TTC way longer than 10 months past & present

[joycep]

A group of lovely ladies who've seen it all

Euro, that is amazing news. Love the pictures on the other place. All I can say is well done for making it through a horrendously worrying time and hope you now get to enjoy her being at home with you. Wow, another one of us out of here. Who's next I wonder?

Joy yey to your cyst having gone, thank goodness for that. And great to get started again, fingers crossed they know what they're doing in giving you the same drug again, the cyst thing must not happen regularly or surely they wouldn't give it? When will your next scan be? And jeez at your friends. I have to say you seem to have a number of spectacularly insensitive friends, I can only think that you sweetly hide a lot of your rawest feelings from them and are a very kind friend. I did giggle at your what would be suitable German words for that, bit too advanced for my current level I think!

Ray have you had any more thoughts about booking appointment for another opinion?

Dulcet sorry about them not being able to tell if it's a cyst or not, you'd think they'd have better scanning equipment, or knowledge or something.

Foxy am thinking of you and hoping that your system is clearing itself of all those drugs and righting itself again and you start to feel better soon. What an ordeal I still can't believe it.

Critter swimming late at night in a quiet pool sounds very peaceful and soothing. I love swimming. And great exercise, what great preparation for the next round. Though oh wouldn't it be amazing for that diff to just happen for you before that.

Buzzy that is such a sad thought of women years ago having to cope with all this with no mumsnet support, it must have been really hard. I remember very clearly how much better I felt after my first conversation on MN.

Free and Sea if you're still reading, how's things? Bunny how's it going?

Posting to get us back on to the first page!

joy I agree with cos that you seem to have more than your fair share of insensitive friends. Of course having a baby is amazing, is there any need to rub it in? I really value the friends I have who don't gush about it all. I've definitely stayed closer to those people and have dropped the others. I'm so happy for you that your cycle is back on after the little delay. What is the treatment plan this time? Will it be identical to before? Are you having the scratch again or do the effects last?

cos I could teach you some fertility related words to add to your Deutsch vocab list :)

euro how have centime's first nights at home been?

I've had a fantastic weekend of pampering and treats. I was enjoying being somewhere where there were no children but of course a heavily pregnant woman in a bikini chose to sit right next to me beside the pool. Her partner kept stroking her bump. DH and I were able to laugh about it afterwards though. Having a break from ivf and not jumping into the next cycle has definitely been the right thing to do. I'm feeling fairly relaxed at the moment and feel like some of the anxiety and general uneasiness has left me. I do get worried when I think of the future though but trying to live in the now.
Waves to all.

dulcet I know what you mean about feeling 'small' - it's pretty much the most vulnerable you can get, being in that situation, so it's hard to be assertive and ask lots of questions! I hope you have a good scan this week.

ray that sounds like a lovely weekend. I am so glad you're feeling a bit better and can collect your thoughts a bit before going into round two. It's so important to be in a better head space. Is it looking like October or September for you?

buzz I loved your post on kitty the other day. You are such a talented photographer.

cos late night swimming is the best. I went with sister critter last night and then we sat in the sauna for 10 minutes, it was the best. I am actually really lucky because the pool is only about five minutes' walk from where I live. Tbh apart from the TTC woes and grief, I am so lucky, I really do have a lovely home set up.

I can't think of a new positive thing to do... hmmm. Maybe if I knit everyday for 30 days? Or commit to doing 15 minutes a day free writing? That could work.

Oh and the other thing I've started doing is actually saying sod it, and buying new clothes, wearing my 'good' underwear, and taking the time to blowdry my hair nicely (even using velcro rollers!). This TTC crap really eats away at your confidence, and so making an effort to look glamorous and present myself well has helped me not feel old and sad.

Oh and in other news - because this is the only place I can obsess to the full extent and know nobody will mind - I have been spotting and my temp has dropped. So now I don't think I oved and just think the rebel critter ovaries are playing silly buggers as usual. Am a bit nervous that the spotting will balls up the next cycle as well when we do the next transfer. Sigh.

I am poking my head out of the burrow. Man that was a bad tent stint! I just cannot believe my bloody bad luck, it really is incredible. I have just about recovered from a delightful combo of thrush, uti and ibs. So when people ask me if I had a good break I might just poke them in the eye. My period is like a whole new league of period, like Super Period. It does bother me a bit that my normal periods are comparatively feeble. Mm. Anyway, we could have cycled again in two weeks time with a new donor (who was actually a closer match physically) but we are waiting until after Christmas as work wise it is not a good idea and actually I'd like to get my body off the drugs. I am still having hot flushes so hope that isn't a permanent feature. I am still angry that I was put on 12mg of estrogen as I didn't need it, it is like my file has a big rubber stamp saying 'throw everything at the granny'. We are meeting with the donor team in early November and I will be taking a list of questions about all of this. Here is what I want to know so any ten plusser advice gratefully received;

1. How do you know how much estrogen I should be taking if you don't do blood tests?
2. Do I really need clexane? (might do level 2 immunes, thinking this through)
3. How can you lessen the time I spend on buserelin? Are there alternatives?

Agh to thinking about this whole bloody thing and I'm gutted I will hit the 4 year anniversary no nearer to the end of it all. Sorry for the whinge post but I really am cut up about the whole thing.

