TTC for 10+ months, part 9

[akuabadoll]

Ladies, number 9. The lucky one.

Pout really sorry that TTC is driving a wedge between you and Mr P. I echo lemons sentiment that you are funny, wonderful and refreshingly honest. I mean who else could make us all giggle over Le Pout Dave and the trademarked pile. I'm sure it's all these qualities that make Mr Pout love you very much and he is probably struggling seeing you so down and maybe, like Mr P, he doesn't care if he has babies because he has you. Yes, difficult to swallow but bloody flattering in another sense. But you've only had one help of assistance and from your results you don't even sound like you need any help, so it's going to happen for you soon.

In amongst packing I've come up with the following plan:

1. Go to appointment at hospital in mid September and ask the questions discussed previously. Lucky me, that OV day is the day of the meet with the consultant. If he doesn't refer me for HSG, we will do this privately.
2. If no BFP in October further to this cycle, book in to get a second non NHS opinion / HSG / more advanced sperm test
3. If still unexplained in October further to these tests give it another 3 cycles naturally
4. If no BFP by Jan 2013, go to have IVF. I'm fairly drawn to Create because of the natural approach and because it would seem to be a bit cheaper too. I think that we will be able to save up to do this by January.

Now, whose up for a meet? We haven't discussed this for a while. I'm thinking early October? I think I can only realistically manage a London meet at this point but I would absolutely bloody love to meet some of the Northerners at some point too. PM me if you are interested and we can start to sort this out.

xx

pout I am completely with you - stable weight since my 20s but somehow this seems to be different. Meh. Fat AND barren. What a brilliant combo.

Princess I would be up for another London meet. The last one was fun! Early Oct should work for me.

This thread is moving so fast just now.

Firstly I wanted to say I was very sorry if I upset some of you ( artemis and pout amongst others) with what I said about MrN and I being closer as a result of this. You don?t need to have very long memories to remember how we were having terrible fights not so long ago. Undoubtedly it was largely TTC driven. There was (and probably still is) a lot inside me shame no eggs that I was bottling up. And MrN was as bad as all the guys for seeming disinterested. I first went to the GP last June. MrN did come with me, but he had little choice really. It took him about 6 months to finally get round to doing his second SA, and we couldn?t get a referral until that point. I think he?s only on board now having been to the IVF clinic, and I guess it helps that when we were visiting my sister in May we all 4 of us talked a bit about IVF. Sis had a bad time with the drugs etc so I think has scared MrN and me a bit. And then of course there was Meltdown day, otherwise known as the AMH disaster. I phoned MrN from my office, inconsolable. He could hardly understand me, and at that point I think it dawned on him just what was happening here. I?ve also not been able to keep things shut up any more, it?s like the floodgates have opened. But frankly we were starting from a very low baseline, we were very poor communicators beforehand. And I share the indescribable rage about the delays to TTC. But for the sake of my future marriage, I just will not let those thoughts in. It will be very interesting to see what comes out in my fertility hypno though. So long and short ? we?ve had to go through one of the worst experiences of my life to suddenly feel closer; and I mean only the AMH, the rest of it was just a mild version of bother up to now. So please please don?t think there is some magic loved up formula here. Up until recently, I?d have shared all of your frustrations, and I don?t wish my latest pit of doom on any of you. You will be fine, we all will, but this is hard as nails stuff we are dealing with, nobody finds this a walk in the park. We?re going to go for IVF counselling, but I think even without that I?d have been finding a way for us to talk a little bit more. Writing things down seems to be a good suggestion ? sometimes I?ve had to say something to MrN on email because I thought if I said it face to face it would either make me cringe or cry.

