Nearly 5000 now dead, mostly women and children. Sickening.

[flashbac]

At what point will it stop? Why are the Palestinians seen as vermin? Ethnic cleansing is what this is.

So why is Israel saying that it’s Hamas’s fault that Israel is currently slaughtering thousands of innocent children?

Violence against innocent people is not actually a normal and automatic response to suffering violence.

The irony is off the scale here

To translate for those who'll miss it, this poster is no doubt claiming that I'm a hypocrite because I apply this logic to Hamas and not to Israel. A convenient but false assumption.

Spot on you're a hypocrite

What's good for the goose is good for the gander

Revenge attacks are either okay for both parties or neither

Violence begets violence in an ever increasing death spiral

There has to be a desire for dialogue and true listening with willingness to hear

Nice sentiments but when you have one party in this who refuses to have dialogue and refuses to shift from their position that the other should be wiped out, the sentiment becomes mere fantasy.

Hamas have a murderous ideology, this is not palatable to normal people and instead people tend to focus on them being the 'under dogs' and root for them for that reason, that is the power dynamics of the 'oppressed' and the 'oppressor'. This is despite the fact there are ~18 million Jews worldwide and billions of Muslims and the jewish people have no homeland other than Israel. The narrative is that Palestine are the oppressed, yet it is their ideology that is murderous - they literally want to wipe out Israel. And people say that 'Hamas is different to ordinary Palestinians' yet I have not yet seen one banner at a demonstration that says "not in my name" about the terrorist attacks, or anything remotely similar, there isn't any direct denouncement of Hamas' actions on 7th October, instead I get the feeling, as on this thread, that the attacks were 'to be expected'.

@Pollyputhekettleon your history lesson seems to leave out a fair amount about what happened. It leaves out such a huge amount I don't even know where to start. The UN voted in 1947 that Palestine be carved into two different states, one for Jewish people and one for Arabs. The amount given to Israel was larger compared to what was given to the Arabs despite there being (at that point) more Arab people there. Of course the Arabs did not accept this. I think a lot of what has happened since has flowed from this unfairness, I think there was a genuine desire to give the Jews a home after all that had happened in the Holocaust but doing this, by giving them a chunk of land that for most of history had belonged to others, was always going to cause problems.

This is incredibly offensive to abused children.

Anyway, when the British were proposing the partition of the Palestine Mandate, they looked to a recent population transfer between Greece and Turkey as a successful precedent. Let's just say the Greek Christians in Turkey had been having a fairly unpleasant time after the Islamic conquest and the imposition of the dhimmi system. Shocker. There were a few genocides.

The Greeks and Turks agreed that the best solution was to swap any Greek Christians in Turkey with any Turkish muslims in Greece, which they did in the early 1920s. That's why no one today hears about massacres of Greek Christians in Turkey anymore.

It was a vicious solution which sheltered westerners of today couldn't cope with, but it worked. No death spiral, no violence begetting violence, no terrorism.

Christians are now down to 0.2% of the Turkish population. They're still discriminated against of course but the population is now so small it doesn't make the news.

'A precedent is afforded by the exchange effected between the Greek and Turkish populations on the morrow of the Greco-Turkish War of 1922. A convention was signed by the Greek and Turkish Governments, providing that, under the supervision of the League of Nations, Greek nationals of the Orthodox religion living in Turkey should be compulsorily removed to Greece, and Turkish nationals of the Moslem religion living in Greece to Turkey. The numbers involved were high--no less than some 1,300,000 Greeks and some 400,000 Turks. But so vigorously and effectively was the task accomplished that within about eighteen months from the spring of 1923 the whole exchange was completed. The courage of the Greek and Turkish statesmen concerned has been justified by the result. Before the operation the Greek and Turkish minorities had been a constant irritant. Now Greco-Turkish relations are friendlier than they have ever been before.'

Text of the Peel Commission Report (jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

It makes no difference what the UN did. By 1947 the Arabs had already refused every single British partition proposal. Why did they refuse the offer of just 500 square miles for the Jews in 1938?

And who are these 'others' that the land belonged to? Are you saying that it didn't belong to those who lived there for centuries, which obviously includes the Jews and the Christians?

'In 1938, a new commission led by Sir John Woodhead made one more effort to come up with an acceptable partition proposal. That commission, again boycotted by the Palestinian Arabs, resulted in a complex and unworkable scheme that tried to alleviate Arab worries by increasing the size of the Mandatory portion of Palestine to include the Galilee. The Jewish State would consist of a small coastal area approximately 500 square miles in area. This proposal was rejected by both sides, and while its rejection by the Zionists was understandable, one can only wonder at its rejection by the Arabs. It was certainly a much better deal, from the Arab perspective, than the 1947 UN Partition Plan, which was also rejected by the Arabs.'

