Ditherers Anonymous - Is there ever a right time?

[confuseddoiordonti]

A continuation from the previous two threads we have filled going round in circles about whether to have a baby, or whether never to have a baby... All insights and new recruits welcome!

(and those of you now with BFP's - don't you go sloping off leaving us for more decisive types!)

Definitions courtesy of Dr Honeypetal Sparklepants.

Dither: vb. def. The act of procrastination and delaying of coming to a decision regarding reproduction due to an attachment to lie-ins, working bowels and cheap holidays in term time.

Ditherer: n. def. One who is in a permanent state of flux regarding whether to procreate or not (see def. of babyometer). On the flick of a coin, may ultimately not reproduce, or bear triplets. Whatever. pl. A confusion of ditherers.

Babyometer: def. Semi-quantitative scale upon which an individuals current extent of dithering (i.e. desire to conceive) is measured, commonly red, amber or green, although reddy-amber, greeny-amber and reddy-ambery-green have been described (see def. Dithering). Caution is required during interpretation as measurement may change hourly.

Sorry, post crossed - or rather sent simultaneously - with hp's. Sinking in with varying degrees of trepidation - think I'm currently more scared than DH!

confused - so sorry to hear that S so poorly I hope you have some good news this week and that the doctors can do something for him. Keep us posted, and brain dump whenever you need to. As for the (lack of) support from your DH, I can only echo LST and say that it's my experience too that blokes often find this sort of emotional support really hard to understand and provide. Maybe you just need to tell your DH right out what you feel, rather than hoping he'll pick up on the vibes that you need support? A lot of men I know, who are very lovely otherwise, have the sensitivity of a lump of concrete...

Hi to Eskarina and to any others I might not have welcomed properly (I keep missing threads by chunks of several hundred at a time!)

Will save the broodiness update for another time

Hi all,
THANK YOU all for the lovely messages of support. I ended up going off-line after my last post last night as DH turned up at the pub. I had texted the RL friend just before asking if he was free and he ended up calling back immediately as DH appeared; this opened up the conversation.

Turns out (and I suppose I could have guessed this) he doesn't know what to say and so has, unwisely, said nothing. He also said he 'doesn't like illness' which was a pretty dumb comment if I am honest. He also said that he doesn't really like S due to the assocations (he has previously said he can see he's a lovely bloke but he just doesn't gel with him.)

I got very (VERY) tearful and, on and off, cross and DH then got cross when I wasn't as supportive with his and his family's anxiety issues.

The long and the short of it is, it has kind of cleared the air to an extent and also that I am going to my friends wedding in a few weeks (staying at S's, everyone there will be the people I know via S.) I suspect he didn't want to go to the wedding in the first place due to S's illness.

LST I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that this, in a weird way, is pushing me back towards S and it's obvious I am thinking of him and everything a lot. The thing is, I wouldn't want to act any differently about it just because DH is there, that would actually feel more sneaky. Also, DH does not have any relationship at all with his ex wife and only has contact with his former girlfriend due to his son so he cannot relate to this situation at all. That doesn't help, obviously.

I hope this comes across right, but I find it comforting to know many of you have been through similar situations. Its easy to feel like you're the only one, even though, sadly, you know you're not.

I'll post this now in case anyone's around. I'll be on-line all night.

Thanks again SO much xxx

Sorry - meant to say I am going to the friends wedding on my own

Confused, that does sound very positive that you had an air-clearing chat, even if DH can't change his attitude perhaps as much as you'd like him to (and perhaps he should, if I'm allowed to say that). I think you're absolutely right to be open about it all with him - far better that way, even if it makes for temporary friction/ tension. But it's also clear as you and others have said that you need other people as well in this situation to give you support, and with whom to talk about S and the situation. Good that this will happen, and perhaps good that it can happen separate from your DH, as long as he knows it's happening.