It was lovely to see you briefly minipie, how far along are you now? And frannie hope all is as well as can be expected with your nephew, much love.

buzzy I know what you mean about preparing for it not working. I am trying so hard to get the balance right. As my friend said a few weeks ago, no point doing it if you are going to be all negative. BUT I still can?t imagine what it would be like to be living the ladygee and lemon dream (I so so so understood the comment about expecting to wake up any moment lemon). I just don?t have an expectation of being that lucky. I am hoping my hypno and woo and whatnot will help change that.

euro that will not have been your only chance. You?ll get your baby. I know it. And I very much doubt you are fat (or barren!) :)

Re the cost of treatment artemis I am beginning to think I?m being generally fleeced. My clinic charges around £700 for an HSG which is rather a lot more than I've seen elsewhere .

gin I hope your fur baby is better soon, I understand the sick to the stomach worry. And bitch indeed to your cousin stealing a name. I had a couple lurking in the back of my mind, which haven?t been selected by family. But frankly these days it?s another thing I refuse to let in. Too painful to even contemplate. If I name my children, I think I?ll miss them even more when they don?t arrive.

I am sorry about being blindsided with the preg announcement mrsden. God I hate them. We are off to a wedding abroad next weekend, and I have been probing MrN about who is going. I am expecting there to be at least one announcement. Meh.

As you might be able to tell, I?m still feeling really negative today. Doubting if there is any point with any of the minor lifestyle tweaks and woo. Not helped by reading on the Create website that Natural IVF has helped ?several? woman with an AMH below 1 to get pregnant. Several? SEVERAL? What the FUCK does that mean? 5? 10? I knew the odds weren?t looking in my favour right now, but suddenly it?s looking insurmountable. And I?ve discovered the wait list for donor eggs in the UK is 2 years. Fuxake.

Anyway I will post this now as I fear it makes little sense anyway then come back and edit when I realise it?s all shite!

Aww thank you lemons and princess for your kindness. I'm sorry for offloading but I was just so relieved to read what artemis had written that it all kind of spilled out! I have spent weeks telling MrP how everybody else is closer because of the TTC shit except us! BTW lemons of course I want to kiss you as much as I do artemis
What you said about waking up in the night smiling was so sweet and warmed my jaded heart

princess Your plan sounds sensible. It's scary isn't it setting deadlines though. I realised last night that I have one more cycle until my birthday and how I really don't want another barren birthday.

nelly oh hugs to you, why does TTC knowledge only make us more miserable and not empowered? Did you see the thread in the Infertility section asking for donor eggs a couple of months ago. It got replies. Just saying.

Just popping in quickly to say nellie the create website is shite as is their admin! Be warned.., the open days are v good though and you get 5 mins with the consultant.

princess Yay, a meet up! Early oct would be great for me too. I'm not entirely sure if I had the fertility mot, but did have their full fertility scan. It involved a good old look at the womb, antral fol count, blood flow measurement etc etc via dildo cam, using colour doplar Mr gin had all his tests on the NHS. I don't know if my scan was the same as a NHS one?

I have to meet friends tonight whilst mr gin is at the vets. Fingers crossed. Luffs to all.

Thanks gin FX for your fur baby. The MOT includes the fertility scan; not the same as the NHS fanny cam. I think we may go and have a look around in mid-October. Their open day happens to be on the day we met all those years ago. Funny times

gin - i forgot to say i'm sorry about your poor fur baby. I hope (s)he gets better very soon.

princess - i haven't had a hycosy and i'm never quite sure of the difference between all these things. There is an aquascan as well which is suppose to be quite good but again I'm not sure what the difference is. at mrP's drainage system antics. oh and if you need ivf, i'll eat my hat. ooh and yes to a meet up again. that was fun.

mrsd - thanks for your explanation on the brown stuff. I think it's normal and that tcoyf is just as good at scaring me as all sorts of other things.

artemis - i think just booking is a good idea. Stats of course are helpful but don't get too bogged down if it means preventing from booking. I've been umping and arring for a year about whether to do get my immunes tested. Also I kind of believe in the Chinese version of that's how AF is suppose to be as that is how it was for me when i was younger. But it doesn't really take in to affect age as things in our 30s are unlikely to be the same as our 20s.

