TTC for 10+ months, part 10

[princesschick]

A very friendly and supportive thread for those taking way longer than they had ever expected to make a baby.

gin you are an egg making machine [hgrin] go follies

euro I can understand not taking the steroids, they made me feel shit each month, although I will take them if I get a BFP.

mellow there is a trial called 'PROMISE' up in Liverpool I think about NK cells and it helping with recurrent miscarriages, which is why I am on them, especially as I don't believe that recurrent miscarriages are just bad luck and I am not being offered any other explanation or help.

critter glad you haven't been blown away a la 'Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz' I too have just made Banana Bread [hgrin]

doll well impressed with the bartering,

artemis sorry you are having such a rough time with the down regging, this through the NHS isn't it?? Nothing surprises me with them anymore [hhmm] what a happy contented NHS worker I am [hsmile]

rabbit I hope you have enjoyed your time off

nelly glad you are going away for a couple of days

pout I hope you are ok, thinking of you

well last night Barry and I thought we would have some fun, so off to the bedroom we went, shut the door and were getting down to it when all of a sudden we heard this noise like someone trying to open the door, (scared the bejeezus out of us both), then came the frantic meowing,according to Barry my laughing didn't help

waves to everyone else

I'm feeling a bit left out of all this banana bread action! Last time I tried it was underwhelming (even the birds weren't having any) but I've got 3 bananas sitting quietly ignored in the kitchen so i might have a go.

Gin I'll be a shag beast you say? Interesting... I reckon the pill killed my libido and TTC then buried it under the patio so that will make a welcome change... maybe I had better warn Mr A to dust off his protective clothing and hard hat [hgrin] BTW yes I will make half the conference, I'll have to miss the second day to come back and get scanned but it's better than missing the whole thing. At least I'll get to some of the tedious important networking. And I will be smug and sober while everyone else gets pissed on the free booze [hhmm]

Nelly post-stabbing and pre-wedding time away sounds like a good idea [hsmile]

Buzzy our cat likes to get in on bedroom action too... I think it's just that she's nosy and doesn't like to be left out of anything [hhmm]

I'm still trying to make good on the work I failed to do today... another half hour I reckon. Good smells coming from the kitchen at least. Mr A is doing his job well [hsmile]

I'm liking these Hallowe'en smileys a bit too much [hsmile] [hwink]

[hgrin] about the cat action - and artemis hope your dinner was delicious?!
nelly great that you're too busy to stress and have some nice plans to get away peri-stabbing.

Buzzy -I really agree that recurrent miscarriages are more than just bad luck .

Thanks for the info - I've just had a read, but it doesn't seem to be about NK cells or steroids? PROMISE (PROgesterone in recurrent MIScarriage) Trial, but about validating the use of progesterone in patients with multiple miscarriages? My BIL works for the HFEA and has done some research in this area for his job. The facts not very clear about this - there are some women who have multiple miscarriages and have increased NK cells in their blood - but it is unclear whether this is a cause or effect phenomenon. One 2008 study showed that steroids vs placebo increased the number of women who had a successful pregnancy after a miscarriage - but it was a small flawed study. I'm not saying that there is nothing in it or even that women shouldn't try taking steroids - if I'd had multiple miscarriages, I would - I just feel that the industry needs to take responsibility for what it is doing - particularly the private sector, and either publish a retrospective review of the women they've treated with immunosuppressive therapy over the years to inform the decisions of all involved or stop doing it- because the problem at the moment is that it is mostly anecdotal and these clinics are taking money off very vulnerable people (like us) without any evidence to back up their practice.

Sorry, I guess I feel quite strongly about it.

In fact, I do think it likely that there is an inflammatory or autoimmune component to some subfertile women and those who suffer from recurrent miscarriage and some decent research needs to be done - as a public-private partnership perhaps? I don't know. And I think in our environment, where allergy and auto-immune diseases are becoming increasingly prevalent, this isn't a decreasing problem. But anyway, my ranting on the world-wide-web on a Tuesday night isn't going to make any difference! I hope I haven't upset you.

