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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

To think Israel won't exist much longer?

890 replies

sergeantsalt · 28/10/2023 07:56

Support in the west is declining, and when Israel doesn't have weapons and defense funding they won't be able to defend against their neighbouring countries on their own. AIBU to wonder how much longer it can exist given they are losing support?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
78
SomeCatFromJapan · 30/10/2023 09:00

But it's done now. Israel is here and exists and will clearly fight anyone who attempts to change that. So best those around it work on acceptance, because any other approach isn't working out well for them.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:01

HoldOnMiGenna · 30/10/2023 08:39

Why in a world where Islam started worldwide religious conquest of lands and peoples, followed by Christianity would "another country" gift Jewish people enough land to build a nation when Israel is historically Jewish? Why is the only Jewish nation in the world so contentious for so many when there is hardly a nation, much less any nation where religiosity is ingrained into its identity that hasn't been wrought by conquest and displacement?
Nobody who is "pro Palestine" or "anti Zionist" as a part of their political identity has ever been able to answer me this question on my three and a half decades of my asking it. Especially in light of Muslim and Christian conquest and forced conversion of lands and swathes of people crossing all continents, with Judaism the only Abrahamic religion where conversion is not an important tenet and any conversion is far from being as easy as with Islamic or Christian conversion.

Do people not know the chronological order of Abrahamic religions with Judaism being by far the oldest and Islam the youngest?
Would these same people suggest that the imperialist Islamism that has caused and still causes reactions all over the world, stop?
Or do Black and Brown lives only matter if a White/ Whitish person/ peoples can be blamed for their degradation?
I don't see the same gyration and attempted erasure when mixed Arab Muslim Sudanese oppress the indigenous Black African and Muslim Sudanese to the point of there being a far flung diaspora of Dinka people all over the world.
I do not see the suggestion that the Fulani bugger off to Saudi Arabia so that the murderous Islamism in Nigeria can ease off.
I haven't seen a trailer load of threads condemning Saudi destruction of a Muslim Yemen which is already one of the poorest countries in the world, even though any regular Brit commercial TV watcher cannot escape Gemma Chan and Ewan McGregor's faces begging money on behalf of aid for Yemenese people.
So when it's Brown against Black Muslim genocide and displacement or Arab against Arab Muslim genocide and displacement , all which make Israeli pushbacks against surrounding incursions from 1948 look like a playground fight....it's silence and no Muslim or "ally" cri de coeur about oppression or genocide, racism , no bawling about Brown lives not mattering and certainly no mention of there being as much of a racial heirarchy amongst Muslims as in The West and most certainly no mention of Muslims buggering off to Saudi Arabia, the better to live good in the land of provenance of their religion, the better not to experience Islamophobia or pushback against their presence near to anywhere or anywhere non Muslim? Or is victim blaming only a thing for Jewish people ?
Imagine typing so confidently as if the notion of ONE Jewish state in this world is up for debate or a reshuffle like a pack of cards, to be decided by non Israelis?
And then imagine how anti Semitism is so ingrained into the fabric of the world that one can type this suggestion and still choose to press "enter" with the caveat that nobody is to bite of their head in reply.
I'm not Jewish. But I will go to my grave thinking that anti Semetism is a Red Flag for anti Blackness, misogyny and homophobia ( internalised and not).....or at the very best, an ability to compartmentalise to the point of sociopathy.

Because that "nation" already had a nation living there! To make ridiculous statements like this is only evidence of the attempt to dehistorisize and dehumanise the lives of Palestinian people (of all religions).
The expectation that the Palestinians should be happy that 78% of their land was taken is so totally bizarre and devoid of reasoning. I have challenged any poster who makes these silly statements and asked them if they would give up their houses for people across the world who were historically persecuted, and strangely enough they said "no". But oddly they expect the Palestinians to up sticks and merrily leave 🤔. It's all fine when it doesn't personally affect you.
The reality is if you support Israel in it's policy then you have to agree to the eradication, expulsion and ethnic cleansing of non Jewish people.

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:05

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 08:49

It's quite likely that Saxons lived on the land where my house is built now. Should descendants of Saxons from America come now and legitimately claim my home? These are the homes of individual people here you are talking about that have been taken.
AFAIK Jewish people believe the land of Israel was promised to them by God, therefore it is rightfully theirs? That is forcing everyone else to accept this as a religious ideology - which is grossly unfair. Why should Muslims, Christians and Bahai's be forced to leave when they have been living there for thousands of years? Why is one ethno religious group more important than others to the extent that is causes ethnic cleansing? Why should that be acceptable? I'm asking that genuinely here, because that is the root problem.