pout - i am sorry about how this is affecting you and your mrP. This is one of the most stressful things a couple can possibly go through and when we pick our men, we have no idea how they might behave in tricky times. I wonder if there is any way you can get through to him that you need more emotional support?counselling perhaps? or perhaps a spot of hypo to try and help with the anger towards MrP for delaying ttc. I can see how you would incandescent with rage. I know it took my colleague 4 years to persuade her partner to try for a baby by which time she was 37. It then took her 2 years to conceive and she felt pretty angry towards him and now she has had her baby, her partner is thrilled to be a father. He is nearly 50 for goodness sake and it actually took the baby's arrival before he got on board. Not sure this is a helpful story but it shows how many women are left to fight their own battles.
Anyway for what it's worth, I don't feel closer to MrJ. I kind of have taken this on as my own battle and see him as the sperm donor who hopefully will rock up to deposit sperm for ivf. I know this isn't how it should be. But He's terribly stressed at work, he has family problems and he admitted he's not very happy at the moment so I have tried to keep a lid on showing him how distressed I am about everything. It's not an easy journey Poutster but when you finally get that bfp, I'm sure you will be both stronger for it.

nelly - your comment about not having an expectation of being that lucky to get a bfp really resonates. In my head, I believe it happens to other people. I know i had a bfp once before but as it ended at 7 wks, i have no hope or belief that I could ever get beyond that or that my body could grow a baby. I am not sure whether it's a sixth sense, a self defence preparation mechanism or just a negative imagination. Anyway, sorry that you're still feeling down. That's not helpful to hear about Create's success with 'several' people with low AMH. I actually have a fear of the word AMH...I shiver whenever I see it. Do you find that?

Just popping in to reassure Nelly you didn't upset me! I remember the meltdown and stress you've been through even before the AMH so I certainly didn't imagine it was all rosy at Casa Nelly. i don't think stress of this magnitude can magically bring couples closer except through lots of talking as Lemon says, which is something me and Mr A are not good at. I'm a bottler and he's a live for today, don't think about the future type which put together doesn't make for productive heart to hearts. I really appreciate your account of what happened, it gives me hope that the problems I am having are not insurmountable.

I think for us the stress of TTC shines a big light into all the dark corners of our relationship and the pre-existing strains we try to ignore. Some of that is my own negative state of mind dwelling on the difficult aspects and projecting them forward in doomsday scenarios of my own making. I don't want to make Mr A sound like a horrible insensitive person because I wouldn't be with him if he was. Much of the time he is lovely. But he is really crap at facing up to serious issues and he would rather live in a la-la land in which everything is somehow going to be OK. When I'm feeling low i can dwell on the fact that we split up for a while about 6 months after moving in together because Mr A suddenly backpedalled on the whole relationship - after discussing marriage, children, buying a house etc he seemed to change his mind almost overnight. It was devastating. We got back together eventually and things have been stable and positive for the last couple of years, but it still feels as though there is a fault line and I can't quite put out of my mind that if he wobbled once, he could do it again. When I am feeling low about it those feelings get out of hand and obscure the reality. And i do blame him for us being too late for this TTC lark however much I try not to. I need to find a way to get over that as blame seems like a fairly toxic emotion to be feeling right now.

Anyway that's a big irrelevant ramble but I wonder Pout if there is something about what is probably a normal male reaction (avoiding anything emotional) seeming so much bigger when you're feeling down? Sometimes the things i react to could just be a clumsy attempt to reassure me. I also think there is something in what Nelly says about needing to get to the point of it being real before men can really get their heads around it. At the moment IVF is just an idea. Though it bugs me that Mr A is capable of talking random people at work about us TTC but he doesn't want to talk to me

Princess I like the sound of your plan. I didn't make the call today, panicking over stupid stats, but i will ring next week and see what the deal is. Nelly those costs sound high to me, though I'm no expert. I looked up the cost of an HSG near here and it was £350, though that was an out of date price list and I don't know if it was an inclusive figure or not.

Princess I might make a London meet if I can get a sensibly priced train. I have to go there for meetings, don't see why I shouldn't travel down to meet up with people I like

Kisses to everyone that wants them . Especially Gin's poor fur baby. No tongues, though. Except maybe for Lemon, in case there's a chance that some of that diffedness might rub off

Shiver joy? I practically want to throw up! Never mind wanting to turn the clock back 10 years, I just wish I could turn it back to the day I agreed to have the flipping test. But I have just read this:

Actually, if you are trying to get pregnant naturally, ovarian reserve doesn?t matter too much. After all, up until menopause, your body will generally find 1 egg a month from the pool to mature and ovulate. I?m not saying ovarian reserve doesn?t matter with natural cycles at all, but, we have all seen natural conceptions in women who have very low reserves.