But enough of me. Joy I was so pleased to hear that your cyst is gone. It blows me away how little care is taken with words that are bandied around like facts in this profession.

Ray I loved reading your upbeat post. I'm glad you have been doing lovely distracting things.

Critter your ovaries can join mine in the delinquent ovary gang, it is very exclusive. We are going to book our break tonight and I am so hoping dates coincide with you.

Cos how goes it? I wonder if this was a healing af flushing out post op bits and bobs, as there must be internal 'scabs' though I have just spent a whole minute trying to find a more pleasant word!!

Euro - you made it! I felt quite teary reading your journey. Keep us posted with things.

Pout, hope you're still about. Did you get results from the GP? I was really miffed to get a uti on the back of everything else, it felt like the icing on the f**g cake. But those drink sachets seem to be keeping it at bay fingers crossed.

Dulcet, how are you? Did you have the second scan?

Oh and I have been thinking of a second opinion, just to scratch and itch. But, I am worried this will mean revealing a probable high fsh and zero rated amh. Do I need to know?

Hey fox, nice to see you back out of the tent. Although foxes have dens don't they? Will you have a different donor if you go after Xmas? The autumn is a really busy time workwise for us too and just thinking about trying to combine it with ivf is giving me nausea. Re. The clexane. I think it's fairly standard now because they know it improves pregnancy rates but they don't quite know why. Also, I read something about the blood clotting of the father might also be a risk to the embryo so even if the mother has no known clotting problems then there still might be a risk to the embryo because of something to do with the father. In addition, ivf does increase risk of blood clots anyway.

I'm going to try and post more later when I have time. It's quiet on here, hope everyone is ok.

fox so glad you're out of the tent a little. And so sorry that this is now all put off another few months, although perhaps you can take the next few months to breathe and recover from the drugs and do your yoga. And argh at 4 year anniversaries and the amount of time this is all taking. It's just so rubbish. You really have been clobbered. I think those are all good questions. Writing them down will help.

ray sorry to hear the autumn will be so busy, I wish work wasn't an extra stress for you to have to deal with.

critter I like swimming and sauna too. I've decided to pamper myself a bit more so I'm trying to use the sauna at least once a week. I know it's not recommended for ttc but pah to that. When I'm caught up in the ttc shit, I sometimes forget about the good things in my life. Like you, I'm very lucky that I love so much about my lifestyle. I know what you mean about the confidence being zapped through all of this. I think because my body has failed me in this one respect then I think of it all as being old and shrivelled. I do feel that I've aged considerably in the last few years.

My temp falls a day or so before AF starts, could that explain the drop? I spot for a day or two too. Do you have pcos or is there another explanation for your erratic ovulation?

fox did your clinic explain what went wrong with the donor? I hated the oestrogen I had for the fet. It made me feel more ill than I did on the fresh cycles. I'm not sure what does I was on, I know I had to increase it day by day and they never took any blood tests.

I have bit the bullet and set up an appointment at my clinic for Monday. Depending on what the dr says I think it might be possible for me to fit in a cycle before the end of Sept. There is no way I can cycle in Oct or Nov. Perhaps we could do a cycle over xmas. It is infuriating critter that work gets in the way of this. I know I could say that this is more important and stuff work but I have to be realistic and if I can't have a baby then work is even more important.

Ray – great that you have booked. Sometimes taking that first step is good. You sound really upbeat which is great and it’s so nice when ttc some how falls to the back of one’s mind and you can appreciate all the great things in life. Oh and yes and yes to old and shrivelled.

Fox – lovely to see you and i can’t believe your bad luck either. Seriously i’ve been on about it before on here but it really makes me questions things. I think having time to get all those drugs out of your system is a really good idea before rushing in to things. You need to be in a good way for pregnancy and they obviously floored you. Those questions are good and I would it put to them that you don’t ever want to spend that long on those drugs again. Also sorry about the hot flushes, uti and thrush. It just beggars belief.
Uuumm as to getting a second opinion. If I was in your position, I probably would because dropping in a clanger saying you had 10 follicles is so left field of what you have been told, I would want all that clarified. When was the last time you had any of this tested? I guess the only thing is , what happens if they come back and say your system isn’t zero but is mediocre , will that cause more angst and more difficult decisions? Sorry about the 4 year mark – it totally sucks. I remember being told about a couple who took 4 years to conceive and I thought I would never cope if I took that long and then the marker disappears in to the distance. Now 3 years doesn’t sound that long any more which is odd.

Critter – argh to temps dropping and spotting. FGS. Not another worry. I really hope it doesn’t mess up your next cycle.

Cos – i was moaning to Roy about these friends being insensitive when they sent us this email and he got quite stern with me and said they have just had a baby they aren’t thinking. Needless to say i was put out that he didn’t agree with me. how are you feeling after horrible last week’s appearance of Af?

Buzz – thanks , good to know people are delusional when they say it is all amazing! I will remember that in future. I do hope one day I will be able to compare being on my knees from parenting and being on my knees from infertility.

Dulcet , i hope the scan is more conclusive this week. and i hope it’s not a cyst too.

