Nearly 5000 now dead, mostly women and children. Sickening.

[flashbac]

At what point will it stop? Why are the Palestinians seen as vermin? Ethnic cleansing is what this is.

I don't know why they're not allowed leave. They went to the border last week when they were told they'd be allowed leave but no one got out. I don't think anything has changed since then?

I hope they can leave soon. Though it will be horrendous for them to leave their family behind.

I can't understand why countries are not doing more to get their own citizens out, amongst other things that are mind boggling. I don't understand how the siege and bombing is not endangering hostages either. It's very strange, doesn't make sense.

The border is still closed to everything but aid in, because no deal has been struck to open the border to allow people out. A deal requires Egypt to come to an agreement with Israel - it can't just be opened unilaterally.

The UK government believes up to 60,000 British nationals are in Israel or Gaza.
Source BBC

We've heard so little about government efforts to get these citizens out of Gaza. We've heard a huge about the 200 hostages taken from Israel by Hamas.

Why isn't much more of a stink being made about this by our own government???

These aren't foreign nationals. These are British citizens.

And people are wondering why there are huge protests and people saying they support Hamas on British streets. These are people, who quite rightly, probably feel completely let down by the British government who are standing there saying they give support to Israel's right to defend itself.

All thats been said is that:
British nationals in Gaza told to be ready if the Rafah crossing opens

That was issued ten days ago now.

Can you imagine this in any other scenario and not more being made about it? It would be THE headline across the news. The fact its not says a lot.

There will be plenty of Brits who have non-British national friends and family in Gaza too.

Thats why feelings are running so high on this.

Because it is never clear who the 'they' are that people are so scared of. Not people who don't believe in 'Western values' that's for sure. And the reason that I put 'Western values' in quotes is again because it is never clear what these values people hold so dear are. They seem to conflate Israel with Western values but it is clear to most right minded people that Israel wouldn't know values if they smacked them in the face. So it seems to me that isn't about values at all, so what else could it possibly be about 🤔 Why would they care so much about one set of kids being massacred but stand behind the continual slaughter of another? Why hide behind the lie of values? Why not just say the real reason if it isn't Islamaphobic or racist?

@Gruntsandgroans

Oh but it was really really clear who 'they' referred to. I was in the middle of that discussion.

Ironically, the claim that western values are so uniquely unclear and undefinable is part of the other issue we were discussing - which was the decline of western civilization, partly as a result of postmodernism in the universities for several decades. That's the source of your definition problems.

'They seem to conflate Israel with Western values.'

People do believe that Israel shares more values with western countries than, say Saudi Arabia. Because of course it does, as you and everyone else knows.

'it is clear to most right minded people that Israel wouldn't know values if they smacked them in the face.'

I'm not sure what it means to say that an entire country 'wouldn't know values if they smacked them in the face' but I am sure that if I said the same about, say, Palestine, we'd be right back to 'sounds like the EDL in here!'. Do you see the problem?

Qatar, for example, is an explicitly Islamic state in which non-muslims are second class citizens. This is very relevant because of course Qatar funds Hamas. I would never say that 'Qatar wouldn't know values it they smacked them in the face'. Qataris have values, I just disagree with some of their fundamental ones.

The border was only opened to allow 20 trucks of aid. Nothing else. Israel’s terms.

People do believe that Israel shares more values with western countries than, say Saudi Arabia. Because of course it does, as you and everyone else knows.

Israel currently has a very right wing government which if it was in any other country we'd be raising eyebrows about.

Israel has a large section of the voting public which is very anti-lbgt and very anti-women's rights. This government is on the more conservative side. Its made up of a coaltion of parties: Likud (Netanyahu's Party which is right wing popularist), Shas (A religious party which is conservative), National Religious Party (a party which is religious and defined as far right and is zionist), United Torah Judaism (This is an alliance of Ashkenazi to maximise their representation), Otzma Yehudit (aka Jewish party and is deemed Far Right and has a reputation for being anti-arab) and finally Noam (another far right religious zionist party).