The Peel Commission Report of 1937 - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

Julian Borger in Jerusalem writes for the Guardian today that free speech is under threat in Israel. Anti-war proponents, including doctors, being fired for speaking out against slaughter of innocent children in Palestine.

I see you forget to mention that the report itself admits the proposal was unworkable. Or do you just copy and paste the bits that suit your narrative

The Peel Commission published its report in July 1937. The report admitted that the mandate was unworkable because Jewish and Arab objectives in Palestine were incompatible, and it proposed that Palestine be partitioned into three zones: an Arab state, a Jewish state, and a neutral territory containing the holy places. Although the British government initially accepted these proposals, by 1938 it had recognized that such partitioning would be infeasible, and it ultimately rejected the commission’s report.

Yes there was a guardian article on the issue.
The only democracy in the middle east seems to not be as democratic as one assumes. Especially in freedom of speech

This is incredibly offensive to abused children.

You never give up do you?

Abused children who go on to abuse and unfortunately it's not uncommon in some circumstances tend to do so because it's all they've ever known - not out of some sense of payback

Please note prior to the bombing of Gaza 50% of Gazan children were diagnosed with PTSD and were receiving support from aid agencies

Clearly in this last round of revenge olympics Jewish children in Israel and throughout the world will be added to the toll of those already suffering.

Violence is the major cause of mental ill-health - whether in the home or in society

@Parkingt111

I asked 'Why did they refuse the offer of just 500 square miles for the Jews in 1938?' I didn't ask what the British, or the Jews, or anyone else, thought about the proposal. Don't you think it would have been a very minimal gesture of remorse for centuries of imperialist religious supremacism to give the victims their own sovereign state on their native land?

And hand over Masjid al Aqsa in the process? And you wonder why they rejected this proposal

What with PTSD of the upcoming generation within and outside the borders of Israel, the ever-accumulating enemies all around, the firing and harrassment of any Israeli who tries to object to what’s going on, Netanyahu is creating a fantastic legacy for his own “democratic” country.

'It's not uncommon in some circumstances'! I hope there aren't any formerly abused children reading this thread and seeing what some people think of them.

'Violence is the major cause of mental ill-health'? Are you actually serious? This is going to be big news for everyone with mental health issues.

There were many reasons given why the commission was rejected by all sides. As you know it wasn't a simple black and white process and the Palestinians have every right and reason to reject it
I don't see the findings of the peel commission criticising the Palestinians for their refusal to accept this proposal but it seems you think you know better

People with PTSD, trauma, and other mental health problems, are not any more likely to be violent than anyone else, except to themselves (I'm classing personality disorders separately). This is just getting constantly more and more offensive to people suffering from mental health problems.

So they had 'many reasons', and 'every reason' but you can't say what any of them were?

Don't you think it would have been a very minimal gesture of remorse for centuries of imperialist religious supremacism to give the victims their own sovereign state on their native land? Why weren't the Arabs falling over themselves to show that they really were genuinely sorry about the whole dhimmi business? Especially since the Ottomans had only abolished it because the Europeans forced them to when they lost the Crimean war.

Have you ever heard of inter-generational abuse? Sometimes called cycles of abuse
It's real it happens Why are you denying it

Go visit a prison and ask the inmates about their families and upbringing and then tell me violence doesn't beget more violence or self-harm or substance abuse or.........

The quote is from the WHO not something I've made up and their research population wasn't Mumsnetters there's a bigger world out there

It's extraordinary as usual to see the knots people will tie themselves into to fit terrorism into leftist dogma. You'll even throw abused children and the mentally ill to the wolves as necessary.

As I said before
Handing over Masjid al Aqsa to a third party

Where are you getting the information that the Woodhead Commission was going to hand over Jerusalem to the Jewish state? I'm pretty sure everyone knew then, as you said earlier, that all Islamic countries worldwide would have combined to declare World War 3 if that happened.

What proposals did the Arabs come up with to give their former dhimmis, both Christians and Jews, the safety of their own little sovereign states on their native land?

I'm classing personality disorders separately - the DSM and ICD committees will be interested in your own special classification Im sure

Depression in men [mainly young men but not always] assoc with violence

Substance misuse particularly alcohol highly assoc with violence

Various PD also have a high risk of violence

Etc etc

Generally people suffering with mental health problem tend to be the victim of violence not the perpertrator - there are however sub-sets of MH sufferers where the reverse is true

It's not 'offensive' to state the facts

Honey it's not 'leftist dogma' it's scientific research