My DH was good in a sort of general sympathy and affection way about my friend, but I had almost all my significant and sustained conversations about her/my-dealing-with-her-illness with other people (female friends and (my) family, to be honest) - he is pretty good, but doesn't do that sort of chat well. And he was very fond of her too and there were no other issues (as there obviously are here, however minor they may be in the great scheme of things).

May go to bed soon as this is quite late for me these days (you've probably gone anyway by now!) but continued and really feeling for you xx

(Hope you're ok, Suerock - do tell us sometime about your red/green status!)

Am here but am guessing you're now not.

DH has been a lot more affectionate (he is a lot anyway but is now more so) today and I think he gets it, at least more than he did before anyway.

I am ever so sorry for not remembering this, if you have indeed said, but did your friend have cancer too?

I'll post this now as I suspect you've gone to bed.

Will endeavour to be more chipper in the week!

Late entry applicant here.

I'm a double ditherer - can't decide if I want to have a baby OR if I want to talk to DH about the possibility of deciding if WE want a baby. No idea what to think or do.

I used to be sure that I did not want children. No siree. Not Me. I love other people's children. Love playing with children. But having children is Not For Me.

Now, this is the case roughly 95% of the time BUT in the other 5%, I have managed to imagine an idyllic family life with rosy-cheeked children helping me to bake cakes, making pictures to stick on the fridge and playing in the garden on a swing. Sometimes they even bring me flowers that they picked while they were out playing. I even know what they are called.

This is ridiculous for so many reasons:

• We live in a small flat in a major city
• I have yet to see anyone manage the rosy-cheeked, collage making, flower picking lifestyle 100% of the time so I'd be starting out with false hopes
• Deep down, I am actually quite selfish and suspect that before long I would come to resent the fact that the time spent baking cakes/making collages was not spent reading a book (or baking a cake just for me and DH)
• Similarly, I'm worried that I'd get bored very quickly
• DH and I both have time consuming jobs that neither of us would be prepared to give up (and even if we were, we are even less likely to be prepared to accept the associated drop in income)
• These visions only represent 5% of my general outlook so surely they can't actually be that important

On the other hand, other than general motivation (which, admittedly is a major factor) I can't think of any particular reason why we SHOULDN'T have children. We are financially comfortable and stable, have no major health issues, are reasonably young (I'm 28, DH is 36 so we still have time to dither decide) and I am terrified that one day, when it is too late to do anything about it, I will wake up and think "feck! I really wanted children".

So that's my general dithering situation. The secondary dithering about talking to my DH is that when we first met (almost 7 years ago) and when we got married (almost 2 years ago) I was a firm non-ditherer. That means that he formed a relationship with, and later married, me knowing that I didn't want children. I'm not sure now whether he accepted that because he wasn't that bothered, whether he accepted it inspite of wanting children because he wanted to be with me (flattering myself possibly but you never know) or if he jumped at the chance because he doesn't want children either.

He never seems that bothered when we are around children and doesn't even make that much of a fuss about our 4 year-old nephew (his brother's son). Then again sometimes, like this weekend at a family party, I see him watching me playing with children and wonder if I should broach the subject.

This has turned out to be a very long message for what was supposed to be a quick "hello". Looks like I had a lot to get off my chest

Super-quick illicit work post.

FrogLover - oh my goodness, welcome. This is surely where you belong. Its not a scary cult of indecisive people, honest. Ahem.

C, so glad to hear you may have reached DH. I was thinking of you yesterday but wasnt near a computer.

LST, isnt your scan tomorrow...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you. If its twins, may I suggest 'Honey' and 'Petal' as names? Also, I was in town on Saturday and kept a beady eye out for you, just in case

Hopefully back later, but if not, will try to post tomorrow instead of working in my lunch break.....

Froglover I could have written most of your post. Please don't expect any answers here, but, instead like minded ditherers people.

LST - good luck tomorrow! Eeeek! How exciting! Do post as soon as you can!

