IVFers thread

[TheMNPeacekeepingForce]

Anyone fancy starting an ongoing thread for those who are having IVF/ are planning to try again via IVF soon?

Ds was conceived via IVF - he's now 2.6 and we're stepping back on the scary rollercoaster ride with a FET - I started taking the drugs yesterday!

Hello everyone,

Have just caught up with this thread and am shocked to see that it?s doom and gloom all round so far. What a shame, and how damn unfair. I am thinking of you all. xxxx

Nothing much has happened since I was last on, although I now have an appointment to see the consultant next Wednesday. I had hoped to go ahead with the first cycle in March, but my period came earlier than expected this month, so I now think I may be too far on and things will get delayed to April. But even if I am not, my husband is away on business shortly before Easter, so that may scupper things anyway. I do hope we can go ahead in March though ? I?m starting to feel nervous already.

I was shocked to read what it is costing you all. I live in Germany where (aged under 40) you get three attempts, each subsidised to the tune of 50%. Most costs are fixed by statute, so we already know that the procedure itself will cost us ca. GBP 400 (ancillary stuff like blood work is paid for in full by the health insurer). The only unknown is the drugs, for which we have been told to expect to pay between GBP 300 and GBP 700 depending on how I respond.

Having said this, whilst it?s less expensive here, German reproductive laws contain a sting in the tail: Basically, about 24 hours after the eggs have been mixed with the sperm they are examined to see how many show initial signs of fertilisation, and you then have to decide how many you wish to allow to develop further. The decision is subject to two considerations: 1) no more than three eggs can be allowed to develop further; 2) any eggs that do continue to develop normally must be transferred back.

You therefore face a quandary:

a) do you allow the maximum of three to continue to develop on the basis that you may well still ?lose? some before transfer (but thereby also accept the fact that if all three do continue to develop you will have to have them all transferred back with the resulting (albeit small) risk of a multiple pregnancy)?

or

b) do you limit the number you allow to develop further (to say one or two) (but thereby accept the risk that you might "lose" them both before transfer and end up with nothing?)

Answers on a postcard, please.

RedQueen What a horrible decision to make

Well the appointment yesterday went well - It was a meet and greet/presentation and there were about 15 couples there.

The head of the department gave a presentation about the procedure of IVF and then an embryologist talked us through what she does and showed us lots of slides, which I found fascinating! Then finally the nurse talked us through the admin side of it all and told us about things like the counselling and support group. They said that the next thing we had to do was ring today and they?d give us a date for the initial physical tests (another sperm test for DH and another scan and a trial embryo transfer for me) then we have to have a consultation with both of us there and we?re away. The initial tests are next week for DH and the week after for me and the consultation is after Easter, it's all happeneing so quickly!!

My first impressions of both the clinic and the staff (in person and on the phone) was very positive. I am feeling really good about all of this

Can I ask how you all feel about your fertilised eggs? I know this is one of those things you're probably not meant to ask - so ignore me if you like - but do you think of each fertilised egg/embryo as a potential child? I think I would/do and I am trying to come to terms with the fact that we might have more fertilised eggs than we need first time round. I know not all are upto the right standard and wouldn't have survived anyway and we'd like to freeze any that are suitable, but if we get pg on first go I don't think I could deliberately let the frozen ones 'thaw' without giving them a chance but equally DH doesn't want more than 2 children. If (theoretically) we got pg with twins on first go he wouldn't want to have any more but I'd want to give the frozen ones a chance. I'd feel a sense of 'responsibility' for creating them IYKWIM. It's a really hard thing to get my head round and apologies if I've not made it very clear and I hope I haven't overstepped the mark either

nomore....it's something that we thought about and a few of my Christian friends had very strong opinions on it.
I was actually pleased (after the initial disappointment) that I only had two eggs because a decision was taken out of our hands.

If we had had enough good quality eggs we would have definitely frozen them. You are never sure how you will feel in the future and if you 'lost' a twin or DH changed his mind....how would you feel about not freezing? Does that make sense?

I was most worried about having 5 good eggs because we were only allowed to freeze a minimum of 4...so would we freeze 4 and put one back in......or put 2 back in and have the others destroyed (something I found very difficult to come to terms with as I felt it was destroying chances). But, like I say...all that worry and decision ended up being taken out of our hands anyway.

Hope at least some of that waffle makes sense!!!