But of course it's not what sticks in my head. I talked to my friend yesterday at work that had (successful) IVF and she said try to look at it like at least now you can be fully prepared for what's ahead. And that it's forcing me into taking this a lot more seriously, such as cutting out booze almost completely, doing the Woo etc. So at the very least I know I've done everything I can for my cycle.

I also know what you mean about 6th sense vs self defence. I don't feel lucky. Every so often I have this daydream about my "fuck you, miserable twat doctor" conversation when I get pregnant despite his gloomy view. But it feels insane, so distanced from reality.

I'm still also very confused. I have also just read that ovulating on day 12 (which I do) is very good, a sign of good eggs. And that high progesterone (ie my 55 result when I had it tested) is a very very good sign of quality eggs. And the above about egg reserves not mattering when TTC naturally. So I've been analysing MrN's sperm results, but they really do look fine. I'll post them here in case anyone can comment. He had two, so I'll put 1st then second results:

Vol 3.2ml/2.5ml
Prog Motility 61%/44%
Non prog motility 5%/8%
Immotile 34%/48%
Total motility 66%/52%
Sperm concentration 64M/ml/111M/ml
Total count 205M/278M
Total Motile 135M/144M
Normal morphology 7%/7%
Round Cells 1M/ml/4M/ml

Certainly all within normal ranges and although the results on motility and volume dropped in second sample, the concentration increased.

pout yes I saw that thread. I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse - worse in as much as I hadn't made it over to that board before! Maybe we could do a swap on here? One of you lovelies can donate some eggs to me, and in return you could have some of MrN's swimmers (for those that have male factor ishoos obviously, I'm not suggesting you replace perfectly good sperm with MrN - he's not that lovely ).

Depending on timings of my IVF cycle, I might try to make a London meet up. If this one fails I could couple it with going to Create or ARGC to talk to them about options. But of course if it's right after the inevitable BFN I'm not sure I'd burden you all with my miserable self.

I did chuckle at something today though. The postman arrived with our mail and rang the buzzer. As he handed over the parcel that was too big for the postbox, it was a square box that rattled very tellingly. It was all my drugs, I've no idea what kind of drugs he thought they might be! It did have cat medicines etc in it too though, which made the box look bigger than it maybe should have.

Oh yes and we went to see Ted last night. It was quite funny, not as much as Bridesmaids though. But there was one part that was sort of hilarious, sort of awful. The bear says something about guessing a girl's name "it's totally White Trailer Park trash". And pretty much the first name Mark W came out with was mine in RL . MrN was rolling about laughing, the git .

Sorry for all the frustrations this evening. I'm sorry to Pout and Artemis about the strain on your realtionships. I guess it gives you another thing to feel stressed about. From what I have gathered your chaps do seem like essentially good guys who have very male outlooks and are not really good at stepping in to and staying in the emotional zone. I don't have any wise words - to be honest Mr Sar is more emotionally tunned in than I am. But there are some occasions when he can be stressed if he is overwhelmed by other stuff (ironically TTC stuff doesn't stress him). In these instances, I insist that we schedule in 'meetings' once a week. God - I sound like a saddo but it really helps him feel on top of stuff.

Mr Sar doesn't have an issue expressing his feelings or comunicating but he can get 'overloaded' so this structure works well for us. Basically I sometimes put sunday evening on the calendar as 'talk time'. I usually try to make sure we have a nice tea before and have some wine during. Then we make lists of stuff (usually work / money / house etc) and talk through stuff. Sometimes nothing actually changes in terms of the dilema but DH gets some release by seeing the problems discussed agenda style. This system appeals to the male single tasking brain. Not sure if your chaps would be up for that? Maybe you could agree with them a time each week when TTC stuff / worries are discussed which they need to commit to. In return, they know TTC worries aren't going to be launched on them at any time (AMH type results exceptions are allowed). Please don't feel you have to follow my suggestions or reply - but you both seem so frsutrated I wanted to put some ideas forward.