Am booked to go to London on the 24th and staying at S's house. I shall need vast amounts of Rescue Remedy as suspect I am in for a bit of a shock. I also got a text from the friend (the male one of the couple we are good friends with) saying how sorry he was to hear about S but I need to take care of myself before I can take care of anyone else. He also said that I should put myself / relationship etc first with S 'a very close second' as it'll help me cope with the S situation. Hard to discuss these matters via text but if I felt DH was with me in the first place it would help (feel quite alone in it otherwise.) Saying that, DH is a bit better but still clearly doesn't feel comfortable with any of it so am trying to cope with it in my own way. If you can't rely on yourself, who can you rely on, eh?

Weirdly, the 'pregnancy plight' thread that's on chat of the day is making me slightly green. I say weirdly as the majority of posts are about people pissing themselves.

How odd.

Cripes. Pissing themselves. Where do you go from there, seriously? I saw a support thread for people who have been....physically compromised. Chilling. I wanted to cuddle every one of them and then demand that the NHS fix them.

Actually, partially as a consequence of all that I spent an instructive hour on adoption.uk looking at the process of adopting a child. It's a serious business. The children seem to come with many, many issues and troubles, especially as the adoption process takes so long they spend a long time in care.

C, I really agree with your friend that you have to try to look after yourself and also DH during all of this. I know that's easy to type, but I mean it

Greetings fellow ditherers!
I hope everyone is doing well and not to gutted with the new run of miserable weather.

Today im feeling very green. Went to a wedding on the weekend and when dancing with my friends 3 year old daughter in my arms and realised that my DH and friends where all smiling and watching me laughing and asking him what had changed! At the christmas party we all went to when the same child ran towards me and asked to be picked up I pointed her in someone elses direction! Damm hormones outing me to the public now as well

confuseddoiordonti - Mirroring the hugs and wishes of everyone else on here. Its one of the hardest things is remember to look after you as well: when you care so much its easy to think about them and nothing but them but one day you may do as I did after my dads long tearm illness and realise I was 3 stone lighter, full on teenage spots and very bad hair!! All jokes aside look after you and you will be in a better 'place' to look out for him x

Hello all

Could someone explain the red and green code that comes up in some posts please? I'm guessing that it refers to current inclination to (possibly maybe think about thinking about) ttc?

Ta x

Ah, ok, forget that last message. I've just re-read the OP properly and had my own question answered.
[Esk runs off red-faced]

Evening all,

Confused, late hugs from me. Sounds like S's cancer has got quite aggressive. Your friend is right, you do need to make sure you look after yourself as much as possible, cos it will be tough when you go to see S later this month.

I also think LST is right and you pobably need to be looking for support from mutual friends and you DH is not capable of providing the support that you need. Blokes are, as a general rule, rubbish at coping with illness and its associated emotional fallout, and your DH had additional complexities to cope with. The analogy LST drew with the widower / second wife situation is a pertinent one. Your DH isn't a part of your relationship with S, in fact he's probably quite jealous of you and possibly resents your continued closeness with S. He's in the incredibly awkward position of resenting a dying man. That's not going to make him feel that great. I think it will probably be best if you try not to expect much in the way of support from your DH. This is a situation he can't really empathise with (and consequently he is more worried about issues that are directly affecting him - i.e finace, moving etc). Although, having said all that, I do think he needs to try a little harder to understand and to support you, regardless of his feelings (or lack of them) in relation to S. So am glad to hear he's being affectionate and making a bit of an effort.

LST good luck with the scan tomorrow. Make sure you update us as soon as you can. I can't wait to hear if you've got both a honey and a petal in there. Is your DH going with you tomorrow? My DH got much more interested after seeing a picture of the baby - I think it made it all a bit more real.

Froglover welcome aboard. Tey sound like classic dithering symptoms. Some of us have managed to move on (I am now 18 weeks pregnant - no going back for me), but there are plenty of stalwart ditherers who can very much relate to what you are feeling. What you said about not being able to "think of any particular reason why we SHOULDN'T have children" rang bells with me. Not hving a really good reason not to was one of the reasons why we started TTC.

