30s TTC - The BESH little gin palace in mumsnet

[idealcamel]

The bar is open and the ticking clock has been muffled for the duration...Come on in!

As an ex-hunt sab, I believe this is my cue to put my two-penneth forth...

The thing about the 'violent extremists' is a trope that hunt supporters use to try and support their sickness cruelty. I sabbed loads of different hunts and never saw any violent extremism - apart from the violence and quite terrifying hatred, prejudice and sense of entitlement flooding from the hunters (had one toff ask his mate to hold me down whilst he tried to stamp on my arm to break it - luckily a copper stopped him). I am a pacifist, as are most sabs. There are violent extremists, but that's as daft as saying that because a small minority of Tories are affiliated with far-right interests, that makes the whole Conservative party and all their voters as bad as Hitler. And as regards the more extreme sabs, I'd still say that their actions are more justifiable than getting your kicks from torturing and killing animals. Saying that hunting is the best way to cull is absolute bullshit and you know it; even without the ethical questions, how can all that time, money and effort spent on killing a single creature be efficient or even sensible?!

Has anyone seen the end of a hunt or seen a vid of one? The chosen prey will nearly always be pregnant, especially in deer hunting, and the dogs are egged on to rip the animal's belly open whilst it is still alive and to attack and devour the live foetuses, while the blood of the dying/dead animal is often rubbed on the faces of children or newcomers. All of this is watched and enjoyed by braying freaks. This is the bit that is kept from the general public so that too many people 'don't get what the fuss' is'. It would turn the stomach of any right-minded person. And hunts do fuck up the wildlife and nature in which they rampage through - I'd like to know how anything else could be inevitable. And I don't even agree than foxes need to be culled - when certain animals aren't 'useful' to humans (ie we can't eat them or use them live in industry or leisure), we call them 'vermin' and say it's okay to kill them. Bollocks. They have as much right to live, breed and get food for their young as we do; they're not the ones destroying the planet, after all.

Even if you take away the fact that the prolonged torture and hideous and unnecessary killing of an innocent creature for a small number of privileged individuals' enjoyment is utterly, indefensibly WRONG, immoral and twisted, there still remains the very important and significant question of what does it imply for the rest of society that some people think this activity is harmless, fun and should be their right? If you can enjoy and justify such vileness and cruelty to inferior living things, what is your attitude to your fellow man going to be? At best, it says you are a shallow and immature individual who is unwilling or incapable of thinking beyond your own selfish interest and at worst it says you are scum a Sociopath.

By you, I am talking pejoratively, not meaning Carrots... although I am disappointed in your naivity and blinkeredness on this matter.

And I am not a loony animals rights menkal, I'm not even a veggie (tho' I used to be a vegan). It's just that it's so obviously wrong, I don't even understand why people can't get that, or perceive the aforementioned implications.

BTW, don't even get me started on vivisection or wearing fur. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry [incredible hulk emoticon]

Polemic over. TTC in yer 30s, eh? Bag 'o' shite.

Ah Scorpette that is exactly what I would have written if I had the patience (and wasn't so stoopid)

Cheers, Bessie. Can anyone tell my parents brought us up to discuss and argue politics and beliefs, etc.?

Applauds Brilliantly put Scorp

Not feeling up to playing today, BESHies - see you maybe tomorrow.

pinches and twists to you all...

Hawaiian - you ok? What's up?

We heart you, Cuntshine. Stay shiny

Sob! Have I scared everyone off with my ramblings (again)? Come back!

I'm here, but only half heartedly as possibly in Coventry due to shameful crush admissions.

For the record, DS wasn't named after the President and he doesn't eat Quavers anywhere.

A likely story! Moved onto froot shoots and Gregg's sausage rolls, has he

I'm here, kind of... I am watching Strictly from Saturday. Trying to get over the horror of Harpers Island with something light and fluffy.

Here no more... off to bed.

Cuntshine hope you are ok.

I thought I would get the response I did, which is completely understandable but is upsetting.

Just for the record:

1. There is no doubt that hunting (and incidentally I'm specifically and only talking about fox hunting) creates extreme violence on both sides. I didn't say that the hunt followers were never aggressive, which they clearly are, and such violence is utterly and completely intolerable. Sadly, much violence is done to the horses by the (violent) sabs which is beyond understanding.

2. I have never followed a hunt on horseback and don't plan to, but don't object to it for well thought through and moral reasons.

