Justifying the rape of women

[armchairactivist1]

Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
Post edited by MNHQ

The reason I make that accusation is nothing to do with wanting the rapes of Israeli women "downplayed" and everything to do with being fed up of women's experiences being used by men to justify whatever ends they want.

In the UK rape is effectively decriminalised. Try to discuss ways to change that and men will shout you down about "innocent until proven guilty" and "better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man is jailed".

Then when it comes to waging war men are happy to go on about how barbaric rape is, it can't be tolerated and the rapists need to be eradicated

It is rank hypocrisy and I also find it extremely disrespectful to the victims that their names and faces are continuously shown to justify the war. Like the author of that article says, it "ventriloquises" them.

@AdamRyan I disagree with that sorry. I don't think they are continuously shown to justify the war. They are shown because Israel wants them back and western feminists and governments refused to believe what happened to them 'without evidence'

The UN has provided their report and the silence is palpable. Keeping their images in the public eye keeps their humanity in the public eye and means they won't be forgotten.

The same with Hersch. I see his mum every day talk about what he is going through, his likes and dislikes, she keeps him in the public eye so he won't be forgotten. Her pain is our pain and I hope that things are resolved quickly.

Thanks @AdamRyan that is what I mean and I am in no way wanting this to be kept quiet, downplayed or denied.

It’s such an emotive issue. I think it can be hard for people to examine why there is so much focus on the sexual abuse (over and above how grim it was) and how it is being used as a political tool to justify a disproportionate response.

It makes me feel as though the victims agency has once again been taken away from them, as if their bodies and inferred minds belong to someone other than themselves.

I hope that they are able to focus on their own healing, and one day maybe some of them will want to, and feel able to, speak for themself.

The trouble is an awful lot of them are dead, because the rapes often also included being chopped to bits and/or burned alive. I honestly don't know what a "proportionate response" to that sort of thing is supposed to be, especially since Hamas has promised to keep repeating it until... well, river to sea etc.

It is really difficult to talk about any of this without appearing to minimize the suffering of one side or the other.

It was headline news on the BBC the day it was published

@Dibilnik I agree.

@PeasfullPerson I don't know how you can post some of that tosh in all honesty. Did you not read the report?

"as if their bodies and inferred minds belong to someone other than themselve'"

@AdamRyan so were the events of October 7th. Didn't stop people celebrating and taking to the streets. Didn't stop the cries of 'resistance' when talking about rape or discrediting Jewish voices.

I don't really see your point. And there have been many voices missing even after the report was published.

You said the silence is palpable.

From my position it isn't, the rapes are being discussed and the UN report was well publicised. I'm not sure what more you need to see to feel that it is being taken seriously.

@AdamRyan I get that. I disagree with you though.

OK.. that's fine. Not sure why you keep @ me about it then

Do you think we should shut up about the rapes on October 7th?

I’m not sure I understand the point you’re making. You suggest “men are happy to go on about how barbaric rape is, it can't be tolerated and the rapists need to be eradicated “ only in order to justify an attack. Maybe some men have done that …. and it is wrong.But the answer isn’t to shut down women …

“It is a shame that the common or garden rape of women is effective decriminalised in this country (and many others). “
Also - I’m not sure there is such a thing as a “ common or garden” rape

I mean that 98.4% of rapes in this country that don't result in a conviction. There is very little action on that, or even much interest. It is tolerated.

No. I posted a link to an article that made some very insightful points about how the rapes have been politicised. You can choose to engage on that, or not, but its not fair or realistic to say I'm "shutting down women" or trying to prevent discussion of the rapes.

@EllaDisenchanted thank you and I can understand that.

I’m just not sure what you are suggesting. Rape is being used as a weapon of war ( always has been). Are you suggesting that it is “politicising” rape to say that Israel might feel unsafe and under threat while Hamas is still active?
Im genuinely not sure what point you are making with the article .

This is a terrible statistic .
But the rapes and murders on October 7th were not just a terrible attack on women- they were part of a targeted assault on a country- an act of war. Rape used as a weapon to terrorise, humiliate and to provoke a response. (Hamas must have known their actions would have repercussions… ) It’s hard for me to see where the academic debate about the politicisation of rape fits into that .

"This is a terrible statistic, but....." kind of proves the point I was making.