Right, bedtime for me now. Waves all round to everyone I've missed (Suerock we're waiting for the broodiness update!). All is well in the YTD household. I have deveoped a proper little bump in the past week and made my debut in maternity clothes this weekend. I am starting to look pregnant rather than just fat!

Hi everyone and thank you, once again, for your support. I am looking after myself (apart from drinking too much) really but also feel as if there is a limit to what I can do when I am 130 miles away (and utterly broke.) YTD you have come up with another very good way of putting things, DH is in the incredibly awkward postion of resenting a dying man.

I know I keep saying this, but everyone has been such a support over this, they really have. I think I am too wrapped up in things to see things properly and, instead, have a whilpool of emotions going round (mostly shit emotions too) which certainly ain't helping!

I have enough friends to help me through this and really need to call on them rather than DH I think. My mum is, as well as being very upset in her own right, being a big source of support which also helps a lot.

LST I can't wait to her if there is a Honey, a Petal or a Honey AND Petal

So, YTD, how big's your bump? My stomach is far from flat in the first place so it would take me ages to show (or three mins post testing as I would no longer be holding it in!) - is it actually, eek, bump shaped?!

LQ how's your middle for bumps too? Getting there or not?

YTD is so wise. And it's too cute that there is a bump! An actual bump on the thread!

I'd better scarper as I have a towel around my head and hair that needs drying before bed.

Night all.

Night!

OMG. I have always thought it a little strange (and to be honest also rashly optimistic with a possibility of future heartbreak) that people on other threads have named their embryos from day 1 of IVF transfer, but now mine (if there are two) have names that I can't possibly resist! (It's ok, don't worry, it won't lead to heartbreak as it will all be known one way or another - at least for the time being - tomorrow.) I suspect a future child (or two) may wonder why they have a certain nickname in years to come...

I wasn't in the town centre on Saturday, hp, though not a million miles away!

YTD you are indeed wise, that was exactly what I wanted to say (which is obviously the definition of wise - in my book, at least!). I'm glad we're helping, confused, and that you're looking after yourself and have so much RL support too.

Bumps! How exciting. I was convinced I was already showing, and therefore definitely having twins, but I think it may just be fat (or water retention, if I'm being generous to myself...). Anyway, all will be revealed tomorrow - eek indeed! I'll of course post as soon as I possibly can.

I have to say, Froglover, that you don't sound much like you want a child. No one should feel they ought to have one just because there is no reason not to. (I'm sure if we put our heads together we could think of a few reasons not to for you, just say the word!) There is still, even in this day and age, a lot of pressure to have children, and I know some very happy and fulfilled women without them. Having said that, I could have written a post more or less like yours not that long ago, and look at me, up the duff (well, hopefully). I think I've always found children fascinating - but still worry that that's more in the abstract than the concrete, as it were. And don't know how long that will sustain me in endless games of peekaboo and 3am wailing sessions. But I think I'm excited enough by some aspects of the experience (in prospect, at least) to risk taking the plunge. (Just as well!) Would it be impossible to broach the subject with your DH in a fairly casual sort of way? Communicating about these things always seems like a good idea, even if you're both dithering, or both fairly red (i.e. against). Especially if you don't have overriding feelings either way (i.e. won't be devastated with his taking up either position).

Anyway, I am hardly one to be giving advice, simultaneously adopting two (at least) fairly contradictory positions! Good luck with whatever you decide to do (or not do).

Right, off to bed. Talk to you all tomorrow!

Confused echoing what YTD said, my friend's partner was exactly the same if not much much worse when her v good friend/ex DP was dying. He found it incredibly challenging and got very very jealous.
I was also wondering (and not knowing your DH, tell me I'm way off obviously) whether he's one of those people who, when confronted with something massive that he can't do anything about (eg S's illness) displaces all his energy into things he can have influence over, eg tax return, finances etc, as a way of coping? I know a couple of people who function like that.

I am set on green today, I think because my dad was involved in a really hair-raising accident last night (he is fine but very narrow escape) and it's left me going 'Quick! Quick! Breed! Breed! Have grandchildren for them before it's too late!'