The current government very much has unsettled Israelis who are much more secular and liberal - and concerned them because the demographs are increasingly tilting away from secular and liberal politics because there is such a high birth rate amongst the more conservative religious groups in Israel. It is the most hardline, conservative and far right government there has been.

Do I REALLY have much more in common with hardline religious Israelis than I do with hardline religious Saudis?

The current Israeli government has much more in common in Trump's Republicans or Hungary's Viktor Orban - neither of whom particularly reflect 'western values' and both of which have a reputation for being openly racist, against the operation of proper justice for all, being illiberal and totalitarian in nature.

Its at complete odds with the general nature of European politics and traditions since the second world war. It certainly would be deemed unfavourably by the UK government if it wasn't Israel. Even with the rise of the popularist right in Europe - Israel is still an outlier.

But Israel's government is also not very stable and theres been lots of infighting with the government being able to reach agreements between parties. One of the few things that unifies the parties is Hamas...

Lets talk business.

In March, Mr Cleverly and his Israeli counterpart Eli Cohen signed a long-term landmark agreement on the 2030 Roadmap for UK-Israeli Bilateral Relations.

The two met in London to put pen to paper on the multi-faceted commitment set to define relations between their respective countries for the coming years, enhancing ties in sectors including trade, cyber, science and tech, research and development, security, health, climate and gender.

Prior to that latest agreement, Cleverly said that the UK-Israel trade relationship was worth about £7bn, with more than 400 Israeli tech firms operating in the UK.

Israeli tech is a BIG deal. There's a lot of Israeli tech which is world leading. Israeli survelliance tech is particularly noteworthy.

There's something of a brain drain going on with this dynamic - if you are into science, you tend to be better educated and less religious. And its this same group who are getting increasingly nervous about the rise of the religious right in Israel. So what have this group being doing? They are highly mobile and able to move abroad. This means more secular Israelis have been leaving in recent years, making the religious hard right even more powerful.

Then theres the arms industry. The biggest exporter of arms to Israel is the US - its about 70% of Israeli arms imports, then on paper its Germany and Italy. The UK also sell a lot of weapons but our figures are mysteriously not transparent. But the point is that there's a hell of a lot of UK made kit, being used by Israel.

Thats something Israel has in common with Saudi Arabia. Arms Deals with the West.

Why does the West sell arms to the Saudis if they are so undemocratic, authoritarian and don't observe human rights well? Why do we turn a blind eye to that?

Oddly enough there was a lot of speculation that the timing of the Hamas attacks was just before Saudi was about to normalise relations with Israel. Why is Saudi - a Muslim country - ok dealing with the jewish state? Well that would probably owe a fair amount to the Islamic divisions between different Sunnis and Shias. Guess where Iran fits into the dynamic.

Can we try not to kid ourselves that this is remotely about 'shared values' as such? It doesn't really reflect reality. Israel is currently to the right of Trumpian politics, which takes some doing. And its more about something else.

I find this 'shared values' crap deeply cynical and about othering. Its part of this 'defending ourselves against terrorists' justification for the unjustifible. Can our government admit this? Of course not, because if they do, what are they actually saying? Its not very 'liberal' in nature is it?

It annoys me.

@RedToothBrush Interesting post.
'enhancing ties in sectors including trade, cyber, science and tech, research and development, security, health, climate and gender.'

But what is the 'gender sector'?

Thanks @RedToothBrush
Really interesting.
Might have to borrow you for a while from
the Ukraine board.

@RedToothBrush Oh, it's OK. I suppose it's relating to gender inequality.

@RedToothBrush I should have guessed someone would do that! The depths to which apologists will sink rarely astounds me, but you've managed it.

Of course you had to focus on the current government, rather than dealing with what I actual referred to, which was Israel. You also had to overlook some fairly basic things like the actual laws of Israel vs Saudi. Details, right...