I hope that you get your bfp and steroids help! I've certainly got my fingers crossed!

mellow there is a trial with the steroids, I think Prof Q is involved with it, trust me when you suffer recurrent miscarriages you'll take anything if you think it will help you really don't worry about anecdotal or evidence you just want your baby and will do whatever is needed. Shehata is a clinical lead on it, my testing was done on the NHS, there are a few NHS trusts that do it now.

There is the pred thread on hear which has a few women who have had several miscarriages and gone onto having a healthy baby, that is evidence for me

mellow that's all very interesting. I do feel that there must be an immune element to some cases of infertility/subfertility. I read Dr Beer's book from cover to cover and it made a huge amount of sense to me. I do wish there were more studies though. If they could explain some cases of the torture that is "unexplained" infertility, that would be A Good Thing. When I got my NK cells result, I felt like I had the answer for the mystery of why despite popping out eggs regularly, having clear tubes and Mr Euro producing swimmers, I still wasn't pregnant. Apparently not.

Nelly you do sound very busy at the moment. Enjoy your minibreak!

Heh@the nosy kitties.

Hurray, I'm out the tent! Pre ovulation hormones have kicked in and I'm feeling all positive and smiley . I'll try to spread some around.

euro that is wonderful about the smear. It's amazing to think the body can hold back an infection like that. I had a smear 18 months ago, over here we're supposed to get them every year. I've put it off because of ivf and thinking that is enough poking around. If I was in the UK, I wouldn't have been called back yet. Also, it's not a simple case of just going to the GP and getting a smear. You have to go to the gynae for an annual control which involves a smear but also a breast exam and lots of other checks, urine sample etc. Sometimes I wonder how anyone in the UK can survive without all these checks! When I say that people here say "that's why survival rates are so much better here" but actually I don't think that's true. They love their controls but I do wonder if there is clinical evidence for them. On a similar note, the clinic told us that I should get the flu vaccine, chicken pox vaccine and whooping cough vaccine before we start ivf. Has anyone else been told this?

buzzy and mellow because we have male factor I haven't considered the immune stuff at all. I know it's controversial, and not all doctors are convinced, but then it does seem to make the difference for some people.

joy that is good news that nothing untoward was found in the lap. Although I suppose it means you are no closer to an answer either. Are you onto ivf next? I'm impressed that you're running so soon afterwards. I think I'd still be curled up on the sofa feeling sorry for myself.

gin it sounds like your ovaries are gearing up for action. Tis so exciting.

I have had the week from hell at work, and it's only Tuesday. You know one of those weeks when you do everything wrong. It's not helped that my confidence seems to be really affected since this whole ttc malarky. I had to go to a meeting today and I was so totally unprepared and I'd been very badly briefed by my boss so I went in and felt like an idiot who didn't know what she was talking about. It was not helped that the woman chairing the meeting was sporting a very big bump.

I got an email today from a friend. In it she linked to her (get ready to boak) pregnancy blog. A blog! Why she thought I'd want to read it I have no idea. But I've tortured myself a little and had a bit of a read. It's boring and badly written and very smug. Also, she whinges a lot. Today's post was about how she has no clothes that fit her. Yesterday it was something about how she has no energy. Boring, boring, boring. I won't be reading it anymore.

Morning lovely ten-dwellers and not [hsmile]

I keep on having to apologise, I just don't manage to keep up. I keep on reading and never getting round to properly responding! So I am not sure I can now, as your my treat with brekkie.

YAY for ovaries doing their job gin. I really hope enough of them are at the right size at the right time. Much respect for all the other ladies well into their IVF-adventure! Massive YAY for your NK doing their job as well euro. I am so happy your smear cleared itself up, and impressed for your persistence at the path you chose.

You made me smile with your banana bread discussion, after I disappeared to entertain the ILs. Of course SB tried to sabotage it (by not taking it out of the oven before pre-heating it again) but all the same we've had lovely cake for dessert for the past few days. And th PILs were impressed as well. It is all gone now sadly.