Hope you don't mind but just asked Mr Sar for some ideas from a male perspective too. He suggests shock tactics. He says it isn't usually possible to change someones characteristics. He also said, "don't try and fight nature, men will never be as eager for a baby (usually) as the woman". But what could you say or do to show the level of hurt you have? Not saying threaten to leave but could you draw a comparison with something else in you personal lives which was awful and painful to help him to see how high up the rictar scale this stuff really is?"

Please feel free to ignore Mr & Mrs Sar!!!!!!!

Euro - the weight gain thing seems unfair and odd. I second what others have said about thyroid testing. If it is the IVF drugs, I think it takes about 3 months for the body to truly settle afterwards. But I understand the annoyance that goes along with this.

Heart - hello my dear. Sorry you are on here but so glad you came to join us. I'm not just saying this but I was thinking of you recently and wondered about PM ing you again. I am having MAYA masage at the moment. Supposed to be good for people with endo / structural / tubal problems. Not sure if you are in to woo stuff but so far I have been impressed with this. Because I have been on holiday, not sure where you are up to. Would you mind giving me a quick update?

Artemis - yes have had my second maya massage. I do enjoy it and have noticed some mild changes. My solar plexis area has softened which is supposed to mean anxieties are relased - I do think this has helped. My cervix seems to feel more central during ovulation time. And generally feeling quite positive about this massage. I like doing the castor oil pack (oil on belly with towel and clinc film wrap) as it makes me feel I am helping to clear my tubes. I WOULD recommend it.

All the woo people I have met have also said brown sludge, clots etc mean the womb is not cleansing effectivly. Their theory is that if blood isn't easy to expel, then possibly not all the blood gets expelled. Then the following month any potential embryo can't implant as the womb linning has some manky old material lying about. Not sure I think every woman with spotting / sludge can't get pregnant. If that were true, nobody would be preggers.......But I have to admit after my first maya massage I got loads of brown sludge during the next period. This was not normal for me. As my womb is tilted over to the left, my maya lady thinks that the left corner of my womb is crumpled up and collecting blood rather than letting go as it can't contract well. So in thoery my brown sludge could be old left hand corner blood finally making its way out. Plus I had left sided crampy pains after the the massages. At then end of the day, I'm not pregnant (yet ) so I am not going to say all of this is correct and gospel. But for the time being, I do feel this is doing me some good.

Princess - I too have a tilted womb. It is tilted to the left and a bit forward I think. I am having Maya massage (see above) but also for the blocked tubes too. The other interesting thing about tilted wombs which I had not considered before is that the womb may pull the fallopian tubes out of position and this can mean that they can't collect an egglett from the ovaries as well as they should. Again, not saying this is all definatly true but 'out of sorts' anatomy is something I can get my head around as a contributory factor.

Hello to everyone else.

artemis it's scary how similar we are! MrN and I split up seriously at one relatively early point in our relationship, though we had thought it was pretty serious up till then. And we have historically also been rubbish at communicating. But I do agree that the blame for not TTC is not healthy. It's understandable, but something you have to try to work through. My work offer some counselling sessions for free, might be worth finding a way to talk this through, alone at first then with MrA if that feels right?

I need to go off and see my hobbles but think I'm going to have another bath/escapist book session tonight.

Just to share that MrN can still be very much a twat. Shared with him that I'd been interrogating reading his SA results just to see if we'd missed anything. He said he felt invaded. I paused for a suitable amount of time then just said "you won't get any sympathy from me. That's not an invasion". Twat.

I had a nice bath, read for an hour which was suitably distracting but thought about TTC again the minute I got out. Did chuckle when the extra furry fur baby jumped on the side a but too enthusiastically, and slid slow-mo into the bath. I lunged for her just as her back leg went in. she just popped back onto the floor again and looked a bit confused, tossed her head and ran out. She's a bit odd

man this thread has been busy today :)

lemon thank you I like the sound of the golden tent, I did have brown spotting at the beginning of my second pregnancy and it was fine

artemis I just think she felt awkward which is why she didn't respond earlier (maybe she didn't see it until this week) I did respond otherwise I look like I'm a bitter barren cow. It does feel awkward. I'm sorry Mr A isn't on board, it took Mr B at least 15 months of me shrieking like a loon at him, massive hissy fits, throwing things about to get to where we are and I had moments when I wondered where our marriage was going, he surprised me the other day when he said he would come and meet Mr Gafar to discuss ICSI, I really was shocked, I told him I could go on my own but it might be useful for him to be there. Letter writing is good, many years ago when I was married to the first Mr B and we were having problems I read 'men are from mars and women are from venus' it was quite good and they recommend writing letter.