'Do I REALLY have much more in common with hardline religious Israelis than I do with hardline religious Saudis?'

Of course, you're well aware that wasn't the question.

'Thats something Israel has in common with Saudi Arabia. Arms Deals with the West.'

Both countries are also populated by people. They also contain cars. All equally relevant.

Why does the West sell arms to the Saudis if they are so undemocratic, authoritarian and don't observe human rights well? Why do we turn a blind eye to that?'

Western governments would never sell arms to authoritarian undemocratic states that don't respect human rights, as we all know, so this clearly proves the Saudis have been misunderstood. This is sarcasm.

Just extraordinary stuff. But it's great that people, especially Jews, can observe that there are people, presumably in the UK, who believe that Saudi Arabia has more values in common with the west than Israel does.

So, do we all accept now that it was a Palestinian rocked that bombed the hospital in Gaza. Hamas are bombing their own people and blaming the Israelis .
It's Hamas that are holding the cards here. If they release the hostages then aid will flow in. Hamas don't care if their own people ( who elected them) die as long as they can bomb Israel

I don't know if it has been independently verified.

I do know that Israel has previously bombed that hospital (4 days prior to the event that you're talking about) and that they've bombed other hospitals and schools. There's a video doing the rounds of all the times hospitals have been bombed by Israel going back to 2014. It's pretty long.

If you accept it was a Palestinian rocket you also have to accept it malfunctioned and wasn't a deliberate attack on the hospital.

I'd like answers from Israel about why they faked a recording as evidence first. At the end of the day Israel say they have a right to bomb hospitals if they want, they have a track record of bombing hospitals, even if this one wasn't on them they still aren't any better than Hamas. They are a terroist state, and Hamas are a terrorist organisation. Two sides of the same coin. Meanwhile, 2,500 Palestinian children are dead and god knows how many are injured and traumatised.

You are talking bollocks though.

The major issue is that the UK - USA - Israel - Saudi have shared political and strategic goals. These fall, in part , along religious lines. And yes there is an element of racism and masses of prejudice going on within that. In part because the only way that you can sustain the narrative to ensure domestic support is to resort to certain propaganda to defend actions which are unacceptable under the values which we are supposedly upholding. That just looks like hypocrisy if you are caught in the crossfire.

And that's where a lot of people find themselves. Caught in the crossfire. And that's both Palestinians and Israelis. I'm certainly NOT an apologist for anything. I have a major problem with how we got to this point in the first place. The idea that any party is free from responsibility is quite frankly nuts.

How do you deescalate at this point? Quite honestly, it's not going to happen. It'll be at least another two generations now before there will be another chance.

It has suited politicians all around the world to let the mess limp on. No one has tried de-escalation for years. The US has had a period with Trump fanning flames and it's had a period of quite frankly indifference when progress could have been made because it was too busy elsewhere. The UK has just been a total basket case since we had our own political nervous breakdown.

And there's been no incentive from anywhere else to action anything either.

Until every party is at a point where it has simply had enough, it will carry on.

What is frustrating is the total lack of self awareness going on by the West and how failed leadership and constant gaslighting about how 'it was necessary' to do X, y or z and the shit excuses and lack of accountability when there have been clear failings over the last two or three decades.

A feeling of desparation and injustice is generally at the root cause of terrorism. Until you acknowledge that, you don't have a hope of changing the future. We are no where near that point.

I don't have time for either pro-israeli rhetoric or pro-Hamas rhetoric as a result. The only people I have any time for are those people caught in the crossfire who aren't being listened to because everyone else is too busy headbanging and shouting that they are more important than anyone else and everyone should capitulate to their demands.

For those that don't understand the nature of a war against organizations like Hamas, this is from 2014:

'During one short-lived lull in rocket fire, The Washington Post’s William Booth saw a “group of men” at a mosque in northern Gaza. They said they had returned to clean up glass from shattered windows. “But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque,” Booth wrote. He also reported that Shifa Hospital in Gaza City had “become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.”