Pout – it’s really interesting you sweat more now too. I wonder whether this is a common theme with ivfers because if so i think that’s bloody worrying. Any news on your uti test?

Euro – yippee to Centime being home. Such a relief to hear. Enjoy motherhood!

I really hope this cycle can go ahead. These pills really interfere with my sleep which affects work and my other work which is so annoying but i’ve got another 12 days or so before i know. Was talking to a new friend who i’ve made recently and she spent quite a few years trying to get pregnant and her amh was zero. So she never did ivf but her final resort was Chinese herbs and she managed to have a son. The clinic she used took blood tests and would change the herb prescriptions according to her ovulation charting and have 75% success rate apparently. I always hear these stories and think...oh god i better go and do herbs next. I actually really don’t want to pump these drugs in to me again, I can’t help but feel they are doing a lot of damage. But perhaps the herbal route is another goose chase. I’m always plotting and plotting. But this friend has never been able to have a second child and she said it has really stuck with her and made her angry that she has spent 10 years of her life trying to get pregnant. They also fell out of the adoption process because as they had a bio child already, they didn’t want a damaged child but it was just impossible to be matched with one even though they were in the private adoption system. How depressing is that.

foxy they sound like good questions, I would ask about the clexane, my immune clinic only used it if you had clotting issues as they thought that if you didn't it could work against you, they recommended baby aspirin. I had Diphereline depot to DR most likely the same family of drugs, which was just one jab, I think sea is the probably the expert on the matter.
I would certainly question the estrogen dose and the timing with the donor and other recipient, I understand its difficult to co ordinate 3 people but you seemed along time on the drugs
Nothing wrong with a second opinion

joy sorry Roy was not understanding to how you felt, do these friends know you are trying, yes they have a baby but you can still think after having a baby, not as well as you used to but you can still function trust me there are alot of couples out there raving on how great it all is when really they are barely keeping their heads above water but saying its all fab, I love BB but there have been times when I've looked at the clock and thought how long till Barry comes home so I can have 5 minutes to myself. Interesting about the herbs, hard to know really, I think its very difficult to adopt a none 'damaged' child to be honest, all children put up for adoption have some sort of 'history' also their child has to be at least 3 and they couldn't adopt an plder child, have they considered overseas adoption, we have looked into it but it is costly.

ray You do sound more positive and good that you have contacted the clinic

critter hopefully the temp drop won't interfere with your next cycle

dulcet any news from your scan

fox It is so nice that you are about. Good for you getting together an interrogation plan for the hospital. Why are they making you wait until November to see you? After the tremendous fuck up I would expect them to be falling over themselves to speak to you and Hare sooner.

Thanks for asking about my urine test. No infection bizarrely given that I was weeing every twenty minutes but blood again. I've had to do a third test and will have a scan of my urinary tract at the end of Aug. I've also been referred to a urologist because obviously you shouldn't have blood in your wee. I've been scaring myself with Dr Google and horrible stats about bladder cancer but TBH I reckon it might be interstitial cystitis (because the sachets have helped) or damage to the tract following the EC and lap. Anyway, hurrah to more intrusive tests Also found out that I'm vit D deficient. Dr Google says that can be a factor in unexplained infertility. If a multi vitamin turns out to be the magic bullet I will be both pissed off and ecstatic!

critter I hope that the temp drop just indicates AF for you. I think that spending time on making yourself feel glam is a great thing. That is something that definitely has fallen by the wayside for me. I've never been that into make up and clothes but I really am not rocking the bag lady look right now!

cos how are you doing? Has your period calmed down a bit?

joy I must admit I read avidly what you were saying about herbs. I feel like I have gone full circle now and am back to lapping up all the claims about snake oils. I am sorry that Roy didn't understand how you felt. Men are quite black and white in their thinking sometimes aren't they? MrP doesn't get the nuances of social interraction at all and wouldn't see any problem in those comments either. It's rubbish though that they can make us feel bad for being emotionally switched on though. FX for the go ahead to cycle for you!

dulcet I totally agree that gynae exams don't exactly make you feel empowered to grill the doctor! I think you are just hell bent on getting it over with and get your knickers back on pronto, conversation is just plain weird!

buzz I love the way you are so honest about motherhood. We all know that you adore BB but you never shy away form being honest - thank you for that.

ray Hurrah for appointment booking and possible cycling. You have seemed quite down, I hope you are feeling more buoyed.
I did snigger at your spa trip and bump stroking interloper. That could only happen to one of us! I hate bump fondling and get the rage when I watch Eastenders & Kat rubbing her "bump" like it is a fecking magic lamp.

Totally agree with pout Buzz and love your honesty. Also friend's son is 7 and it just proved impossible. Sadly she told me the infertility and pain have now driven her and her husband apart and so they definitely won't be adopting. I am sure that people who aren't going to make it as couples wouldn't anyway, I mean they do have a child. She blames infertility but I wonder whether it really is the main cause. But it's always a worry.