gin I hope your fur baby is ok, sorry you still feel low, not sure what to suggest re your hair :(

princess sorry your start to the day wasn't great, interesting about the banana skins, I inherited a fur baby and she was very fussy indeed but was in love with one of my other kind of fur babies and they would go everywhere together. I know what you mean about feeling like its your 'fault' that is how I feel, especially after my diagnoses of high nk cells.

mrsd so sorry for the preggo announcement, its shit isn't it, big hugs

nelly I went to counselling today and told her had a good bitch about my so called helpful colleagues, she totally understands my fears and that I should feel positive about it working but that I have to prepare myself for the worse. I can't remember the last time I felt positive about anything, hope you had fun with the hobbles. Nelly I'm more than happy to donate my eggs, (especially to you), but I'm ancient and they won't let me, Mr B mentioned it after he read it in the paper that we could get free IVF for eggs. I had to tell him that we are too old!!! Oh and the SA stats look good to me :)

pout super big hugs to you

sar does it have to be castor oil, what does the towel do?? Do you put it under or over the clingfilm???

on the blood thing, mine varies from month to month, sometimes it bright fresh blood and others is clotty and dark and sometimes brown and sludgy, my acu guy said that it should be bright red blood That was what the acu was supposed to do, but it didn't - although my migraines are far and few between
Mr S said as long as long as you have AF it doesn't matter on what it look like or how long. Have to admit I've never read TCOYF.
So went to counselling, oh how I had missed her, she went on annual leave, she totally gets it and is so supportive, had a good cry, I wish I could stop. Anyway we're off to Dorset tomorrow so I better get myself organised.
I'm also keen for a meet up :)

Waves and big hugs to everyone

Morning lovelies!

First of Nelly those results look excellent to me. (My DH had similar motility but a small volume of 1-1.5ml and quantity after IUI washing which leaves only good stuff of 4-15mil, unwashed 15-25million/ml, but as there is generally only 1ml, I am in awe of those numbers; also he had a significant percentage with morphology issues - maybe we are mild male factor after all). I also read that ovulation on day 12-13 is best (and I do that, so stored the knowledge as reassurance. It sounds like the eggs you have hanging around are excellent quality. And with mild IVF you won't be trying to get loads of them. Also about fur babies sliding into the bath with you by accident.

How was the fur-baby's vet appointment gin?

As to TTC and relationships, I think the mr and mrssar combo have some good suggestions. The reasons DH and I are so talky, is that whilst I did my time in single-wilderness, DH was in a very unhappy and disfunctional relationship. When we met, he had just come out of that one and he was determined not to leave stuff to stew the way they had been doing. So from very early on, he has made the effort to talk to me (and to poke me with a stick, because initially I definitely was the bear in our relationship). So we are very used to talk about us (and in the beginning it was just us discussing how fab we were together, but some serious issues have passed since). The habit of going down the pub and talking for hours about us, jobs, etc helped when deciding to TTC and dealing with the troubles.
Also before my DH sounds gay, or you think everything was always hunkydory in the lemon household, he needs time and not discussion to deal with his feelings associated with TTC. I found that very difficult, so it took a while to get to the stage where I knew to leave him to figure stuff out for himself, because afterwards he does talk again.
The other thing I have found really helpful is to agree to talk about it some of the time and not engage with it other times. We tried to conciously incorporate fun stuff for the pair of us to do - really as a couple - that has nothing to do with all the TTC woes. For instance, we've done a cookery course :) and much travelling, weekends away etc. Also, randomly going out for dinner (and agreeing not too much discussion of the baby lack) etc. But it does require the other half to understand your pain and the challenge it is to force yourself to have fun.

