Two state solution

[Babybearissleeping]

Can someone please explain to me why palastinians are against a two state solution? Or is it just Hamas that don't want this?

I know it's not a simple solution to implement but seems the only solution to me.

[BadFaith]

The opposition is rooted in hatred of Jewish people and the very existence of a Jewish state. I don’t know how to begin to explain how much Hamas hate Israel except to point you at the atrocities of October 7.

[feralunderclass]

The very recently ex UN High Commissioner for HR Craig Mokhiber was interviewed this morning and was asked the same question. He said the official response always has to be in support of the two state solution, but in reality this would mean that the oppression of the Palestinians will still continue. He said there has never in history been a two state solution proposed other than in Israel/Palestine, and only will the Palestinians have equal rights in a single state. The two state solution was never intended to be a fair and equal division, where the Palestinians can self determine.

[TakeMe2Insanity]

Because the two state solution would literally be King Solomon and the two mothers. The fake mother says yes chop the baby is half we’ll each get a bit, the real mother says no!

[DownNative]

@feralunderclass

The very recently ex UN High Commissioner for HR Craig Mokhiber was interviewed this morning and was asked the same question. He said the official response always has to be in support of the two state solution, but in reality this would mean that the oppression of the Palestinians will still continue. He said there has never in history been a two state solution proposed other than in Israel/Palestine, and only will the Palestinians have equal rights in a single state. The two state solution was never intended to be a fair and equal division, where the Palestinians can self determine.

Never been proposed in history?

What do you think the two State solution on the island of Ireland is?!

Or the one where India became India and Pakistan?!

And other examples.

I'm sure you're misquoting him as well.

[Hellers]

Was just going to point out the Ireland example but it has been done for me. The key to that one was a willingness to sit down together to discuss solutions and a willingness to compromise from both sides. Unfortunately I can't see that happening in the current situation. I believe it has been tried before.

[feralunderclass]

Ireland is not equivalent (although there are some similarities). Free movement and right of nationality is permitted in Northern Ireland for Irish citizens. This would not be the case in Israel for Palestinians. I repeat, the two state solution relies on the continued oppression and human rights violations of the Palestinian people.

[littleripper]

@TakeMe2Insanity

Because the two state solution would literally be King Solomon and the two mothers. The fake mother says yes chop the baby is half we’ll each get a bit, the real mother says no!

🤦‍♀️

[DownNative]

@feralunderclass

Ireland is not equivalent (although there are some similarities). Free movement and right of nationality is permitted in Northern Ireland for Irish citizens. This would not be the case in Israel for Palestinians. I repeat, the two state solution relies on the continued oppression and human rights violations of the Palestinian people.

You're blatantly shifting the Goalposts now as that isn't what you argued in the first place!

Fact is a two State solution is not uncommon. And its still the most popular option.

[Hellers]

It's possible Israel would allow it. I've been looking at some of the facts and according to the CIA world factbook Arabs account 21% of the Israeli population. Are they denied Israeli citizenship? Genuine question as I don't know.

[Totalblindnessofthesoul]

You have a house and someone takes over it, and locks you and your family in the basement for years. They then offer you a deal of also having the box room (but no way to get between the two). Is it a good deal or would you just want your house back?

Its an oversimplification, but fundamentally aaccepting a 2 state solution means the Palestinians get less than they originally had still. The thing is, time has moved on, and the 'new' people in the house aren't really new any more, have settled down, had families etc, and making them homeless isn't really any better. Coupled with that, they are backed up by powerful friends.

So the pragmatic solution is a 2 state solution, but it needs to be a viable and independent state. Israel supporting settlers in the west bank undermines their commitment, and Israel blowing up gazas airport and seaport further adds doubts that any state would be actually independent.

There'd need to be faith in both sides. Setting aside this current conflict, there can be no trust until Hamas (or other group) stop firing rockets, until the IDF stop bombing/detaining prisoners without charge/shooting people. Israel needs to not try to control everything going in/out. Both sides need to dial down the genocidal talk.

[Icefoot]

@BadFaith

The opposition is rooted in hatred of Jewish people and the very existence of a Jewish state. I don’t know how to begin to explain how much Hamas hate Israel except to point you at the atrocities of October 7.

This is the part I struggle with. In a very simplistic response why do they need a Jewish state? (I know, the promised land, but no one seems to be applying other teachings from the Old Testament currently, love thy neighbour?)

Why isn't the aim for everyone live together? We couldn't call for a Christian state, for example.

[DownNative]

@Hellers

Was just going to point out the Ireland example but it has been done for me. The key to that one was a willingness to sit down together to discuss solutions and a willingness to compromise from both sides. Unfortunately I can't see that happening in the current situation. I believe it has been tried before.

On the contrary, the key was the defeat of PIRA, especially since they'd always rejected the principle of consent, partition, presence of British Government, Northern Ireland still in the UK, Stormont and Dublin Castle (yes, really!).

They wouldn't have accepted any of that in Belfast Agreement if they had the capability to continue their terrorism. A reminder PSF/PIRA didn't get any of their long held key core demands in the Agreement.

Today, the IRA which the media call New IRA fully accepts they cannot defeat the British Government and that any futile attack they do is symbolic for propaganda purposes.

So, political solutions go hand in hand with the security solution. It is the security solution that makes political settlements possible. Not the other way round.

