they are dead already and "it is on Hamas". I hope the hostages survive but I feel very worried for them. Maybe the Israeli are precision bombing and not targeting the hostages because their intelligence service knows where they are. I feel more the Hannibal Directive and no negotiation is in play.
But I hope the Israeli people question their Govt's failure to protect them and rescue them in the initial attack. I read the heart breaking texts of people from 7.15 am until 2pm asking for help and where was the army.

I knew about the tunnels being big but I didn't know they had to smuggle horses! That's raised my interest in what else the Israeli Govt does not allow in Gaza. No wonder people in Gaza have to rely on Hamas if the tunnels provide some kind of lifeline to a normal life.

@ColonelDax You say Israel is an expert in targeting therefore hitting minimal civilians but Major General Giora Eland (whose strategy Israel appears to be following) doesn't agree with you
"As a military expert, I believe that there is no careful way Israel can destroy and kill 20,000 Hamas fighters hiding in hundreds of kilometers of tunnels. IDF soldiers will need to enter the tunnels to find them. If Israel decides to carry out such a large invasion it will be done via cover of artillery and airstrikes which will lead to many civilians killed – not because we want it, but because there is no distinction as to the location where the combatants are and where the civilians are."

There is a strategy and thread running through all these posts from Israeli Govt defenders which follows the thinking of Giora Eland. Some have been linked to before. Here's another one Fathom – Opinion | ‘A new turning point in the history of the State of Israel. Most people don’t understand that’ (fathomjournal.org)

As a Palestinian civilian I would feel terrified at the idea of handing myself to the likes of Giora Elland or Ben-Gvir ( TBC I ma not Palestinian and feel terrified of them - lunatics )

Maybe stay there but stop killing Jews so they can all have some chance of a peaceful solution?

Just a thought.

Perhaps then Israel needs to allow Palestinians free movement, no restrictions on food, water etc - they shouldn’t be having to rely on aid agencies being allowed to bring in supplies.
Israel withdrawing from the Palestinian land would help?

General Eland makes a good point, there is only so much Israel can do in terms of distinction, especially in an area like Gaza where Hamas actively use civilians as shields.

They are doing their best. Blame Hamas for the end results.

Having spent time in Israel, the West Bank and Lebanon, I can tell you exactly who I'd be more comfortable handing myself over to.

Look to the behaviours we saw on Oct 7 if you need a clue as to who I would pick.

They already have their own state but Israelis are also living in it.

Yes that is interesting

Thanks

Can I suggest you give up your property (that we hear quite a lot about) to some displaced Gazans and you can just get on with it? No, I thought not.

They tried free movement a few times and got terror attacks and bombings as a result. Go figure why they don't like that idea.

What exactly do you class a 'Palestinian land' given that pretty much everyone involved in this (less a few crazy American settlers) were born in this area?

Israel isn’t a democracy - it’s an extreme right wing dictatorship. It’s struggling with political unrest and demonstrations against the current government. Netanyahu is hanging on by his fingertips.

They tried free movement a few times and got terror attacks and bombings as a result. Go figure why they don't like that idea.

What exactly do you class a 'Palestinian land' given that pretty much everyone involved in this (less a few crazy American settlers) were born in this area.

I guess it’s the land allocated in the proposed two state solution West Bank, land surrounding Gaza, East Jerusalem.

He can still be voted out though?

In the same way he was voted in

Good idea, now speak to the Palestinians and ask them to stop rejecting all of the proposed 2 state solutions and then electing people like Hamas whose stated aim is the destruction of the Jewish people. 🙄

Oh? Can you show me the peace agreement that recognises both Palestine and Israel as nation states? Or is this 'from the river to the sea" rhetoric?

More difficulty with the meaning of words I see.

Good idea, now speak to the Palestinians and ask them to stop rejecting all of the proposed 2 state solutions and then electing people like Hamas whose stated aim is the destruction of the Jewish people

Well it isn’t really the Palestinians is it? Hamas are, as a pp said, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and a proxy for Iran. They basically took Gaza over as a base. Don’t kid yourself the people living there had or have any real say in what goes on.