As people picked up from my sporadic postings, life in the lemon house hold is much better. I am actually happy again, for the first time in about a year, I'd say. We're on a TTC break, but we still do the deed (afterall my Bond-name is Shagmore too, so clearly I am related to euro) and we had some catching up to do after a few weeks of diffedness and a few weeks of bleeding which somehow put a damper on my libido.

Anyway, big waves and loves at you all. I do read everything, but never have time to post at work, and have been having friends or insane exercise in the evenings!

lemon lovely to hear you're happy - and good so busy too!

mrsd so glad you're out of the tent. I hate that "I don't know what everyone in the meeting is talking about, did I miss the memo" feeling. And seriously - a blog!! FFS!

Here in SA, you go to the gynae for your smear as well - and they do the works. It is good to have preventative medicine - it is the weakest part of the NHS

WRT vaccines - flu and whooping cough - yes (and should be tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis combined for the whooping cough), chicken pox - not necessarily - do you know if you've had it before - worth getting your antibodies checked - if you haven't then it might be worthwhile. In the UK at the moment, they are offering flu and whooping cough to pregnant women fairly routinely. So getting it before IVF makes sense.

buzzy I believe you - and I completely understand - but it is the very fact that you and I and many other women will try practically anything to get pregnant that means that this should be regulated. I'm delighted to hear there's a steroid study - so there bloody well should be - people have been publishing suggestions about this since 1996 for goodness sake! Lets hope they find some useful results and can explain the unexplained.

There is also a study comparing outcomes from ICSI and IVF, Frozen and Fresh embryo's in Holland/Denmark (has to be multi-centre for numbers) - so hopefully that will also give some answers. The more research the better!

I'm pleased to hear you're feeling happier lemon. You've had an awful time, let's hope good news is just round the corner.

Mellow, I agree that there should be more research. Selfishly from my point of view, I'd like to see more into male factor, because there is a work around with icsi it seems like no one bothers to look for reasons or new solutions. There is so much that isn't understood.

I had chicken pox as a child, but not the vaccine so I've no idea if I have immunity. I had my rubella tested and I do have immunity to that. I think I'll try and get the whooping cough and flu done and I'll ask about chicken pox. Do you know if there is a period you have to wait after getting the vaccines to get pregnant? I assume as the whooping cough one and the flu are given to pregnant women, that is ok.

According to the nhs website, you should wait 3 months after getting the chicken pox vaccine before getting pregnant. It reckons 90% of adults in the uk are immune anyway so because I had it as a child, I'm going to conclude that I probably am immuneand wont get the vaccine. I can't wait another 3 months!

If you definitely had chicken pox as a child you shouldn't need the vaccine.
Influenza is an inactivated virus and DPT is killed vaccine so shouldn't need to wait after having them. You should have had DPT as a child and this should just be a booster - unless you didn't get all your vaccines as a youngster?

Varicella is live attenuated, so not recommended in pregnancy and would probably advise to wait a month (I think!)
Great that you're rubella immune too.

I think I had all the regular vaccines as a child, although I didn't have the MMR, just the separate vaccines. I had mumps as a child. I never de registered with my uk gp, I wonder if they would have my vaccination record? my mum is pretty hazy on this stuff.

Halloween Greetings from Moon Burrow [hgrin] tis one of my favourite days, for many reasons so decided it was time to emerge. This is the longest break I've had from MN since joining and last night I had a read along and have a lot to say to everyone but not time right now.

frannie woo hoo! Hope you are doing just fine and dandy, do update us all.

joy I proudly award you your lap medal of honour with an extra rosette for BREAKING INTO A RUN! So glad all was ok.

euro fantastic news re smear.

