gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

@Desertrose2023 I do think they are justified yes. And I don't think they have any choice.
And in 17 years of Israel not being in Gaza Hamas hasn't managed to direct any of the billions in aid into sorting out fuel, water and sanitation and food. Nothing.
They have relied on Israel.
Which is fine if you then don't break a ceasefire and rape and pillage.
There are devastating consequences of this I agree for both sides and I hope there is a pause to allow aid in. But I think a joint ceasefire is unrealistic and would be catastrophic for Israel.
Blame is more nuanced. I think both sides inevitably will pay a huge price and have to answer to their own people.

I know you weren't addressing me @Desertrose2023, but in the spirit of being more conciliatory, I wanted to reply. Although I do support Israel's right to defend themselves, and I'm still heartbroken tbh at the details emerging about the 7th October, I really can't bear the idea they're cutting off water and food and don't really see how it achieves anything, given Hamas operatives probably have their own large stockpiles and no intention of sharing them. I absolutely support getting aid in as much as possible as well, but I can see the need to be cautious about what else might be brought through.

We keep seeing pictures of men saying their children are dead when a building was bombed. The men are often ok the women and children are not. Someone on a thread said most of the deceased are children. I realise that 50% of thd population are children but are the men sheltering in the tunnels whilst the children and women are above ground. It makes no sense. Surely with an extensive underground network you keep your children safe? It feels like the Hamas terrorists don't actually care.

@Ohdearanotheryear of course they don't care. That's why they put the hostages under a refugee camp..... they are either playing chicken with Israel or deliberately putting their people in harms way.

@Ohdearanotheryear and @Stomacharmeleon The man interviewed by the BBC was working at the hospital when his children at home were killed by the Israelis. His wife at home with the children was seriously injured. Doesn't fit with your cold hearted narrative. Go and watch it.

@Silence1 my 'cold hard narrative' is factual as that is what has happened. I don't know about the men there I just think it's a shame they would share their quite obvious huge network of tunnels with the civilian population .

@Stomacharmeleon So all the men in Palestine are Hamas?

Not only cold-hearted that's the norm - but a fucking inane 'take'

Yeah like they could fit any fraction of 2.3 million people in their magic elastic tunnels

No I was commenting on the answer before about what the men were doing... or not doing....
No I don't think all the people in Gaza are Hamas.
They could fit some though couldn't they? Any at all? Or if you are going to continually fire rockets into Israel then some bomb shelters.

Short version

The ground in Gaza is heavily compacted sand - okay for narrow tunnels -not suitable for bomb-shelters

And anyway Israel banned importation of construction materials to impede tunnelling so no bomb-shelters

@Efacsen they aren't burrowed tunnels though are they? We know from intelligence, reports of what has been brought through eg race horses and the fact Iran manages to get rockets through. And even to a certain extent media reports.

I suppose anything is possible if you have the will.... I mean tunnels and goods now. I imagine sand would hamper bomb shelters.

Yes they've had to be quite heavily re-inforced with concrete in places - diverting ?billions in aid

Article by Peter Beaumont in the Guardian 2-3 days ago on the tunnels explains it all

I watched that today, I was quite surprised by how wide some of the tunnels were with higher ceilings than I’d visualised.

Of course they are 'burrowed tunnels' - they don't dig a trench and put a roof on it

And they're big enough for what's required

That's not really what I meant but ok.
When I think burrowed I think ww2 and the great escape.
But they are bomb proof for a start so although crude in inception they are not basic.
Sorry if I confused you.

Oh dear @Silence1

A story of 1 man to prove hundreds of stories where men are ok and children are killed is offered up. I was referring to the numerous reports not the 1 story you offered. Naturally the bombs only kill children and women since some of the men are sheltering in the safety of the tunnels.

PS... the tunnels are long, very extensive, wide, reinforced... plenty of room. Doesn't look great with cowardly terrorists not allowing women and children to shelter.in them.

https://www.turkiyenewspaper.com/politics/16987#:~:text=%22One%20end%20of%20the%20tunnels,the%20tunnel%2C%22%20Bageri%20said.

The IDF Twitter site has a long post with lots of videos. Looks like time is running out for the Palestinians.

We, the IDF, are only operating against the Hamas terrorist organization for the safety of both Israeli and Gazan civilians.

Therefore, we have been urging the people of Gaza to evacuate south.

For the past three weeks, this message was communicated to the people of Gaza in various forms–spoken, printed, or televised.

you refer to nukes as a joke like it’s an unimaginable extreme and that in contrast Israel is being restrained. unfortunately the scale of bombardment, in term of collective measure, is not actually far off.

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/5908/Israel-hit-Gaza-Strip-with-the-equivalent-of-two-nuclear-bombs

@Stomacharmeleon I’m genuinely saddened you believe that.
in my view Israel is guilty of many crimes towards Palestinians, which span decades, but I would never argue that Hamas’s actions on Israeli civilians was justified.
by your logic Hamas could argue what they did on October 7th was justified on the basis of past Israeli massacres of Palestinians in Deir Yassin, Tantura and others.
it just perpetuates the never ending circle of violence.

When it comes to this issue @Noicant, very few want information which might challenge their current view of what's happening.

Thank you for sharing interesting information! :)

Have you been to Gaza? Genuine question.

I have and I've been to Israel and the West Bank too, talked to Arab Israelis, Jewish people, Palestinians, Christians and many others who have felt the effects of this horrendous conflict which goes back generations. Our brains would like to reduce it down to simple binaries like, 'well Israel has been bombing Gaza for years/genocide/open air prison' etc but living in that context will soon show the depth of pain and heartache on both sides.

It's not a straightforward 'binary' answer as much as we in the West would like it to be.

Thank you, I appreciate the reply.

I’m not here to defend what Hamas did on Oct 7 - killing innocents is indefensible. But I also don’t believe Israel’s actions in Gaza since then are in any way proportionate or justified. There have also been an underreported number of Palestinians killed and allegations of torture by Israeli army and settlers in the West Bank, where the blame simply cannot be laid on Hamas.

I watched a BBC interview with a pediatric intensive care doctor from Doctors Without Borders. Her account of the situation on the ground in Gaza is truly harrowing. Particularly that there has been a unique term coined in the medical community there to describe a certain subset of patients : “WCNSF”
it stands for Wounded Child No Surviving Family.

People here can argue it’s all the fault of Hamas for economic mismanagement, or for not sheltering 2.3 million people in underground tunnels (which is honestly laughable), but the reality is these are real people who are being starved and bombed. Saying that what’s happening to them is just an unfortunate byproduct of their leadership’s choices and that Israel cannot take accountability is just inhumane.

there needs to be a ceasefire.