Pout- goodness I am sorry about the blood. It won't be anything serious I am sure but a bit worrying that ivf would have caused this. Gargh at more tests, it is so frustrating. And you've never been tested for vitD before?? This is a standard check for infertility and doctors should be doing it as a matter of course....yes there have been a number of studies linking vitd with infertility hence why I spray it on my tongue every night (even though I was never deficient!) my god imagine if that was at the route!!
Also herbs , uuum i am intrigued and would love to give them a go but I have succumbed to nearly everything and not one thing has worked and will I feel robbed and gullible again. But the thing is with me that I don't think internally I am in good shape. I have terribly dry skin, permanent thrush, get terrible boob pain and I cough up phlegm - all of these have developed whilst TTC. It's as if I need completely flushing out and rebalancing and I just know synethetic drugs haven't helped. Worry over the years has probably aided in my decline as well. Anyway I will see what happens.

You know I saw a double rainbow recently well Roy saw one last night as well. I told him that was now a double sign we were going to have twins. You know you've lost it a bit when you become convinced that nature is sending you a message!

Hi ladies, a bit frazzled, sorry for lack of check in.

joy I love the double rainbow sign. We saw a really gorgeous double rainbow during my mc - there was a massive rainstorm beforehand - and I told MrC that the big one was James and the little faint one was the bean I was losing. We went up on our roof and I felt so much joy looking at it. We could see all our neighbours coming out to admire it too.

pout that is interesting on the herbs. I do wonder about agnus castus but am scared to mess around with herbs and also resent the idea of paying for 'snake oil'. But it could be worth a shot, I guess.

fox thinking of you and hoping you have some lovely hols booked.

ray good luck on Monday. Maybe we can have a three-woman tandem with joy?

buzz I love your posts.

Sister critter is here and it is SO nice. Loving her company. Weirdly feeling quite happy at the moment - in my relationships and work, and the sun is out which helps. Trying not to feel guilty about it because I know the sadness is around the corner and will come back. And I need to be emotionally strong for the next cycle.

bunny how's it going?

Hi ladies,

Sorry for the lack of namechecks. I am still reading from time to time and hoping for a crop of good news soon on this thread. Too many have had too tough a time here.

I know some of you have cycles coming up and I wanted to offer you my Clexane if any of you need it. I have finally been given the all clear to come off but ARGC got the prescription wrong and I have quite a lot of the stuff left. It seems like such a waste to get rid of it. I think there's about £100 worth of the stuff. Happy to give it to a good home.

If any of you need this - happy to send to you if you PM me. They are 20mg syringes with the spring needle (which hurts less than the traditional ones). Let me know if you can use it.

PS no box or instructions as I binned that already.

Hi sea, it's nice of you to pop back! How are you doing? I'm impressed that you've managed to keep up injecting clexane for all this time. How have you coped with the bruising? That is such a kind offer, I was on fragmin last time so I'll have to wait and see what drug regime I'm put on this time so I'll let the other ladies have first dibs.

joy and critter that is so lovely about the rainbow. critter there is a star that shines very brightly that I see every night when I close my curtains, it always makes me think of James because I noticed it for the first time on the day you first posted about losing him.

joy last year on my birthday there was a meteorite shower and I took that to be a sign. I'm still waiting though :) I understand why you'd be thinking about the herbs but I don't think it's going to be the magic answer. I'd always be very sceptical of self reported success rates. Having said that, I'm getting close to the point of thinking anything is worth a try so long as it's relatively safe, legal and not too expensive.

pout I hope you get the bladder thing sorted. I'm so sorry that you've been feeling ill. One thing to mention is perhaps they might need to explore gyn causes too because I have a friend who kept getting uti and then they discovered she had a fibroid that was pressing on her bladder. Wouldn't it be great if vit D was the answer. They do say it's important. I try to make sure I get out in the sun for the required 20 mins a day because I read that vit d from the sun is better than supplements. I haven't taken my conception vits in ages, I probably should start again but the ones I had are out of date and I feel annoyed at having to throw them out and spend more money on something I've been buying for almost 5 years.

The money aspect of fertility treatment really annoys me. A friend was moaning about having to spend 1k on dental work and I was thinking that sounded like peanuts. I think it gives a warped view of treatment costs.

Evening all,

Critter thanks so much for thinking of me. I'm quietly getting on with things. I'm glad that you are having a wonderful time with sister critter. You deserve some respite from all the sadness this year. I loved hearing about late night swimming (reminded me of the REM song) and being glam. And weird that both you and Joy have seen double rainbows, we saw one on Thursday after going for a walk and it made me think of the two I lost; and then the two I've got right in this moment. Double rainbows are beautiful.

Ray I was so delighted to hear that you had a fab birthday and lots of lovely treats. You looked stunning on the other place in your gorgeous dress. Big eye roll to the couple with the bump and bikini. Pur-lease.

Fox well done for venturing out of the tent. I think you should cross examine your bastard clinic thoroughly. Demand answers! I hope you're healing well and that your indulging in crafty crafts and yoga.

Joy I'm sorry about your tactless friends. My god we were so careful with mini bunny's birth announcement to two sets of couple friends who've been struggling. Because we learned how painful it was to be on the receiving end of "good news" when there is nothing good to mutually share. It bloody hurts and DH had to pick up the pieces more times than I care to remember. Sorry that Roy didn't back you up. Interesting about the Chinese meds. Would you consider doing a healing / cleansing diet or any sort of hair analysis to see if you're deficient in any vitamins / minerals or other natural supplements?