3. I fully support anyone's right to protest against hunting but just ask that those who do protest understand what they are protesting against. The fox being ripped apart is a sentimental red herring and no different to carving a chicken or butchering a cow. That doesn't make it nice, or attractive, or fun, or pretty. The fox is killed instantly by the first dog which gets to it so then what happens to it afterwards, from the fox's perspective, is irrelevant and it's important that it's not brought in as part of the "cruelty" argument. The outdated and hideous practise of smearing the blood is outrageous and disrespectful but it is again completely separate to the facts of whether hunting a fox with hounds is the best way of controlling the fox when it's a pest.

4. I believe that IF and WHEN the fox needs controlling, hunting with hounds is the kindest and cleanest way (this is a critical part of the argument and if it's proven to me that shooting or poisoning is safer and kinder I would say that that should be the only way of controlling them). I DO NOT in ANY way condone hunting with hounds (of any animal) solely for sport. That is cruelty beyond measure. However, I do not see a problem with people following the hounds on horseback (and enjoying it) PROVIDED that the ONLY reason the hunt is in progress in the first place is for pest control.

5. I find it frustrating that many people who are against fox hunting are not as passionate about the other terrible things which are going on in the world. For instance, I'm that it's socially unnacceptable to say that (given the above important provisos) I believe (having thought it through for many years, living on a farm and evaluating the evidence as I interpret it) that fox hunting should not have been banned yet it's still socially completely acceptable to eat chicken which has been caged all its short life, pig which has been kept on slats or caged, despite their being as intelligent as dogs, and to buy clothes made by slave labour in third world countries. It's ok to buy soap and cosmetics which have been tested on animals, or which uses palm oil grown where rainforest used to stand. It's ok to use sanitary products and nappies which use chemicals which poison our land and water, out raw sewage into the ground and sit in landfill producing CO2. None of these things make sense to me. I won't even buy chicken or pork based products for my dog, at least until they produce free range versions. I am the most animal-friendly and ethical person you could come across and I honestly believe that my feelings on fox hunting are properly thought through and come from a clear understanding of the facts. I DON'T accept that it's ok to do a lot of what the hunt do and I really wish that they would understand that the blood smearing and so on simply causes (quite rightly) revulsion and disgust and disguises the original reason for doing the job in the first place.

I hope that this clarifies things. For some reason that I've never figured out I get terribly upset about this. In fact, I couldn't sleep properly last night thinking about it. I think it's because the moment you pop your head above the parapet and say that you have a well-thought-through opinion (I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying I've thought it through) about fox hunting, despite all the evils in the world that you fight hard to overcome, you are suddenly perceived as the devil incarnate.

I'm really not. I promise.

Thank you carrots, you have articulated that so more beautifully than I could have even attempted!

Anyway, I am totally aware that I again hijacked the thread on a totally off-topic topic. I'm really sorry (again).

I know it's totally inappropriate to bring it up here. I am not sure why I did, especially as to actually admit to it simply causes people to think I'm a Bad Person. Are there any other beliefs that one can have that can create such anger and fury against one?

Perhaps it's because to say that I am not against it automatically puts me with the blood smearing, tally-ho, fox-tail-waving fraternity, which I am not.

But I feel so passionately that there are so many things in the world that cause extreme distress and suffering to animals and people, and yet which are ignored by most, and if the anger directed at fox hunting was instead directed at, say, factory farming, maybe we could really stop some terrible things happening.

Enough from me. I'm just terribly upset and have been since reading the Lush website and I'm afraid that the emotion is coming out here - hence the off topicness. I apologise.

Cxx

On another note, I'm seeing "our" wall messages on my FB news feed although not via other FB feeds linked to me (meaning I think that it's just my personal one I'm seeing them on).

Is this ok? I mean, are my security settings ok?

A good response, Carrots. Of course, I do think there are many, many things that are far more important and urgent issues to worry about and that should be banned or changed and definitely agree with your opinions on all those issues you raised. People who are anti-hunting are generally passionate about a wide range of issues, particularly eco ones. You have quite clearly thought through the issue of fox hunting and are entitled to your own opinion. As am I, which is also a very well- and -long thought through opinion, also based on evidential personal experience.

However, there is one point above that you are utterly wrong about: "the blood smearing and so on simply causes (quite rightly) revulsion and disgust and disguises the original reason for doing the job in the first place".