Show quote history

But Israel has plenty of people of all those backgrounds and religions living there. They've not been forced to leave. Jews are not more important. Have you ever been to Haifa? Seen the Baha'i gardens? They're still there.

When I was in Netanya about 9 years ago I remember saying to a relative "it's so nice to see these builders stopping their work to pray without fearing persecution". They were Muslim. Meanwhile my synagogue in the UK has a minimum of four guards outside at any one time to allow us to pray safely.

Israel is multicultural, as it should be. As it hopefully always will be.

Yes Jews feel like the land should be theirs because of things like the temples having been built there. Isn't that also why Muslims think it should be theirs? Why is it only a problem when Jews say or think it?

Eatapeach · 30/10/2023 09:05

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SomeCatFromJapan · 30/10/2023 09:05

Okay see what now, you keep supporting Palestine by telling it how unfair it all is and they should fight against Israel to win their land back?
Because just look what that has done. Thousands dead on both sides.

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 09:06

OhHelloTheres · Yesterday 02:59

About 8,000 dead Palestinians, mostly civilians and including more than three thousand children and to you, Israel aren't killing large numbers of people.

Come on! Please argue honestly.

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:10

@feralunderclass
"It's quite likely that Saxons lived on the land where my house is built now. Should descendants of Saxons from America come now and legitimately claim my home? These are the homes of individual people here you are talking about that have been taken."

Jews didn't come and claim homes. They bought land, then lived on that land. Would you let someone else live in your house rent free if you wanted to live there yourself?

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:12

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 09:06

OhHelloTheres · Yesterday 02:59

About 8,000 dead Palestinians, mostly civilians and including more than three thousand children and to you, Israel aren't killing large numbers of people.

Come on! Please argue honestly.

What exactly do you think I said? Because it doesn't seem to add up to what I actually said.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:15

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:05

But Israel has plenty of people of all those backgrounds and religions living there. They've not been forced to leave. Jews are not more important. Have you ever been to Haifa? Seen the Baha'i gardens? They're still there.

When I was in Netanya about 9 years ago I remember saying to a relative "it's so nice to see these builders stopping their work to pray without fearing persecution". They were Muslim. Meanwhile my synagogue in the UK has a minimum of four guards outside at any one time to allow us to pray safely.

Israel is multicultural, as it should be. As it hopefully always will be.

Yes Jews feel like the land should be theirs because of things like the temples having been built there. Isn't that also why Muslims think it should be theirs? Why is it only a problem when Jews say or think it?

Show quote history

Lovely bit of gaslighting and whitewashing over occupation and atrocities. Yes, it's so lovely that a small group of Muslims are allowed to pray without persecution. How very kind of Israel, the only democracy in the region 🙄. If you'd opened your eyes past the praying group and the Baha'i Gardens you might have seen the continuous human rights violations. And Palestinians didn't "leave", they were forced. This is a stated fact by UN and other organizations that Israel attempts to undermine for speaking the truth.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:17

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:10

@feralunderclass
"It's quite likely that Saxons lived on the land where my house is built now. Should descendants of Saxons from America come now and legitimately claim my home? These are the homes of individual people here you are talking about that have been taken."

Jews didn't come and claim homes. They bought land, then lived on that land. Would you let someone else live in your house rent free if you wanted to live there yourself?

And they are still buying homes on illegaly confiscated land.

Parkingt111 · 30/10/2023 09:18

NotSuchASmugMarried · 29/10/2023 22:52

I would bet that the Israeli intelligence service have received credible information that they are.

Think about it. Attacking a hospital full of civilians doesn't give them any military advantage does it? So why would they risk their lives doing so?

Show quote history

What about bakeries? Does it give the Israeli military any advantage in bombing those? When food is already so scarce and people are literally starving?
Because they bombed quite a few of them

To think Israel won't exist much longer?
OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:19

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:15

Lovely bit of gaslighting and whitewashing over occupation and atrocities. Yes, it's so lovely that a small group of Muslims are allowed to pray without persecution. How very kind of Israel, the only democracy in the region 🙄. If you'd opened your eyes past the praying group and the Baha'i Gardens you might have seen the continuous human rights violations. And Palestinians didn't "leave", they were forced. This is a stated fact by UN and other organizations that Israel attempts to undermine for speaking the truth.

Show quote history

No, not all Palestinians were forced to leave. The majority did so because they were told to by other Arab nations.

You can keep repeating yourself, it still won't make what you're saying true.

Yes, some were forced to leave. Others weren't.