OAP....I used to often torture myself by looking on the June 2005 postnatal thread to see where I should be with my DS....stupid but sometimes I just couldn't help it.
I'm sorry that you saw that news on FF.....it just adds to the frustartion and unfairness doesn't it?
X

SS....so glad it's not eptopic. At least that is one less thing for you to play over in your mind. I hope that you are feeling a bit more normal soon.
X

Sticki..... Really sorry to hear your news too.
X

I've been lurking
NMM I always think of each embryo as a potential baby, right or wrong. MY problem at the moment is that the frozen embryos in my mind are potential siblings for dd. They where all conceived/fertilised at the same time dd came from the same batch.Not sure if that helpsYes I agree that we too have to give the Frozen embryos a chance.I think each person has to do & think in a way which is right for them. I also never ask to look at the embryos on the screen before they are transfered & do not ask for a picture. We looked at & had a picture of our first embryos to difficult to deal with for me when treatment fails
sticky so for you.be good to you & give dd/dh lots of cuddles. what clinic have you been with so far if you dont mind me asking?
coggy glad you are going for a follow up meeting.you are very brave to try again.
soosy both consultants at Create are fab especially Geeta Nargund. The staff are wonderful too.I am almost sure we wouldnt have dd if we had not found her.she very generous with her time(even though we are paying)The EC & ET are done at Prof Crafts LGFC.When I found out I was pregnant with dd, she asked me to come for a scan one sunday as I had cramps & bleeding(didnt charge us) & gave me the biggest hug when we saw the little yolk & heartbeat.When she met dd for the first time last november I had to hold back the tears. As she just touch her little cheek smiled & said she was beautiful. How amazing it must be to give ladies like us all on this thread such a special gift. FGS I am blinking crying now
Redqueen what a difficuly decision to make, sorry I cant offer advice.good lick in what you decide.

right I am off to wipe the snot bubbles from my nose & the tears streaming down my face. The bloody hormones!

I'
SS big{{hug}}} what a time of it you are having.

OAP sorry you seen the news on the fertility friends thread.try not to torture yourself, I know its easier said than done.{{hugs}}

Sticki, nice to hear from you sorry about your news, B*dy horrible. We are still trying to move have to sell our house first, which is proving quite difficult as I know it is over valued and it was my DH who chose the agent and I did warn him and I am worried we are not going to sell it and frighten people away. So am a bit with DH but more with agent who overvalued it as he is now trying to back off from the valuation, and I already see him sowing the seeds for a price reduction. V cross and worried me as we are now looking at schools in windsor and I sort of want DS to start in Sept. Sorry a bit of a rant, but I think a cause of some of my stress I fear.

Red Queen Horrible decision to have to make, I would probably go for the first option, but how mean. I presume that means you cannot freeze embryos? Or am I getting it all wrong.

SS Sorry to hear you had a night in hospital, glad it's not an ectopic. Hope you try again soon.

NMM I agree about the embryos, at my clinic you can donate your embryos to couples who may not be able to produce any themselves. I think if I was lucky enough for everything to go perfectly right and i had another child and left over embryos I would donate them to someone else. I did say that if I got pg before i was 35 I would do a cycle purely for egg donation, but sadly that hasn't been possible.

NHM thanks for the info, Prof Craft used to be a client of mine, BC in my working life. I hadn't thought of going to his clinic, i don't know why not but there you go.

OAP I hope you are hanging in there, after this failed cycle I got soo Drunk with a friend and {whispers} smoked cigarettes, which I haven't done in a v long time about 11years to be precise. It was weird I just needed a bender.

S x

Busy busy thread!Thank you all for the sympathy - silly to get upset really, but it can be difficult at times as we all know to keep that brave face on. In reality I am happy for others to be pregnant, I don't want their babies, I want my own!

SS - so sorry you had to go to hospital. Are your levels coming down now - is anyone checking this for you?

RedQueen - the costs are so much lower in Germany, almost can't believe it. Re the choice, I think I would go for 1st option, easy decision for me though as my embryo quality isn't great.

NMM - frozen embies is a difficult one. I think you have to give them a chance....having had so much difficulty having children I could never turn down the chance of another (or even triplets in Germany!)

Soosy - I'm with you on the so called alternative methods to aid conception - I realise that most reflexologist and acupuncturist chairs are filled with desperate women in their 30s and 40s, but I think it can help, even if it just calms you down for an hour. My reflexologist is lovely, and I used to go to her a lot, but stopped after DD born. She did say last week that anecdotally, she found that people who have had failed IVF cycles, then reflexology, have had successful cycles next time around. Given that reflexology works by rebalancing hormones etc, you can't have it during treatment or in the first trimester, but I do think it helps to sort you out beforehand.