Erm, the original reason for hunting was for a bunch of toff to enjoy riding with friends, the thrill of the chase... and get off on animal cruelty, which used to be acceptable in the past, when people were more ignorant and believed religious crap like 'man hath dominion over lesser creatures', etc. Their attitude towards animals was merely an extension of their attitude towards other humans lower down in society than them; they were expendable things that existed to serve them or provide amusement, be that hunting, raping maids (obviously far, far worse), etc.

And in recent times (seeing as it is now banned), hunting has not been done for pest control purposes, no matter what you have been led to believe. People are told it is for that reason, but as I keep repeating, it's bullshit to say it's pest control when it's only one animal you're disposing of! And I disagree that it's acceptable to follow the hunt just for riding purposes if you're not involved in the kill, because doing so is just supporting and condoning animal cruelty. And naive.

As I said, I don't agree with culling anyway - who the fuck are we to decide that there's 'too many' of a certain animal, when things we do are making other animals extinct! It's so hypocritical and egotistical. But I stand by my earlier point: the idea of the best way of animal population control is for loads of humans and dogs to hunt one single fox or deer is absolute nonsense - logistically, this makes not a drop of sense - and people who keep pushing that idea are either knowingly lying to defend their own interests or misguided. I would put you in the latter category. The animal-ripping and blood-smearing are most definitely NOT irrelevant to the hunting issue, because they prove the absolute lie that hunting is only about culling; it proves that it is all about the thrill of witnessing the pain of something inferior to you and that the people who pursue this pastime are sick fuckers who need counselling to learn a proper sense of empathy and balanced level of entitlement (as regards their desires). Sorry, but that is my personal opinion about people who enjoy the bloodier aspects of hunting; I think they are worryingly abnormal. You can be low-level sociopathic or even psychopathic and not be a massive dangerous loon or killer, and I do put those certain hunt types into this category

I don't think you are the devil incarnate, and still think you are ace - I just utterly disagree with you on this issue and I know that the facts (the history, the fact that hunting just one animal is not a logically or economically justifiable form of control, etc., etc.) which I am stating cannot prove anything other than my stance on the issue.

I too worry about sticking my head above the parapet on this issue, because I know there are a lot of horsey ladies here and that can often mean people who are pro-hunting or ambivalent and I don't want us all to fall out over such an issue when we have so much more in common and so much we can give to each other positively. But I am passionate about this and even when I remove my emotions from the matter, I still think I'm logically and factually correct. But then again, I am a Scorpio and we are always right. Especially me

Wanna come on a date with me to see 'The Fantastic Mr Fox?'

Anyway, am happy today - D14 of cycle and have a temp dip and a sticky gusset - woohoo!

Morning all. Carrots I think you put your point across really well, as did Scorps.

One thing I'd like to ask is when the hunt goes out with the purpose of culling foxes, how many foxes do they cull? What I'm getting at I suppose is, is hunting with hounds really that effective at controlling the population? I've never been on a hunt or followed - the closest I've got is when they come through our village and I happen to be looking out of the window, so forgive my ignorance.

Sorry for continuing the off topic.

At the risk of sounding boring - am not toally sure this thread is the right place for a topic as polarising as hunting... not particularly enjoying seeing it here

All I will say is that - as with politics - other's opinions on this matter do not affect my ability to like them and want to talk about gin / babyfail etc.

I'd like to add that even if hunting culled loads of animals in one go, I'd still be against it, as it involves prolonged torment and a very cruel death. If we have to cull, we should do it as quickly, cleanly and humanely as possible. Surely no-one could say that the hunting method is the most humane?!

(PS as a Socialist, also disagree with hunting because of the aspects of privilege and superiority that it represents, so will never be persuaded away from my stance)

Also sorry to continue the chat

carrots Its fine - i logged in as someone else and checked that we can't be seen even though is on our news feed - so don't worry!

scorps that is the whole point of the hunting debate - the people who are passionate on each side will never be persuaded away from their stances

so this month I have decided to ignore fertility friend and not count dates - suspect this will be as fruitless as every other month, but may as well try...

and some other fucker has just pasted baybee pictures on facearse and I am irrationally cross with them

iggy If you hover your mouse to the right of their post on your feed you get the opportunity to "ignore" their inane postings about shite. n.b., this may well come back to haunt you when you make some quip only to find that the friend you put on ignore for updating their status 15 times a day is actually now in a wheelchair.

Scorpette You were born in to a family far richer, more privileged and "superior" than mine EVER were. I do rather feel you've got a bit of a ivory tower thing going on there.