gaza tunnel system

[Noicant]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/28/us/politics/gazas-tunnels-israel-ground-war.html

I thought this was an interesting article about Gaza’s systems of tunnels which would help explain what the IDF are trying to get at.

Agree. Amazing that someone in a prominent organisation was able to speak up about the reality of Israel and not just shelve morals and humanity into back pocket.

“The minute any regime/country/aggressor puts munitions, staff, leaders, operatives or any part of their War Machine covertly or visibly under/beside/above civilians, then that area becomes a legitimate military target.”

what you and many others don’t seem to want to accept is that wars have rules. These rules were written after the horrors of world war 2, when the world said never again. It’s not a free for all because Israel wants to achieve a specific military objective.

I just think it's useful when people show they want the only Jewish nation on the planet to stop existing, because I know not to interact further or take anything they say at face value.

Absolutely wars have rules so I would ask you why....
Hamas would put their top leader under a refugee camp and hostages which then make the camp a legitimate target.
Why have a mass of tunnels under the most vulnerable areas your citizens?

Don't seem very keen to play by the rules do they?

more deflection.

the laws of war apply to both parties. If Hamas does not comply that does not mean Israel is entitled to follow suit. If anything, Israel has a greater responsibility to abide given that it is a state actor with one of the most well funded armies on earth whose arsenal and military capabilities far exceed Hamas including in terms of defense and precision.

Agree again. No point engaging with someone who only wants to shout antisemitism and deflect any legitimate criticism of a governments actions.

Yes, this. The total detachment from reality of the Hamas spokesmen when they speak of their expectations and willingness to sacrifice so many innocent lives and their callous dismissal of so much suffering.

As we were discussing earlier, all that innovation, all that money, all that purpose and this is what Hamas chose to do to Gaza. But apparently, it’s not their fault. All those agencies who’ve stood by for years without loudly condemning Hamas’s activities and extortion are also complicit in the Gazan’s misery.

The article about potential Hezbollah engagement was very interesting, I think it would be financially catastrophic for Lebanon if they got dragged into this, there’s already deep unrest there over the corruption of the Lebanese political elite and the Port of Beirut explosion further destabilised the country. I’m not sure how the Lebanese citizens would react to being dragged into a costly and dangerous conflict when the country is in such a precarious financial position and so many people are already suffering.

I don’t understand why you reported my last post- you said to me, a Jewish person- Glad you think genocide is so entertaining. Please continue.
I do not find genocide entertaining. At all. You are all over the place telling people they’re “genocide apologists”. I’m not accusing you of anything you haven’t said yourself. But let’s move on!

Sorry to derail this a bit - so there's a network of tunnels in Gaza used by Hamas but there are no civilian bomb shelters, am I right? It doesn't seem to me like they exist, yet the place has been under attack for years.

Yes @Hellers , that's pretty much the gist , hamas have said it's not thier job to protect the citizens of Gaza , it's the job of Israel and the un .

@Desertrose2023 why is it deflection they are honest questions...

Also what you are doing is the same. Israel is more responsible because it has better military capability and precision?
Israel made it clear it was going after Hamas three weeks ago. And Hamas has responded by putting its people in harms way and targets by using the tunnels directly below a refugee camp. Hiding the things Israel prizes the most under a camp.

So I hold Hamas responsible for the genocide of its own people. They are happy to martyr them for the greater good.

@Hellers yes, there are no civilian bomb shelters, Hamas have specified that the tunnels are for Hamas soldiers and operations.

@Hellers their civilians are not a priority to Hamas whether it's protecting them or feeding and watering them.

Thanks for the answers. I am so sorry for the people having to live there under attack and with no basic protection. That's not right.

It's simply amazing but not surprising that on none of the demos do any protestors call for Hamas to use some of their billions for sheltering their people. Nor do they seem to protest what the Hamas leaders are saying about their lack of care for Gazan people.

When called out so many posters on MN don't decry it either and it makes me wonder if they really care at all about people in Gaza.

Well it seems Hamas didn't get that memo.

"It’s not a free for all because Israel wants to achieve a specific military objective"

That's a ridiculous statement.

If Israel wanted a 'free for all' they'd have nuked Gaza City and had done with it.

You can shout 'deflection !' as loud as you like, it's still a valid question.

While you're at it, see if you can include 'genocide', apartheid state', 'war crimes',
'whataboutery', illegal occupation' and 'land grab' in your next answer.

5 points for each and 'Ethnic cleansing' is your starter for 10, 🙄

I have provided resources to back up the relevant use of all of those terms.

on apartheid- I’ve linked the reports of amnesty international, human rights watch and Bt’selem.

on genocide - I’ve referenced statements from UN officials supporting this allegation. In additional to hateful rhetoric from the Israeli government.

on war crimes - again myself and other posters have provided references to support this. This is an allegation many are making against Israel.

the illegal occupation is a factual reality. Go look up the million UN resolutions on this.

I’m sorry if these terms are not comfortable for you, but their constant use is perfectly legitimate in the context of all and any conversations relating to Israel’s actions in Palestine and its treatment of the Palestinian people. Past and present.

and I could throw your argument right back at you in terms of the repetitive responses I’ve received by some of the posters on these threads, including false and frankly disgusting allegations re antisemitism.

Finally, if you disagree with me that’s fine, but I’m not communicating further with someone not prepared to engage respectfully.

Getting huffy about respectful debate is a bit rich coming from someone who told another poster they “sound deranged” for discussing their family's experience of oppression and trauma. Is there anyone left on this thread that you are actually still talking to?

@Hellers I agree, the whole situation is so very far from right. Hopefully, all the parties involved will be held to account for their appalling actions, both Israeli government and terrorist groups, and more reasonable heads can prevail in the future.

Edited for a missing word.

There were rules of war in WWII by the way. Japan did not always follow them which was terrible. The Geneva Convention applied. Both the UK and Germany largely respected those rules and how prisoners of war were handled.

Terrorists like Hamas however have absolutely no interest in following rules and do not care if their people die whom they just regard as cannon fodder. Hamas knew exactly what it was doing when it chose to invade Israel.

So you’re saying that international rules to avoid killing innocent people are ok not to be followed because they weren’t 80 years ago 🤦🏻‍♀️

@EasterIssland I really can't see what your getting at.
I read it that rules of war aren't always respected and they have been in place a long time.
If we are expecting all concerned to respect the rules of war perhaps we can start with the treatment of Shani Louk. Not a soldier. The positioning of hostages under a refugee camp.

Enter the whataboutery.....

Genuine question, regardless of the behaviour of Hamas, do you really believe Israel’s actions are justifiable? cutting off water, electricity, fuel, food, internet, the heavy bombing etc.,
is your view honestly that Israel cannot bear any responsibility or blame for the devastating consequences these actions are having practically on 2.3 million people?

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/have-war-crimes-been-committed-in-israel-and-gaza-and-what-international-laws-apply

Interesting article on war crimes - both Israel and Hamas are as bad as each other.