Pout waves and air kisses! I don't think you were insensitive. I'm still amazed I've got a bun in the oven. My mum reckons that a fertility reset button must have been pressed by mini bunny. I personally think that me and DH were just unhealthy in the past. Really unhealthy what with both being smokers, heavy drinkers, caffeine junkies and all the rest. We gave all of that up (well Mr P is still a caffeine junkie but has appalling patches of scaly eczema, which I'm sure are stress, caffeine and dairy related) so long ago now and eat so well, I just think it tipped the balance for us. We're just lucky. My god, so lucky.

I agree with Buzzy that parenting is not all sunshine and laughter. Today I've got a sick teething toddler with a hacking cough and a worse mood than most sullen teenagers. I got 5 hours of broken sleep last night, I've been clawed at (and have the scratches to show) for not getting my boobs out quick enough and I shouted at the pair of them (mr p and mini bunny) whilst retching over the sink and peeling potatoes. I'm not proud, I hate losing it at a tiny person. So, for those who have friends who make out it's the most amazing thing ever and skip around in la la land, they are massive stinky liars with an iron front. I reckon my front to friends and acquaintances is pretty formidable, as is my application of concealer. And I'm mostly very happy and count my lucky stars every morning and night but I can't pretend it's not tough!

In other news, my new larder cupboard comes tomorrow. It's painted in F&B skylight and I'm so happy that I can finally put things away and tidy the kitchen. It still feels like there's so much to do to finish the house.

Saturday night waves and paw squeezes and hugs. The thread is due some good news soon. Maybe a whole clutch of autumnal duffs and lights out by the end of the year. That's what I'm cosmically ordering for everyone anyway :)

Hello bunny. Do you have a scan soon? Thanks to you and to buzzy for your honesty. I like hearing both the good and the ugly :)

Quick question: what day in the cycle should the scratch be done? I think I've probably missed the boat for having it done if I want to start next cycle. I'm on day 18.

Did anyone read the thread in chat about infertility? There's a link to a radio 4 programme that was quite interesting.

Ray I agree it's nice to hear an honest picture. I increasingly feel I can discuss or hear about the things fine if it's factual, or even funny, it's the emotional (and good emotional at that) side that's hardest. I can't even remember when I had the scratch now, I think probably day 21 ish? You had to def not be pregnant, so not to have tried, though you could probably lie about that bit? Have you been doing all this in t'other language or do they speak English? I've been enjoying my little language learning sessions. My favourite word so far is the one for 'excuse me' which to me just sounds like 'chewlybum'. 10 mins a day spent thinking about another language is 10 mins not obsessing about ttc at least. I had a quick look at the radio 4 programme - was it really depressing? Not sure if I'm up for it or not. And yes yes to the money. Feels like I've got a very expensive hobby or addiction with no upside.

Bunny many thanks for my share of your cosmic ordering! So glad to hear things are going well and you're keeping busy. The 12 week point can't be far off. You've triggered a discussion chez nous about how healthy we are and I think kick started another little health kick so thanks for that.

Sea thanks for the offer but I don't need it at the moment. Glad things are still ok with you, and great news about coming off the clexane.

Critter that's so great you've been having a little patch of happiness, long may it last for you. Sister Critter sounds fab, glad she's such a great support. Will you travel back with her?

Pout sorry for the scary blood in the wee, that's not good. And vit d deficient, oh that would be amazing if something like that sorted things out for you. Look at bunny?

Fox if you're reading honey, massive squeeze. Im so sorry you've felt so awful. I did snigger at the poking people in the eye comment. If only we could have Ally McBeal style fantasy moments sometimes. I'm so glad they didn't try to bully you into starting again before you're ready for it. You need to be in a good starting place at least to cope with the whole regime of it. Are you able to explore possibilities of own eggs without jeopardising the donor cycle? I guess it's weighing up the what's possible, with the best chance of success, and what's most important to you now and in the future. Not easy.

Joy I loved the story of the double rainbow. I think that sounds like a definite sign. I can so picture you with twins. I wonder about herbs too, they obviously worked for Free. The thing though it probably getting the right herbalist and the right ones for to suit you, I once discussed it with a doc in an Ivf clinic and he didn't dismiss it could work, he just said how do you know you're taking the right ones? I'm sure these people who just fall pg after years and years, or even the ones after giving up, I'm sure something's caused a biological change, I don't think it's just a random good embryo. Sorry Roy wasn't quite on your page about the email, DH can be like that. It's sad about that couple you talked about, I can see how easily that could happen, it's a stressful burden on a relationship, but then so are having children so I agree relationships that split under the strain if ttc I reckon could split under the strain of any number of things. And the thing about feeling angry about spending 10 years trying, well what else would she have done with that time? I think I'd feel more angry if I would have done something else, I don't feel I'm missing out on anything in life apart from a family if that makes any sense. In some ways it's nice to have the opportunity to try, I'd still rather be in my shoes than my single friends'. And I had some random thoughts this week about how I'd feel waking up aged 50 when the opportunity to try again really really had gone forever, and it galvanised me a little in terms of now's the time to try no matter how small the possibility.