Hope everyone else is as well as they can be

Hi, hope everyone is as well as they can be. I?m having one of those horrible days of feeling unfairly done by and as though the situation is hopeless. It's unreasonable and selfish of me though when I already have one DD.

NMM: Yes, that?s a terribly difficult issue isn?t it, but I am glad you have raised it as I have been wondering too. My gut reaction is not to see each of my fertilised eggs as a potential child. I am not sure why I feel this, but it is possibly because I am thought to produce poor quality eggs which, even if they initially fertilise, simply don?t have the necessary where-with-all to stay the course in the long-term. I suppose I therefore see the chances of a frozen egg ever really coming to anything as being pretty remote, which sort of takes the heat out of the equation. Don?t quote me on this though ? I?m an IVF novice and may well feel entirely differently in a couple of weeks? time! I don?t think that I am going to go the frosties route in any case though. At 39 I think my chances may be better with fresh eggs each time.

Soosy: Yes, you can freeze eggs here, but only up to 24 hours after fertilisation and not at the time of transfer.

Thanks to everyone for their comments re: my post above. Assuming I am blessed with a choice, I will go for option 1). Even if I am lucky enough to have three eggs in the first place, I see the chances of all three not only going on to develop enough to transfer but then also implanting as very remote, so I reckon the risk is worth it (must check with husband beforehand though!).

Hi Red Queen Nice to hear from you, I think even if you produce masses of eggs the only way you can get the best chance of getting pg is to let them all develop. There has been quite a lot of new research about D5 Blastocyst Transfers giving a much better success rate, purely because of the survival of the fittest. It seems to me that each country tries to apply a one size fits all policy, which in the real world doesn't work. Like here they are pushing for one embryo transfers but won't pay for more than one cycle. I suppose in Germany if you were 25 and had fertility issues then the decisions aren't so difficult to make. It seems all a bit skewed towards youth really, perhaps it is subversive plan by governments to have children younger! I find it all depressing that any person can have a baby, unless of course you have fertility problems and then well it is up to committees and government what kind family you are allowed.

Sorry about the rant, when are you hoping to start Red Queen, I think I am going to have an FET in April.

OAP am trying to listen to my hypnotherapy CD but this week has been a nightmare have spent my life chasing Estate Agents and washing Machine repair men, keeping out of the house for more estate agents. I really need a quiet week I am tired!

SS hope you are feeling a bit better and busystuffing your face with chocolatelosing weight.

S x

Hello everyone, hope that today's sunshine is helping to lift spirits, spring seems to have appeared on the South Coast and I'm having a spring clean. Tomorrow I go to the clinic to get my drugs and on Friday I will start injecting ready for, hopefully, EC on April 8th. fingers xxxx

It's a funny thing about embryos, with my first IVF pregnacy we saw the little prawn and it's heartbeat on the screen and it didn't survive and I can still see that picture so so clearly in my mind. The FET transfer we just did was with embryo's frozen from that batch (3) and we also had 4 frozen from the batch that produced dd. Until I did the FET and it failed I absolutely saw the embryo's as babies. Now, I'm a bit more like TRQ, the reality check of a failed cycle has made me realise that the chances of these embryo's becoming real living babies is quite small and we're gearing up to fresh and I'm thinking that we won't freeze any (presuming that there are some of good enough quality etc). Meanwhile, I do still feel a responsibility to the 4 remaining frosties and do intend to go for a final FET transfer to give them the chance of life after we have either had a successful or three unsuccessful fresh cycles. They will be my full stop on treatment.

Lots of best wishes to everyone.

Bambilocket, You have 4 frosties and you are going for a fresh cycle. Is there any reason why you are going with fresh before you have tried with the remaining embryos? I have two fresh cycles left (two lots of sperm left) and four embryos but we are doing the frozen ones first. Good Luck for Friday

I agree about spring in the air, even if the wind is quite chilly, there is the scent of optimism. My Dad came to see us this afternoon and bought me supper from fortnum's to have when DS had gone to bed, I am really looking forward to it, and he bought a really nice half bottle of red.....

I hope everyone else is ok and enjoying life for a bit, I miss you!

S x

soosy your Dad sounds wonderful - enjoy your dinner and wine

Evening all. Hope everyone is well. I see from Bambilocket's post that there is some good weather in the UK. Enjoy it on my behalf - we are presently suffering the tail end of Hurricane Emma.

Soosy: No need to apologise for the rant. Yes, it?s so unfair that something which should be intensely private becomes a matter of public policy ? here in Germany you even have to be married to be entitled to IVF!