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:20

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:17

And they are still buying homes on illegaly confiscated land.

Show quote history

They bought land from the rich landlords who lived overseas.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:22

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:05

But Israel has plenty of people of all those backgrounds and religions living there. They've not been forced to leave. Jews are not more important. Have you ever been to Haifa? Seen the Baha'i gardens? They're still there.

When I was in Netanya about 9 years ago I remember saying to a relative "it's so nice to see these builders stopping their work to pray without fearing persecution". They were Muslim. Meanwhile my synagogue in the UK has a minimum of four guards outside at any one time to allow us to pray safely.

Israel is multicultural, as it should be. As it hopefully always will be.

Yes Jews feel like the land should be theirs because of things like the temples having been built there. Isn't that also why Muslims think it should be theirs? Why is it only a problem when Jews say or think it?

Show quote history

It's only a problem when one group want to claim the land as theirs, as given by God, and this results in mass immigration from around the world which results in the expulsion, human rights violations, murder, torture, detention and ethnic cleansing of the other group. It's not comiplicated at all.

Auvergne63 · 30/10/2023 09:22

HoldOnMiGenna · 30/10/2023 08:39

Why in a world where Islam started worldwide religious conquest of lands and peoples, followed by Christianity would "another country" gift Jewish people enough land to build a nation when Israel is historically Jewish? Why is the only Jewish nation in the world so contentious for so many when there is hardly a nation, much less any nation where religiosity is ingrained into its identity that hasn't been wrought by conquest and displacement?
Nobody who is "pro Palestine" or "anti Zionist" as a part of their political identity has ever been able to answer me this question on my three and a half decades of my asking it. Especially in light of Muslim and Christian conquest and forced conversion of lands and swathes of people crossing all continents, with Judaism the only Abrahamic religion where conversion is not an important tenet and any conversion is far from being as easy as with Islamic or Christian conversion.

Do people not know the chronological order of Abrahamic religions with Judaism being by far the oldest and Islam the youngest?
Would these same people suggest that the imperialist Islamism that has caused and still causes reactions all over the world, stop?
Or do Black and Brown lives only matter if a White/ Whitish person/ peoples can be blamed for their degradation?
I don't see the same gyration and attempted erasure when mixed Arab Muslim Sudanese oppress the indigenous Black African and Muslim Sudanese to the point of there being a far flung diaspora of Dinka people all over the world.
I do not see the suggestion that the Fulani bugger off to Saudi Arabia so that the murderous Islamism in Nigeria can ease off.
I haven't seen a trailer load of threads condemning Saudi destruction of a Muslim Yemen which is already one of the poorest countries in the world, even though any regular Brit commercial TV watcher cannot escape Gemma Chan and Ewan McGregor's faces begging money on behalf of aid for Yemenese people.
So when it's Brown against Black Muslim genocide and displacement or Arab against Arab Muslim genocide and displacement , all which make Israeli pushbacks against surrounding incursions from 1948 look like a playground fight....it's silence and no Muslim or "ally" cri de coeur about oppression or genocide, racism , no bawling about Brown lives not mattering and certainly no mention of there being as much of a racial heirarchy amongst Muslims as in The West and most certainly no mention of Muslims buggering off to Saudi Arabia, the better to live good in the land of provenance of their religion, the better not to experience Islamophobia or pushback against their presence near to anywhere or anywhere non Muslim? Or is victim blaming only a thing for Jewish people ?
Imagine typing so confidently as if the notion of ONE Jewish state in this world is up for debate or a reshuffle like a pack of cards, to be decided by non Israelis?
And then imagine how anti Semitism is so ingrained into the fabric of the world that one can type this suggestion and still choose to press "enter" with the caveat that nobody is to bite of their head in reply.
I'm not Jewish. But I will go to my grave thinking that anti Semetism is a Red Flag for anti Blackness, misogyny and homophobia ( internalised and not).....or at the very best, an ability to compartmentalise to the point of sociopathy.

I cannot believe no one has ever answered your question. I will try. It's contentious because the land was forcibly taken from the Palestinians on the ground of a God given right. Guess what? It's still is.
Finally, I am fully aware of the chronology of the Abrahamic religions as I have taught RE for the last 20 years.
By the way, you are automatically Jewish through your mother's line. Conversion is not something viewed as needed as other religions.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:27

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:19

No, not all Palestinians were forced to leave. The majority did so because they were told to by other Arab nations.

You can keep repeating yourself, it still won't make what you're saying true.

Yes, some were forced to leave. Others weren't.