And on that note I've been thinking seriously about the Ivf clinic which is very close to my work, and randomly someone told me about a nice success story from there. I'm sure you shouldn't choose a clinic based on convenience but it would be very easy. I'm thinking maybe start of next year to give a bit of time to save up, or late autumn if I crack before then. I would love to do the herb thing again and have that work but I don't think I have the patience to give it 6 months or so. We've also been talking end points, and possibly that being my 40th, so another 3.5 years, which seems forever and not that long all at once. I've been plotting about what we could save up for in the meantime which we'd have otherwise have spent on kids and what we could do as a lifestyle alternative (Joy I'm like you, always plotting plotting about something!) After feeling very positive about what the op might do for me, I've gone right back to feeling extremely negative again, which after one month is not very logical but you just feel you know things sometimes, don't you, and do you ever feel sometimes all the feelings, from all the failures kind of merge together? That's not a very upbeat note to finish on is it!

It's early days for me but I agree with Bunny and buzzy. Parenting is rewarding but tough. C feeds roughly every three hours, around the clock. The feed/express/change routine takes at least an hour. So at night we only manage to sleep in hour and a half chunks at best. We are both wrecked! I'm not complaining for a moment, but nor would I wish to give the impression that it is all sunshine and roses. There is a lot of sleep deprivation and a lot of unpleasant bodily fluids to deal with in the early days!

fox I hope you are feeling better. I cannot believe what awful luck you have had.

joy I hope the double rainbow brings you your pot of gold (with a baby sat on top).

cos I wouldn't choose a clinic based on convenience above all else, but I wouldn't underestimate the importance of that either. Anything that can lower the stress of a cycle has to be a good thing in my book.

critter I'm glad you have sister critter out there. How is August in the city? I have always been advised to avoid it if I can as it gets so humid and have been lucky enough to mostly visit for work in the Spring.

ray my scratch was on day 24 or 25 I think. I was starting to worry that I was going to come on before they did it as the occasional shortish cycle was normal for me, but my body held out.

pout wouldn't it be incredible if something as simple as Vit D was the answer?

euro it's nice to hear from you! I'd been wondering how you and centime were getting on. I bet it's lovely to be all home.

cos I think swinging from positivity to negativity is fairly standard for the long termers. It's hard to maintain optimism all the way. I think convenience of clinic is very important because when you're in a cycle you have to go there so many times and not always at convenient times. One of the deciding factors in choosing our current clinic is that it's on the same street as DH's work so he can slip away easily. It's also close to my work and it's walkable from home. How many ivf cycles have you already done? Will they be trying anything new this time?

So, I'm back from my consultation. The Dr says our embryos are not good. They have the right number of cells but they are still low quality. Of course, he did say that this isn't a useful indicator of pregnancy because we all know that poor grade embryos do result in live births. However, the fact that all of mine appear to be poor does give some indication that the problem is with embryo quality and probably not with implantation. The eggs fertilise ok. Then something goes wrong. Because this has happened with every single embryo he says he wouldn't recommend just going again because it's not looking like a numbers game and just bad luck. There is something fundamentally wrong :( He checked through our genetic tests again, all ok there. He recommends that we do PICSI and also something that I'm not sure of the correct English name for. But it's when you test some material from the egg for genetic faults. joy is this what you're having done? And, we're going to give a natural cycle a go but using PICSI. This is because he said it might be that the drugs are causing me to have poor egg quality so he thinks we should give this a try. The best thing is they're going to let us do this at no cost!! I was so happy to hear that, I could have kissed him. I'm also so pleased that I don't have to go through all the drugs of a full cycle. Of course we don't expect the natural cycle to result in a baby but it might give us some more information about what is going wrong. I do feel like we're getting close to the end of the line though. There comes a point when there isn't anything else to try. Anyway, I'll be starting the natural cycle when AF arrives. I have a scan on day 10 and then they decide when to do ec. critter and joy do you think we'll be cycling together?

Very interestingly, he refused to do a scratch which I'm a bit miffed about. They conducted a research trial and it made no difference, and apparently a nation wide study showed the same so clinics over here have largely decided not to continue. DH argued with him a bit quoting some other research but he wouldn't budge. I'm not massively bothered because I don't think implantation is our problem but it does seem strange when UK clinics seem to be doing it as standard.

I must go and get some work done. Hope everyone is ok.

ray your appointment sounds useful and it's great news that you don't have to pay! I've not heard of picsi, but have just googled it and it sounds good. I don't think many places in the uk offer it yet - your clinic does sound good. Would they do it in conjunction with imsi? I've always thought of our situations as being similar as our DHs have similar SAs, but we have poor fertilisation rates, which the consultant put down to poor sperms. The clinic we used is all about lower amounts of drugs to create the best quality eggs, although with our crap fertilisation rates, we've needed a higher number of eggs to get anything! Anyway I'm waffling, I'm really pleased to hear they have a plan for you and also that you have been feeling a bit happier recently. I agree with Bunny that you looked rather gorgeous and well glam in the other interweb place.

cos for us, the nearest clinic happened to be the cheapest and the one with the approach we preferred! I think convenience is fairly important, as it's less stressful if you can get there easily for all the scans etc and has less of an impact on your daily life. But approach and success rates are also fairly important I guess. Maybe feeling comfortable and having confidence in them is the most important? Sorry to hear you aren't feeling positive again.