I have to dash. I have entirely replaced ttc with doing fun stuff and am on leave. Love you all and mega post imminent. I poke MN in the eye with a xx

Chipping in on the vaccine talk... They are giving the whooping cough vaccination to pregnant women from week 25 as there is an outbreak of whooping cough in the UK, which has killed 10 new borns this year . You can't vaccinate a new born, so the idea is that you give the vaccination to the pregnant lady in later stages of pregnancy and that she will pass the anti-bodies to the baby so that they will have some protection. Interestingly the leaflet that accompanies the vaccine says not to give to pregnant women but I think this is a rather serious outbreak and an emergency measure. And there have been no ill effects to date (although a lot of thalidomide type scaremongering on MN and many corners of the internet

The flu jab is rationed in the UK. But it's not a live virus so you can't get sick from it and you should be safe to TTC having had it. MrsD they are very, very thorough where you are aren't they! Boak at the blog too. She can't be feeling that bad if she's got time to blog. Honestly.

Euro so pleased to hear that you had a clear smear. That's ace.

Critter glad you are safe. It's so scary what's going on over there.

Artemis [hangry] at your clinic and their rubbishness. Still, only two more days to go. You are so brave with the needles. What a legend :)

Lemons glad you feel better.

Buzzy so glad that life coaching is a positive experience for you too. You sound so so so so so so so so so much happier.

nice to see you all by the way and glad that some of the 10+ers are out of the tent :) I come with Halloween treats for all [hbiscuit] [hbiscuit] [hgrin] especially to tempt out Rabbit and Pout

Big waves and hugs all 'round, especially to the IVF crew. I'm watching and hoping for all of you [hsmile] Sorry not to name check (I'm one of those moany people now as I'm suffering terribly at the moment. Mr Bucket is my new best friend. We have liaisons most mornings after crackers and grapes. Most smells make me vom - coffee, rubber gloves, food smells, Mr Ps dirty shirts, washing up liquid, red wine, broccoli, my pre-natal supplements... But I guess it's all good in the grand scheme of things. Problem is the hormones - mine are terrible - my [hangry] [hsad] [hconfused] [hangry] [hsad] [hgrin] pendulum is out of control at the moment, I went from hysterical sobbing to laughter in a few seconds the other day. I can't control it and I feel very very guilty for not being able to function, moaning, feeling terrible and trying to keep chipper...)

Anyway, enough from me. I'm verging on that terrible blog thing. Love and Halloween hugs to you all xx

mrsd the only immunity they seem to care about here is rubella. I was tested for it at the fertility clinic, although it was a bit pointless as there is no way I would have stopped ttcing for 3 months or whatever is required because it is a live vaccine. As another poster said, preggos are amongst the groups to whom the flu vaccine is offered and a few weeks ago there was a lot in the news about how whooping cough is on the rise here and whether the vaccine should be offered to pregnant women.

rabbit it's good to see you emerging from your burrow.

Princess sorry to hear about the vomming - that sounds pretty severe. My friend who gave birth this week was always slim but went down to the weight she had been aged 14 with the constant vomming in early preg. On the upside, I don't think she has any baby weight to lose!

I feel absolutely shattered at the moment. I am not sure why. There are loads of bugs going round so maybe one of them is sleeping sickness! I am really having to drag myself around the place.

Heart - thinking of you and really hoping it went ok this afternoon.

Well it's great to have an immunologist on our thread. Everything you say is really interesting MRsmellow. I thought one of the flawed things with the NK cell testing is that it only measures NK cells in the blood and not in the uterus and doesn't the uterus require NK cells?. I understand the need for there to be proper scientific studies on this. When you look at the successes on the pred thread and then look at clinics like argc and the lister who all treat women for immune issues - their results seem to be way ahead of other clinics that don't place any emphasis on immune testing. However, perhaps these clinics are just much more honed to the individual. Anyway to me there has to be something in it for all these women finally being able to get pregnant and stay pregnant but of course actually to have scientific facts and studies behind it would be good. What's more interesting to me is why people have high NK cells and if they truly are killing embryos, why is that happening. And then we get on to the bacterial infection considerations.

Princess - i am so sorry you are feeling hideous. All a good sign of course but I'm sure you can do without your head stuck in a bucket. Poor you. Is there anything you can take to try and alleviate the morning sickness?

Rabbit - i bow so you can slip the medal over my head. So pleased you are doing fun stuff. You have to let us know what of course!