As regards your question, I am still not quite sure when I will be starting. I am seeing the consultant this Wednesday, when a decision will be taken as to whether to use the short or long protocol.

If they suggest the short protocol then I don?t see any reason why I shouldn?t start with my next cycle (from ca. 14 March). However, the clinic itself may say no to that as, given that I generally ovulate on day 11, it would likely result in a need for EC/ET over the Easter weekend.

If they decide on the long protocol, it then depends on how long down-regulation and re-stimulation are likely to take. If down-regulation doesn?t much alter when my period starts and re-stimulation isn?t likely to take more than say ca. 14 days, then it could be all systems go immediately. However, if down-regulation is likely to delay my period, we may again have to leave things for another month as my husband (contrary to instructions!) is away on business in early April and may not be around to provide the necessary.

It?s such a logistical nightmare. I yearn for the days when I equated getting pregnant with stopping using contraception!

But there's no point whining, so Good Luck to you, Bambilocket and anyone else who I may have missed and who is just starting out on a new attempt. Fingers crossed for us all!

Hi everyone - glad to find this thread! Sorry I haven't read it all yet but can I tag along...? Haven't started IVF yet but we're about to [gulp]

Hi All
Just wanted let you know that we had our FET today, 3 defrosted, the best 2 out of the 3 transfered.We still have 2 little frosties storage Found the whole process very emotional My uterus is tilted which never makes it straight forward. Anyway bring on the 2ww. Thinking of you all.x.x.x

Hello JaneHH, I just joined this thread last week.

EHM - good LUCK! ttww is so damned hard but fingers crossed and it'll followed by another wait of around 36 weeks!

I cannot believe you have to be married to do IVF in Germany - that cannot be true can it? Is this not a European country in the 21st century? I thought it was odd when you said that they will insist on a 3 embryo transfer if 3 embryo's survive, that's seriously out of date here now. Even tho I'm 40 my consultant won't do it for fear of multiple pregnancy - of course I'd let him put 103 in so I'm glad that's one decision out of my hands. You're quite right, what you gain in cheaper treatment is balanced right out by seriously less choice in what that treatment is!

Soosy, I'm going for fresh first because of my age. It's the best way to give us the best chance of success and I'm saving the frosties. Of course their chance of success is more related to the age I was when they were fertilized - i.e. 38 so you never know...the irony will be if we spend 10K on fresh cycles without success and then they work but it's all a game of chance and we're just trying to do what seems best as we go along.

Best to everyone else too.

hi bambi!

I'll be the Dutch IVF correspondent along with EHM from Germany

EHM - glad your transfer went OK and good luck with the 2WW. Emotional rollercoaster doesn't quite describe it, but we are here if you need to vent

JaneHH - welcome! I think I posted on your other thread, feel free to ask away here too

Bambi - totally agree that you can only do what seems best at the time. I would happily spend every penny I had now in order to know whether I will have another child or not.

Hmm, wonder if anyone can shed any light on this for me - I think I am due to ovulate about now, and feel very bloated and sore around both ovaries. Now I guess this is because of the drugs still in my system from my Jan/Feb failed cycle? Does this happen to anyone else in their first "natural" cycle after IVF? Oh, if only I still had functioning tubes! Seems such a waste to ovulate in a non-IVF cycle!

Hope everyone is well. Soosy, the wine and dinner sounded good!

(Hi only - yes, recognised your name! Thanks for posting on my thread yesterday. Appointment tomorrow so we'll see how we get on...)

Onlyaphase - I could well imagine that you are ovulating as a result of the IVF drugs as I know two people who suddenly ovulated "naturally" in the first month after a failed round of IVF and got pregnant. (And I also got pregnant with my DD the first month after I came off six months' worth of hormone treatment and the consultant said that ovulation was almost certainly supported by the residue of drugs in my system from the treatment).

Bambilocket - Things are very out-of-date here. Germany?s laws on reproduction are influenced by the country?s past, and some of the provisions do seem archaic.

As a rule, it is the case that you have to be married for IVF/ICSI. There is an exception for those in a permanent relationship, but special discretionary dispensation is required from the Medical Ethics Commission. The other problem with not being married is that the public health insurers (which cover all but a very small minority of privately insured patients) can refuse to pay their 50% share of the costs, so you end up funding it yourself.