critter I'm so pleased you are having a lovely time with sister critter. You deserve some happiness and fun times. Do not feel guilty! Enjoying yourself is a v important part of healing and getting ready for the twibling.

fox I hope you are feeling a little better. I still can't believe what a shit time you had. Re clexane, my clinic prescribes it as routine. I was going to refuse it 2nd cycle (I'd been tested for clotting issues after the EC bleed), but they insisted cos of the OHSS risk during that cycle. For the FET I refused and took baby aspirin for a bit. Much cheaper and less stabbing involved!

joy I was so relieved to read the cyst had buggered off. I'm not a big believer in things like Chinese herbs but it did work for free and must have more of a chance of working where there isn't an identified issue, such as our severe male factor infertility. I've seen a double rainbow twice and on both occasions a very lovely (elderly) person I've known has died, so I've always thought of them as signs.

pout so sorry about the uti. I suffered with them ever since my first ivf when I got awful cystitis. The drs could never pick up the infection in the pee samples, but gave me antibiotics anyway. When pregnant, a routine wee sample picked up an uti caused by group B strep and I was given appropriate antibiotics. I haven't had one since then, so I wonder if that'd been the issue (or maybe it's cos I never have sex now, which I know can make it worse!) Oh I thought of you the other day, as the area we're moving to offers 2, yes 2, ivf cycles! You're not still in that area are you?

bunny yay to puking! Must be a good sign :) I'd love to see a pic of mini B. She must've had her first birthday a month or two ago?

euro pleased to hear Centime is doing well. Well done on the pumping! I hate expressing, urgh that bloody evil machine.

I agree with the others about babies not being all amazingness and newborn cuddles. I can't believe how insensitive some of your friends have been, particularly yours joy, after the terrible time you had the other year.

I've found the hard parts of having a baby (mostly the sleep deprivation - mini G still fairly regularly has nights of waking every hour) far harder than I ever imagined, but the good parts far better and the tinniest thing can bring immense pleasure. I hope you don't mind me saying that (or me popping back in here every now and again).

Ray I'm glad you've got a plan of action and not long till you start either. Your clinic sounds very rigorous. I really hope that you get some answers, and the bfp too. I really hope this one is your time. My scan is in 3.5 weeks. It's not a long time but it feels like forever away.

Cos I think convenience is important because you just don't want the hassle of travelling on top of everything else. Are you going straight for IVF or are you going to supplement your progesterone levels again? I didn't mean to sound preachy about diet stuff. I'm sure you and mr cos are far far healthier than me and mr p 5 years ago! Did you ever find Henrietta's stuff useful / helpful?

pout I'm sorry I forgot to mention your uti. Miserable. I haven't had one for ages but nearly ended up hospitalised with one that got my kidneys. I've had the really stonking anti biotics to clear them plus nurofen and codeine to knock the pain out. I hope they find something easily treatable. Oh tis awful, you poor thing.

Gin I'll send you a pic of mini via the other place. She's 14 months now. Time has flown!

X

Hi ladies

Lots of chat today, it's so nice to see the thread busy! In fact I'm a bit behind so sorry if I miss anyone or anything.

ray a natural cycle at no extra cost sounds really fantastic and I am glad that your doctor talked everything through with you. Glad things are moving fast, as well. It could be the ticket for you! I do think the drugs put a lot of stress on one's body.

cos love your posts. I reckon a late autumn or early winter cycle would be good. It'll give you the several months for things to happen on their own, and if they don't you can do the throw everything at it approach. I know what you mean about herbs. I have a half open bottle of agnus castus in my medicine cabinet. I've heard it can be good for PCOS ladies like me, but I don't want to mess anything up in my cycle more than it already is. I did smile at 'chewlybum'.

bunny sounds like all is going well, that's great news. I don't think you sound preachy in the slightest and I'm positive noone else does, we've all been through too much together to think that! Wow that mini bunny is 14 months. Time does fly indeed.

gin ha at no sex! I seem to have sex all the bloody time ATM, because we're so scared of missing a rare ovulation, not that it ever seems to happen, will be almost nice to have a break! The sleep deprivation does sound rotten. Your little one is such a cutie. So nice to have you posting here, please do stay!

euro last week was gorgeous here - no humidity and crisp and sunny. This week it's gotten muggy again but this summer has been nothing like as bad as previous ones I've had here where you arrive home dripping in sweat. The woes of a city built on a swamp. How are you feeling physically? I hope you have some help at home.

fox thinking of you my love.

joy sorry that Roy was unsympathetic. Boo. Sometimes the lovely men in our lives are so focused on being positive that they don't allow us to have a moan and a wallow when that's what we need to do. I do think you have some self-involved friends and I'm sorry they were so thoughtless after what you went through.

pout hope all's ok with you.

Back to doctor on Thursday morning. Still no ovulation, pink cm and womble cramps but those have been happening for weeks, so who knows what is going on. Depending on what's happening with my hormones/crazy ovaries, I'll potentially start taking oestrogen then to gear up for a mid-September twibling transfer. Will be claw-clutching with joy and ray I hope.