Show quote history

Do you think people willingly made themselves refugees? Gave up farms that had been in the family for many generations? Did the people of Deir Yassin just leave as advised by the neighbours, or were they mass raped, with foetuses ripped out of their wombs and killed in front of them? Did they then quietly leave, or were they not massacred?

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:28

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:22

It's only a problem when one group want to claim the land as theirs, as given by God, and this results in mass immigration from around the world which results in the expulsion, human rights violations, murder, torture, detention and ethnic cleansing of the other group. It's not comiplicated at all.

Show quote history

No, it's a problem when more than one group want to claim the land as theirs, as given by G-d. That's where the problems lie. If only one people wanted the land, the land would've been theirs. People would've lived alongside everyone else and it wouldn't have been a problem.

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:35

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:27

Do you think people willingly made themselves refugees? Gave up farms that had been in the family for many generations? Did the people of Deir Yassin just leave as advised by the neighbours, or were they mass raped, with foetuses ripped out of their wombs and killed in front of them? Did they then quietly leave, or were they not massacred?

Show quote history

Yes, a lot of people did willingly make themselves refugees, in the sense that they went along with what they were told to do by Arab leaders and left. Others didn't want to leave their farms but as the farms weren't actually theirs, they were tenants not land owners, they had to leave when the land was bought.

Deir Yassin is one of the examples of when they were forcibly removed by what I can only really call a terrorist organisation. I know they called themselves a paramilitary group but really, they were terrorists. Those events were disgusting.

I thought we weren't allowed to talk about babies being ripped out of women's bodies though without actual proof? Because when that happened in Israel just over three weeks ago we were told it didn't happen unless they could see the proof. Rightfully so, I guess.

Anyway, unless you're under the false impression that hundreds of thousands of people lived in Deir Yassin I think we can all agree that was a minority. It should absolutely never have happened, it was disgusting and deplorable.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:42

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:28

No, it's a problem when more than one group want to claim the land as theirs, as given by G-d. That's where the problems lie. If only one people wanted the land, the land would've been theirs. People would've lived alongside everyone else and it wouldn't have been a problem.

Show quote history

We need to stop with the "we all could have lived happily together" nonsense, because that was never the intention of Israel. 78% of Palestine became Israel in 1948, with a huge number of Palestinians being forced from their homes. Over the years more and more land has been confiscated, and Palestinians are supposed to be happy with any crumbs they've been thrown. As Israel expands every year, it's not rocket science that even more land and resources will be needed. I suspect we might see some settlements in Gaza in the near future... If only the selfish, heartless Palestinians could learn to live together 🙄

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 09:51

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 09:42

We need to stop with the "we all could have lived happily together" nonsense, because that was never the intention of Israel. 78% of Palestine became Israel in 1948, with a huge number of Palestinians being forced from their homes. Over the years more and more land has been confiscated, and Palestinians are supposed to be happy with any crumbs they've been thrown. As Israel expands every year, it's not rocket science that even more land and resources will be needed. I suspect we might see some settlements in Gaza in the near future... If only the selfish, heartless Palestinians could learn to live together 🙄

Show quote history

They could have all lived in peace. It's what Israel signed up to. The Palestinians refused. Multiple times.

What on earth makes you think Israel needs more land?! They have all of the Negev desert still to develop 🤦🏻‍♀️ You're so delusional it's unreal.

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 10:03

Yes, a lot of people did willingly make themselves refugees, in the sense that they went along with what they were told to do by Arab leaders and left.

That's arrant nonsense, they thought that they were evacuating temporarily, to avoid being caught up in a war zone. The Israelis then pretended that nobody lived there and that it was theirs for the taking.

feralunderclass · 30/10/2023 10:06

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 10:03

Yes, a lot of people did willingly make themselves refugees, in the sense that they went along with what they were told to do by Arab leaders and left.

That's arrant nonsense, they thought that they were evacuating temporarily, to avoid being caught up in a war zone. The Israelis then pretended that nobody lived there and that it was theirs for the taking.

Yes, and many still have deeds of what was their land. No right to return of course.

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 10:09

I know, people still living, not allowed to return to their own land.

OhHelloTheres · 30/10/2023 10:15

SinnerBoy · 30/10/2023 10:03

Yes, a lot of people did willingly make themselves refugees, in the sense that they went along with what they were told to do by Arab leaders and left.

That's arrant nonsense, they thought that they were evacuating temporarily, to avoid being caught up in a war zone. The Israelis then pretended that nobody lived there and that it was theirs for the taking.

... So they left? Why would they be allowed back when they showed they're perfectly happy for their neighbours to be killed? They took a gamble and they lost.