Rape as an act of war in my mind is not more serious than rape as an act of power (as in most rapes).

Rape as an act of war in my mind is not more serious than any of the other atrocities being committed by both sides.

I find it disrespectful to the victims that their rapes are being held up as a way to justify the IDFs actions.

And I feel there are weird ownership/territorial connotations around the fact the victims have been raped as an act of war. "They raped our women, they deserve the worst punishment".

I'm a feminist so I recognise objectification of women when I see it, that's what is happening to the rape victims. Its just a different type of objectification to the usual. But it's still talking about women as objects or property.

I find it disrespectful to the victims that their rapes are being held up as a way to justify the IDFs actions.” Who is doing that?
I’m not sure(partly because of your user name)if you’re male or female. Normally it would be irrelevant but if you are male you are doing quite a bit of mansplaining about what rape is and what is or isn't disrespectful to the victims.
( My “but” was an attempt to switch back to the Oct 7 atrocities rather than derail and talk about” common or garden” rape as you call it. )

I'm female, and have experienced sexual assault on multiple occasions. Not that it is relevant.

I've seen posters on here give fairly graphic descriptions of the rapes as a way to shut down conversation about the Israeli government actions.

And I've seen more coverage of the rape of the October 7th victims/the UN report/the BBC report than I have seen in relation to any other war. And certainly way more coverage than the usual coverage of rape (where you often get a "falsely accused" man, for balance).

It seems hypocritical to me. And as far as I know none of the victims have shared their stories. It's their trauma and I find a lot of the speculation (e.g. about pregnant hostages or vaginal injuries) extremely distasteful and disrespectful. It feels like an invasion of their privacy.

I posted the article because it chimed with what I think.

Ok - understood. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you from your username. I understand that some people will find it disrespectful to talk about this - but others feel that we should not be silent.
I completely agree that confidentiality and privacy of individuals should be respected. (Although Hamas live streaming made it difficult to safeguard victims’ privacy) It should be possible to talk about what happened while safeguarding anonymity.
With regard the hostages’ names - I believe the families and friends WANTED to publicise names and alert the world to the danger the hostages were in ( hence the posters etc) I don’t think it is for us to decide that that is “politicising” the situation.
With regard to your point “I’ve seen more coverage of the rape of the October 7th victims/the UN report/the BBC report than I have seen in relation to any other war. And certainly way more coverage than the usual coverage of rape“
Do you think we should stop talking about it?

I already answered that question. And if I thought people should "stop talking about it" I wouldn't be posting on the thread.

" I've seen posters on here give fairly graphic descriptions of the rapes as a way to shut down conversation about the Israeli government actions" (I think that's quite an offensive statement)

That's not true and this thread is specifically to address the rapes. I could understand your point if it was on an IDF thread (where I do believe there have been repeated descriptions of alleged rape by the IDF) I have been addressing the issues with the rapes/ gang rapes/ mutilations of women not being taken seriously and ignored by feminists in this country and others (particularly us and Australia)

Vaginal injuries won't be talked about as the victims are dead.
The raping of hostages are from statements by other released hostages.
Under the circumstances very difficult to 'prove'. I find it distasteful and disgraceful that people are pushing hostages families to release information like this with a prove it' mentality. Israel was not allowed to just protect its women. Hence the releasing of footage under pressure. Luckily Hamas had constant footage to but even that was not enough.

There have been recent articles post UN report still minimising the attacks and either veering towards 'boys will be boys' and even 'it wasn't directed by Hamas but Palestinian civilians' Journalists sewing the seeds to undermine what occurred.

The discussion about rape statistics are not linked to this discussion as these rapes were part of an act of war- the same as the rape of Ukrainian women by Russian soldiers.

I won't @ you as you requested which seems rather odd given your responding to posts on here.

It is true stoma, not OK to call me a liar. I got a told about about nails in vaginas on a thread in here and said at the time I found it unnecessarily graphic and disrespectful.

I'm not sure why you are bringing up "pushing hostages families to release details. That is the opposite of what I'm doing. I think the victims and their families should be given whatever they need to process their trauma and it should be up to them if and when they talk about their experiences.

Rape is rape. Its not somehow different or worse when it's an act of war, in my opinion. I can't imagine why anyone would want to categorise rape into different severities