Wall Street Journal reporter Nick Casey tweeted an image of a Hamas spokesman giving an interview at a Gaza hospital. With the shelling, “You have to wonder … how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” The tweet was later deleted'

Why Hamas stores its weapons inside hospitals, mosques and schools - The Washington Post

@RedToothBrush

'The major issue is that the UK - USA - Israel - Saudi have shared political and strategic goals.'

The major issue for whom? My 'issue', to which you responded, was that Israel
shares more values with western countries than, say, Saudi Arabia. You apparently believe the reverse - that Saudi shares more values with western countries than Israel does.

The rest of your post appears to have nothing to do with my point.

'A feeling of desparation and injustice is generally at the root cause of terrorism. Until you acknowledge that, you don't have a hope of changing the future.'

It's not a matter of 'acknowledging' that, as if it's some kind of statement of fact. It's leftist dogma, I refute it. I've explained why many times, as have others.

'I don't have time for either pro-israeli rhetoric or pro-Hamas rhetoric as a result.'

You had time for a lengthy bit of cultural relativist rhetoric defending poor old Saudi though.

'it is clear to most right minded people that Israel wouldn't know values if they smacked them in the face.'

Not a hint of an apology for that, no? That wasn't pro-Hamas rhetoric? So if I repeat that, replacing Palestine with Israel, we're all good? You won't be screaming about the EDL and asking MN to ban me for islamophobia and racism?

@Pollyputhekettleon you have more patience than I do....

👏👏

'it is clear to most right minded people that Israel wouldn't know values if they smacked them in the face.'

Not a hint of an apology for that, no? That wasn't pro-Hamas rhetoric? So if I repeat that, replacing Palestine with Israel, we're all good? You won't be screaming about the EDL and asking MN to ban me for islamophobia and racism?

No. I am talking about the terrorist state of Israel, the government. I didn't say all of the people of Israel. You can say that Hamas are whatever you what I don't care. I also wasn't screaming about anything and if someone has asked mumsnet to ban you it wasn't me, you can ask them if you like. i haven't reported any of your posts. Will you stop 'screaming' at me now?

We’re being pressured to accept what Israel is doing so we can have a “Western-friendly” state in the ME.

Asked to sell our souls, in other words.

I don’t know where all this is going to lead. Perhaps one result of all these new phones we’re buying with our souls is that with better communication the days of sweeping poor people’s mass murders under the carpet may be coming to an end.

As you are seeing by the response from Israel they may be a democracy but they are a very middle eastern state as well. I think people fall for the only American or Europe Jews live there, you now colonialist thing idiots say. However Iraq Jews for a start make up a large percentage of the population. Let alone Jews that fled the ethic cleansing of Jews in Arab states post 1948. I can promise you all the surrounding states would do the same thing in this situation and have done similar. At the moment this has nothing to do with what the west wants. In fact judging by the more neutral Arab states only making small noises of disapproval whilst meeting and shaking hands with Israel government. I would say there is an agreement between them and Israel to rid everyone of Hamas that they all hate also. Hamas causing trouble all the time undermines there economy and hurts their tourist industry. Look how Egypt has keep their blockade of Gaza even at times Israel is still letting people in to work their each day.

I just do not think anyone has been serious about sorting out the mess for years.

Everyone has been happy to turn a blind eye to unacceptable behaviour.

And theres been a slow creep on all sides which has built up a pressure cooker.

Poor old Saudi? Wtf? How do you come to that conclusion?

As for leftist! Pah.

I think they are all a bunch of bastards who regard human life as disposable if it suits. Every goddam single leader involved over the last 30 years. Its all been so shortsighted and no one without any concept of how it actually effects real people.

I'm not going to argue with you.

I haven't got time for it. The only ones I have any degree of giving a shit about are ordinary citizens who are caught up in the dick swinging.

This is an interesting view I didn’t hear before.