Lemon - and i'm really pleased that you are so happy at the moment. You thoroughly deserve it after the shitty time you have had.

Mrsden - welcome out of the tent. I hope you are ok. Yes I'm on to ivf next. I have my appointment in a few weeks and will get all sorts of blood tests done. I still don't feel ready for it and want to give these antibiotics a shot at working plus post lap in case a miracle happens but i think i will be kidding myself. [hshock] at your friend's blog post. Each to their own i guess but I don't see why anyone would be interested. Sour grapes me? Well i'm not in to people's blogs anyway, not even infertility ones.

Artemis - goodness, I am sorry that you are suffering so much. I do think it's bad how they have kept you going like this for longer than necessary. Hopefully by the time you start stimming, things will have picked up.

Posting this and going on to the previous page.

Doll - you have lived an exciting life. Living in a tent in the tropics sounds pretty gung ho but obviously plagued by illness wasn't pleasant. Sorry about the mammogram scare.

Critter - i'm glad you are safe and well out there.

Gin - you are one heck of an egg producing machine. Not long to go now until EC.

Euro - my bush scar is small actually. I think i panicked and thought it was much bigger than it was.

I told Roy to take notes after my lap. Of course he didn't but he says he thought the nurse said if the tummy button stitches hadn't dissolved after a certain period then they would have to take them out. Does anyone know what that period is? It's all pretty sore and red down in that area and i think it's because the stitches have been rubbing on the buttons on my shirt.

Just went to get my lump removed but it turned out it was just a pre-op appointment with the surgeon. I've been nervous all day as well. Sigh. I'm not particularly bothered really.

Waves to everyone else.

Just quickly joycep I had my stitches removed (by the nurse at my GP's) about 10 days post-lap. The lower, bushy one, drove me insane, because it kept getting caught on my trousers. I really haven't seen it for ages now. It settled very quickly and happily afterwards.

Sorry about the bleeding stress heart. I really, really hope you're okay. Your post did bring back some unpleasant memories, as my first scan, was after bleeding at 6+4. Keeping everything crossed for you!

Yay for pukeprincess popping in. Sorry you've been so all over the place, but you sound very pregnant. How far along are you now?

The immune shizzle is all over my head. But if I had all my immunisations as a kid and had every childhood disease going (I am from a big family) I should be okay vaccine wise, right? And if I suffer with colds, I probably don't have a overactive immune system, right? Anyhow, after euro's woes with immunes, I am keen to stay away from steroids, at least until I get more desperate. Pets at the recurrent MC-ers. If I have more, I will investigate. For now I am thinking of it as bad luck.

I spotted lovely sar over the page and forgot what you said. I hope you're okay!

Yay for having useful life coaching buzzy. I feel the counselling has a bit to do with me feeling happier. Sadly, as always happens in the sour home, SB has taken over the miserableness for both of us. So he's now not happy. But also away with work, so I can chat at you lot and watch telly tonight I am skiving from my course, as I have a big day at work tomorrow and wanted to be able to go to bed on time

Hello to all the banana loafers! Thank you to Mellow and Joyce and Heart and everyone for reasuring me about biopsies and laps.

Mrs Mellow - good luck with IVF, sorry the ironic BFP didn't turn up. But every chance a BFP will be coming your way soon. My lap might be Januray but this is not confirmed yet.

Doll - best of luck with the stimming. The mammogram test results cock up is awful - how badly can health services get these things wrong!

Art - sorry you feel shabby - it is bound to be the drugs and the prolonged period you are downregging. I was very similar to you in that I had no bad side effects but felt drowsy and lousy. However, I do think you will better on stims, maybe just a little more rounded than usual.

Critter - glad you are ok and bonus that your dad gets to stay a bit longer.

Gin - wow 8 follies on such low doses is amazing. You are an egg machine. [hgrin]. I understand why you would want to keep your emtions low key. We know how up and down this can be and staying somewhere in the middle sounds wise. Will be thinking of you lots during the next few days. Oh, and don't worry, I am a lush too!!