[PurpleChrayne]

@feralunderclass

Ireland is not equivalent (although there are some similarities). Free movement and right of nationality is permitted in Northern Ireland for Irish citizens. This would not be the case in Israel for Palestinians. I repeat, the two state solution relies on the continued oppression and human rights violations of the Palestinian people.

It doesn't at all.

Why are you so obsessed with painting the Palestinians as the oppressed victims in this? It's a violently Anti-Semitic regime that wants to destroy Israel. Why is that so hard to see?

[Hellers]

Ok fair point DownNative. Still can't see side in the current conflict having confidence in creating a security solution, it would mean compromise from both sides.

[SharonEllis]

@Icefoot

This is the part I struggle with. In a very simplistic response why do they need a Jewish state? (I know, the promised land, but no one seems to be applying other teachings from the Old Testament currently, love thy neighbour?)

Why isn't the aim for everyone live together? We couldn't call for a Christian state, for example.

Have you heard of the Holocaust? Prior to that pogroms across Russia & other parts of Europe? Massacre of jews in England? Thrown out of England 14th century & not allowed to return until the 1650s? Look at the Jewish population in the middle east in 1900. Look at it now (barely any jews anywhere dur to persecution & murder). The global population of jews has not recovered, still, from the holocaust.

Have you done NO reading on this topic at all??

Israel has never been a wholly Jewish state - about 25% are not jewish. There are Christians, muslims etc etc.

Israelis, with the exception of a few extremists, would be very happy to live with other faiths. Many of those tortured & murdered on 7 October were peace activists at kibbutzim who worked with gazans. However Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranians have vowed to eliminate the state of Israel and kill ALL Jews. Please, please, try to understand this.

[ketchup07070]

Two states is not on the table at this time, OP. The founding charter of Likud, Netanyahu's party, states that 'between the sea and the river Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.' This means the current Israeli government wishes to rule the whole territory. This means the situation is in deadlock, with both Hamas and the current Israeli government opposed to two state solutions.

[feralunderclass]

@DownNative

You're blatantly shifting the Goalposts now as that isn't what you argued in the first place!

Fact is a two State solution is not uncommon. And its still the most popular option.

What did I argue in the first place?

[feralunderclass]

@ketchup07070

Two states is not on the table at this time, OP. The founding charter of Likud, Netanyahu's party, states that 'between the sea and the river Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.' This means the current Israeli government wishes to rule the whole territory. This means the situation is in deadlock, with both Hamas and the current Israeli government opposed to two state solutions.

As I understand it it is Israel who are against the two state solution currently. The UN security councils 242 proposal states that Israel should give up rights to land it occupied in 1967, and is refusing to do so. This is settlements in the West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem.

[Hellers]

That's an interesting question. If Israel was declared a secular state, guaranteeing the security and rights of all religions equally would it make any difference? From what I can see I don't think so. I think they'd still have to protect their Jewish population.

[SharonEllis]

Read this and most importantly watch the clip within the article where a Hamas leader makes their position crystal clear. Hamas will never accept a 2 state solution. Every serious attempt has been scuppered by the Palestinians, even before Hamas came to power after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.

[ketchup07070]

@@feralunderclass Ah, OK. I just read the 1977 Likud founding charter recently. It does state they need to maintain control of West Bank and encourage settlements, which would rule out 67 borders. I've no idea of Hamas position on all this, but the 2 state looks like a stalemate with current political leadership.

[Icefoot]

@SharonEllis

Have you heard of the Holocaust? Prior to that pogroms across Russia & other parts of Europe? Massacre of jews in England? Thrown out of England 14th century & not allowed to return until the 1650s? Look at the Jewish population in the middle east in 1900. Look at it now (barely any jews anywhere dur to persecution & murder). The global population of jews has not recovered, still, from the holocaust.

Have you done NO reading on this topic at all??

Israel has never been a wholly Jewish state - about 25% are not jewish. There are Christians, muslims etc etc.

Israelis, with the exception of a few extremists, would be very happy to live with other faiths. Many of those tortured & murdered on 7 October were peace activists at kibbutzim who worked with gazans. However Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranians have vowed to eliminate the state of Israel and kill ALL Jews. Please, please, try to understand this.

Well of course I've heard of the holocaust, thank you, but I don't know why it's used to justify what's happeing now, which seems scarily similar.

[Ibizafun]

@Hellers

It's possible Israel would allow it. I've been looking at some of the facts and according to the CIA world factbook Arabs account 21% of the Israeli population. Are they denied Israeli citizenship? Genuine question as I don't know.

Arabs in Israel have Israeli citizenship

[aswarmofmidges]

@SharonEllis

Read this and most importantly watch the clip within the article where a Hamas leader makes their position crystal clear. Hamas will never accept a 2 state solution. Every serious attempt has been scuppered by the Palestinians, even before Hamas came to power after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.

Reading the history is fascinating

Way before Hamas was in charge attempts were made to negotiate

• like the Israeli one that insisted on Israeli army control of Palestine until the Israelis decided otherwise - can't imagine why that was rejected can you ?

The Israelis then didn't respond to a proposal to not have their army in Palestine

So it has always cut both ways


But in recent years the situation has been allowed to fester

[Icefoot]

@Ibizafun

Arabs in Israel have Israeli citizenship

They have to give it up if they leave though, which Jews don't.