Saying that, Froglover, all your concerns resonate with me.

Morning all,

looks like I'm going to be permanently out of sync with you all on here as I tend to post during the day time but it is lovely to come online in the morning and see so many posts. I'm aware that I won't find specific answers on here but just knowing that other people feel the same way is a big help.

HP thanks for the welcome and for creating this thread. My back is playing up at the minute so if you don't mind, I've brought my own beanbag instead of the cushions

YTD congratulations on your pregnancy. I'm glad to hear that there can be an end to the dithering.

confused I'm so sorry to read about the hard time that you are going through. That really can't be making this subject any easier for you.

LST I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you and sending out sticky vibes.
I know what you mean about the pressure that women are under to have children. I live in France where the pressure is even higher. People here (especially my French MIL) just cannot imagine that a woman of my age does not want children. DH wants to tell her that we have been trying and it just hasn't worked out but I hate the idea of them feeling sorry for us instead of just accepting a (possibly) rational decision made by two adults.
I think that my feelings are largely influenced by the fact that my role models whrn growing up were my aunt and uncle who never had children. Thanks to them, I know that it is possible to have a rich, fulfilling, successful life without children.

Thanks again to all of you for your warm welcomes. Hope you have a great day and I'll check in later.

Morning all,
Lovely to log on so early and see lots of new posts.

Quodlibet I am now thinking about your theory, about my DH throwing himself into things he can control... To be honest, I am not entirely sure but perhaps you're onto something there. My mum said she thinks it's 'because he can't compete' with S's illness but then she also thinks his 'anxiety issues' are largely in his head and he makes himself worse. He saw a shrink about it a few years ago and the shrink said it was connected to his mother (she is RIDICULOUS when it comes to worrying over bugger all).

Interesting that your friend whose ex partner was dying found herself in a similar situation. My DH is not a jealous person at all normally, but my sobbing etc over this has really done it for him. Thing is, I am not going to try and hem it in (and I just want to say, I am not crying constantly!) as that would actually feel as if I was up to no good.

I hope that makes sense!

S is having another endoscopy today. The one he had yesterday didn't find anything and then his heart rate went up very high so they stopped. We shall see what happens today...

LST all the luck in the world! I am really excited about hearing how it went!

FrogLover I too know plenty (well, it used to be plenty) of couples with no kids and they were also the one's with the tidyiest houses, most spare cash, exciting lifestyles and so on. I can actually come up with loads of reasons not to have a family but I have a ticking at the back of my mind that makes me wonder if I'm missing out on something that I'll later regret.

Hi folks,

All went well with the scan - though only one in there (sorry, hp, they won't be namesakes!). But looked good and heart beating away - quite exciting! Can't tell much yet, of course, but the right size etc. Had a momentary pang for a guilt free CS twins, but didn't last long! Even DH a bit excited, and couldn't wait to tell his mum, which was sweet and unexpected. So progress all round!

OK, will write properly soon, but meant to be shopping for dinner (the deal being DH will cook it!).

Yayyyyyy! That's really great, LST, fantastic news. Congratulations! And lovely that DH is excited - maybe actually staring at the little thing has affected him, after all. And I for one am glad there is just the one in there, as I think for one of us to have twins would be the ultimate mocking of us by The Universe

Look, all I'm saying is don't rule out the name Honey Petal Sparkle Stubbs-Tears, although move quickly as I believe Jools Oliver is pregnant again....

Hurray! That's wonderful news, and also possibly a bit of a relief that it's one...?

I was checking on and off all day and then started to worry (must be my MIL's influence dragging me over to the Dark Side) so didn't want to tempt fate and nosily demand some info from LST!

It's almost as brilliant that your DH is getting a bit excited too!

Cripes, now we know all is well I am aware of how relieved I am (so god knows how you are!)

Honey Petal Sparkle PANTS Stubbs Tears surely...? Just beauuuutiful, that is

Can't wait to hear more!