Nelly - you are my hero - a wedding, upcoming IVF cycle and general life busyness - a weekend away sounds like a perfect idea.

Thank you to the ladies who have been discussing steroids, NK cell stuff, chicken pox stuff etc - without all of this knowledge, sharing and even a little debating I dount many of us would know half the things we do. Or have the confidence to challenge our dodgy Dr's.

Den - hooray for tent emergence. But boo to a bloody pregancy blog - how crapola. And sorry for the crappy work meeting too. I agree, sometimes all the bad stuff comes at once like the number 11 bus.

Princess - it sounds like you are having a rough ride at the moment and I really really don't mind if you moan - you have more than earned the right!!! You have a hard earned win and you have been nothing but supportive to all of us for many many months. I hope the sickness settles soon but I hope you continue to have many signs of a healthy pregnancy. xx

Euro - sorry to hear you are feeling under the weather - maybe you do have a bug. Can you have a 'cosy under the duvet, watching dvd's' weekend?

Lemons - hello, I am fine thanks. I was just mentalling over lap and biopsy stuff. My mind is always thinking about my fallopain tubes - how shitty is that. But no, I think if you have colds that would indicate you aren't overly immune but I am no expert on this topic. I would also agree (like my own situation) that one m/c should be considred as just bad luck at this stage. The frustrating thing for people like us is trying to get pregnant again to determine that this is the case. But onwards and upwards. You are an inspiration. It is wonderful to hear how well you are doing. Keep it up - I do believe it rubs off.

Rabbit - hello my deary, looking forward to hearing about all the fun stuff you have been up to!

Hello to Buzzy and anyone else I have missed.

heart hope the bleeding was nothing serious, fingers crossed for you

joy yes, one of the flaws of measuring NK cells in the blood is that it is not indicative of what is going on in the uterus - and yes NK cells are essential for protecting against infection entering across the mucus membrane that are in the vagina, most importantly around the cervix and then to a lesser extent the uterus - they shouldn't get past the cervix. There is a group here in SA that are looking at them in relation to HIV infection in women - basically if you get an STD, that causes inflammation and disrupts the balance, probably calling CD4 T cells to the site- which are then infected with HIV - so Chlamydia etc is a risk factor for HIV infection. One of the theories with recurrent miscarriage is that they detect a chromosomally abnormal embryo and contribute to miscarriage, then get confused with future normal embryo's and lead to them inadvertently being miscarried - so the steroids should prevent this. It is not an implausible idea - and as I said, I think that steroids may be important for a group of women.

On a different note - I didn't get my stitches removed, they eventually disappeared ( I assume in the shower, I didn't pay attention ) but within 10 days anyway. The belly button scar was irritated by the top of my trousers - I put some bio-oil on it and wore dresses...it is completely healed now and looks fine!

princess sorry to hear about the terrible nausea, fingers crossed it is as good a sign as rumoured and that it doesn't last too far into your pregnancy.

euro difficult time of the year with darkening evenings and cold season starting - vitamin C and D and zinc and some sleep and a hot whiskey
hope you feel better soon

Heart - ooo sweetheart. Sorry to hear the spotting started up again. These are worrying times and I wish I could take all the worry away because you simply don't deserve it. Let us know how you got on at the scan. Take care hon. xx

Joyce - sorry to hear the leg lump session was an anti climax - but I think you have the right attitude. Hope those pesky stitches settle down soon. Are you allowed to have a bath or shower after a lap? Well done on gaining your lap of honour medal. I hope to join you in the lap wall of fame soon.

Evening all. I'm back from newborn cuddles. No name baby is gorgeous. We played pass the parcel with him and he didn't murmur. Mr Euro looked gorgeous holding him...

That's about all I have energy for now. I really do feel wiped out. Perhaps I am coming down with somthing.

joy it depends on who does your immune testing to how they test your nk cells, Prof Q is very different to Shehata and Gorgy, Idon't think most women care as to why it has happened they just want to make sure it doesn't happen again

heart thinking of you, big hugs