The requirement that all fertilised eggs that are allowed to develop beyond 24 hours are put back is because human life is deemed to start at this point and the fertilised egg is immediately placed on a par with a fully developed person (thus there is also no screening of embryos for genetic disorders, nor experimentation on embryos). Perhaps this is laudable, but its consequences are nonsensical because it not only tends to result in increased multiple pregnancies (with all the risks to life and limb these entail for all involved) but also to increased demand for reductions (and I absolutely fail to see the logic in saying you cannot dispose of a two-day-old embryo only for it to be reduced as a foetus at, say, 12 weeks). Mind you, it is supposedly quite hard to get a reduction here as it is not a matter of choice but is at the discretion of yet another public body. There is pretty much abortion on demand, though ?. which brings us neatly back to Soosy?s point about the unequal treatment of the fertile and the infertile ?.

It?s a mad system! I actually try and ignore it all as much as possible or, depending on my hormone status, I either get violently angry or pathetically weepy!

Anyway, one essay(!) and one welcome to JaneHH later, I'm off to bed!!

Hello Jane HH! Hope you have managed to catch up with the thread! OAP, I had a really achy time around ovulation this month, a bit surprisingly as my Consultant said it would take a couple of months for my cycle to return to normal. I think your ovaries are still recovering after being prodded about and it makes everything a bit uncomfortable, as well as all the drugs. Mind you I wouldn't rule out what the Red Queen says, as I now believe that with fertility there is more they don't know than they do know!

Bambi I understand your reasoning, I know others who have done similar, but 40 apparently is not old in fertility treatment terms, according to one consultant I know, and if you are producing good quality embryos, which you must do if you have frosties then you are doing ok!

EHM Fantastic news Hope you are resting and watching lots of TV and eating chocolate!

NMM he can be rather wonderful sometimes (my Dad), but he is not good on his own, which is not often as he has a busy social life and travels quite a bit, but then he can be quite demanding!

Red Queen, I don't think you should blame your anger on hormones I think it is entirely justified. I get furious everytime I see self funding on my bills from the hospital, as it is the NHS saying they do IVF treatment, but they don't really because you are paying for it, like a private patient. They also use the ACU to make money for the hospital, as they know that people will pay fertility treatment. And the pathetic weeping, I do that when ds won't sleep, which is most nights!

SS where are you my darling we miss you, I hope you are ok, you have had a really tough time and I don't blame you for taking time out. I hope you are being spoilt rotten and we will hear from you soon.

Same to you Coggy, hope you are ok and treating your self to something fabulous.

If I have forgotten anyone I am sorry.

S x

Thanks for the advice Soosy and TRQ - I suppose it does make sense that my ovaries are complaining now. I always ovulate day 13/14, no exception now, just feels like I am in the middle of IVF again as it is THAT achy. Just wish I had functioning tubes!

TRQ - reading your account of how treatment is allocated has made me so angry! Can't believe they allow reductions yet force 3 embryos to be put back!

Off for a cup of tea....anyone else?

Hi all

Sorry to have disappeared for a bit - I was exhausted after the night in hospital (have I told you my hospital story yet - it's quite a shocker!) and then had my work deadline to deal with and as I'm self employed can't take time off sick!

Good news - my HCG levels have now dropped to negligible so it all seems to have resolved itself. I'm even back exercising which makes me happy. I guess I'm starting to ponder what happens next - after the last few weeks I said I'd never ever do treatment again but I wonder if I'll change my mind.

By the way, my injection sites are all itchy - all for of them - anyone had this after gestone?? I haven't even had an injection for about 2 weeks so it seems odd.

Bambi - I agree with Soosy - plenty of 40+ women get pregnant from IVF and although the stats are lower it is such an individual thing.

OAP - I have a cuppa too - sending you a choc digestive (the ones I shouldn't be eating but I am anyway!!)

EHM - good luck - keep your feet up and eat lots of chocolate!

JanehH - welcome to the thread!

TRQ- oh I swoon at my friend's stories of German healthcare - ultrasound in her GP and every time she had an appointment during her miscarriage scare she was scanned straight away - now I could have done with that the other day instead of being admitted to the shitty hospital!

Hi to everyone else, got to go now and wake ds from his nap.

x

SS - what on earth happened to you in hospital? Can't believe things could have got worse for you after all you had already been through. What happened after your GP sent you to hosp?

Also, I am a firm believer in letting the dust settle before making any rash decisions re treatment. You never know what is round the corner for you

I interrupt this thread with apologies....been trying to track down nomore to find out how she is as I can't ask on Facebook....so sorry. Normal scheduling now resumed.

[makecakes backs out of room in grovelly fashion]