Critter – how lovely you have your sister out with you and glad you are feeling happy at the moment and there is no reason you should be feeling guilty.

Sea – you must be very close to your due date now. Thanks for the clexane offer. I am ok at the moment and have quite a lot if it left over from previous rounds.

Ray – that sounds like a productive meeting, but pretty depressing. It does sound similar to the kind of conversations we have had> it’s interesting that he is saying the drugs might be causing bad quality eggs because there is nothing to suggest so far that it is your egg quality. Isn’t this all down to sperm quality? My last clinic mentioned drugs may be causing poor quality embryos with me as well although this clinic said drugs don’t make a difference to quality so who knows. Anyway PICSI – what is that? Is that similar to IMSI which has been suggested to us? Also over here when they test for genetic faults , they call it PGD but that tends to be for people who produce lots of Blasts and they still fail to get pregnant or result in miscarriages. I still really can’t help but feel hopeful for you because male factor can be overcome....Anyway a natural cycle is great, what a relief! And interesting about the scratch – something else we have been told that is different!! But like you I feel we are coming to the end of the road. If I actually get to egg collection , this round will be the deciding factor for us and may tell us something we don’t want to hear.

Euro – nice to hear from you. sorry about the sleep deprivation, it always distorts things but I’m sure it will settle down.

Cos – what a perceptive thought about what else would we be doing in this time. You are so right, i would still far rather be in this position than single friends, although i have to say i don’t have many of those these days. after one month of trying with new womble, it’s not logical but then again you have been through a turbulent 7 year journey and it’s difficult to keep up the hope and belief. I still can’t believe this won’t happen for you cos but i think it’s prudent to have a plan of action just in case. An ivf clinic near to home is a good idea. I always base my choices on convenience. I do wonder whether things can change biomedically in someone. It’s so bizarre how there are so many stories of people struggling for yonks and then it happens. I was reading something Lauren Bacall had written and at the age of 22 she went to her doctor after 3 years of trying with Humphrey Bogart and he told her to relax. They had 2 kids in the end but more than 3 years at that age is very unusual.

Gin – so lovely for you to come back on. I love having the plusser mums stop by. Also i don’t mind you saying that small things with ginster give you so much pleasure, I can just imagine they do for any mum. Whilst I am sure the sleep deprivation is really hard and can really mess with one’s head and mood, there are still so many positives and I think we can all agree there isn’t one positive when it comes to infertility!

Bunny – i may have something like the hair analysis done at some point. Sounds like you have all the right pregnancy symptoms to me. Can’t believe the mini bunny is over a year old. wow!

Fox – how are you doing?

Pout – how’s the uti?

I stupidly clicked on an article on the BBC on Friday about what happens to women who want children but it never happens. I think someone is doing a massive press campaign about it because i think it’s linked to the Radio4 thing and there was something else in the DM. I advise NOT to read it. I felt unbelievably depressed reading the heartbreak and the fight that some women go through to have a child and then for it not to happen. Not only that but these people become isolated, they stop getting invited to things and it was horrible to read something that very well be Roy and my future. I kind of didn’t see a positivite because as someone said, “it’s not the flu, you don’t get over it”. Then I had a long voicemail from a friend saying they were having an amazing summer, having lots of fun with the kids and how they were growing up and quite honestly I felt absolutely crap. I seem to have some aversion to hearing about friend’s normal happy lives right now. but then again i guess i am artificially being put through the menopause...was shivering this morning and now suddenly i’m dripping in sweat. Oh the joys, I will blame that!

I like it when it's busy on here :)
bunny I'd love to see a photo too. I was thinking she must be over a year now, gosh how it's flown by.

gin we don't seem to have a problem with fertilisation. I don't know if that indicates the sperm that are there aren't actually that bad or not. PICSI is a way of finding a sperm they think is of good quality but it's not clear if it works and I think us trying it is more so we can say we've thrown everything at it.

joy it is depressing, you're right. Because I came away with the impression that we're now just trying everything that is possible but without knowing that it will make any difference at all. Initially we had the male factor problem. But because we have good fertilisation and the sperm look ok as far as you can tell, it's just there aren't many of them, they think the eggs must be shit or there is some sort of chromosone issue. I wonder if our situations are sort of similar in that the embryos aren't good but there's no obvious reason. I think we could have tried doing a full round again but I think the Dr is thinking that unless we change something we're going to keep getting the same result. 9 crap embryos isn't good. This natural round will be viewed more as diagnostic than treatment because they will do the genetic test thing on the egg to see if that's the problem and knowing that it's not caused by the drugs and also they'll try PICSI. I'm at the stage now where I honestly can say I don't expect anything to work but I feel like I have to try so I can say that we didn't give up and won't regret it when we do because we've done everything we can.

I listened to that programme and actually it didn't really upset me in the way I thought it might. I didn't identify with the women if I'm honest. I can't believe that one of them had tried 11 rounds of ivf. I don't want to let it eat me up and I don't want to let it define me. There's an interesting thread in chat about it. joy I do think that your friends sound particularly insensitive.

critter that's lovely that you have sister critter with you (does anyone else always imagine her as a nun in a habit because of the sister bit?)