Just snogging artemis and pout on the way out (apologies for the length of this essay), and MrLemon thinks HCG is catching that is his excuse for loud farting, because like after the trigger shots, I am suffering this HCG induced side effect Waves and good days to all of you. Early Oct is a really busy time for me :(

Yay to lots of interest for the meet up :) I was thinking early Oct after work one night however if we have peeps from ooop naarth coming down to Laaanden then maybe a weekend would be better in which case there are only a couple I can do in October - although I could combine with my planned trip to Create (nelly we could always be Create buddies for the day, tho I doubt you will come because you will have framed your BFP and have it hanging about the fireplace by then . I will PM those interested so far about dates to see if we can pin something down.

Joy I hope you don't have to eat your hat so to speak, but it's been such a long time now that even if I don't need IVF I can't bare to go into 2013 'not pregnant'

Buzzy enjoy your trip to Dorset and think of me lugging boxes all weekend in the rain (although I have ordered a sack truck and will only go near light ones. It will be 4 DPO here don't you know!) Oh and Gin has a different fur baby to most of you, and I don't think the more popular (cats) will eat banana skin.

Lemon your DH doesn't sound gay, Sar I like your approach of an official meeting (I may start leaving official memos out in the morning) and for those having boy troubles Nelly Artemis and Pout - men are just weird creatures and deal with shit in random ways. This is the only conclusion I have on this matter. I hope that you all get what you want out of your other half's soon. I sat Mr P down with a really scrum dinner last night (steamed trout with giner, puy lentils, avocado, spring onion and cucumber salad with a special lime honey dressing) and asked if it was ok to go over my revised fertility plan. He said, "yep, go ahead" and I explained to him the plan, to which he said, "sounds good, I'll do whatever you want" and then continued eating and watching telly. No mention of how we might save up together to pay for this, the implications of anything, whether he objected to going to a masterbatoreum (he did look slightly alarmed when I told him he would have to produce a sample there and then - oh because it's so terrible to just have to wank to be checked out; no dear they're not going to shove a camera up your genitals and have a good old poke around) Slight although there is the possibility for much manipulation here. If all I have to do is tell him something whilst he has delicious gingery fish in his mush whilst watching telly, there will be a lot less arguments chez Princess

Lemon at loud HCG farting. I hope that's not a pregnant lady complaint already

Muddy at your fur baby jumping / sliding in the bath with you! I also at your mentioning of a twat doctor. Because he is in both senses. Very funny! But also sorry that he is an actual fanny.

Sar I am intrigued by Maya massage but when I showed DH he was very skeptical and said that woo people shouldn't be rubbing and re-positioning your inards and it did make me think. But I totally get why you are doing it and am still interested. I'm more nervous of the women who does it down here - she is quite a long way a way and has pictures of her frolicking in the woods I'm sure she's lovely. I just don't think it's for me. But, well, my mind has changed on many other things over the past 3.25 years....... And it does sound like it is working for you too.

Artemis I have decided to ignore the stats. I had a good think about this yesterday when I was comparing our local clinic to the clinics in London. I think I would prefer to look at approach and go to open days and get a feel for somewhere. I think I will be the same with schools for my children if they ever bloody arrive I'm not such a massive fan of league tables. I know this sounds stupid. We will be living in a village with a primary school that has an outstanding ofsted review, which is great but to get your child in, even if they have been born in the catchment area, you allegedly have to go to church every Sunday for the first 5 years of their life (vicar takes a register) and have them christened in the local church. I would feel very uncomfortable with this because I feel it's a state school and local children should go to their local school. I am an ardent atheist and therefore I don't want to go to church or have my child christened. I don't disrespect religious people and find their belief and faiths interesting. It just doesn't float my boat and doesn't sit with my up-bringing. Also, I think weekends will be precious family time and not for spending with other people who don't necessarily believe in God and are happy to go there to get their kids into a school. I would rather have 5 years of Sunday's and then drive my children if they ever turn up to one of the other village schools. However, my friend who is a teacher has said that schools have to let in 'other' religions even if they are church schools. So maybe I will have my cake and eat it. (or petition our local MP about the matter and butter him up a bit.....) Woah, I'm not actually sure where that came from or what point I'm trying to make. Actually, maybe that it doesn't matter what the tables say some people will succeed wherever you put them and other fail. my kids could fail at church school for being mini Dawkin-esque precocious little fuckers when all the other angels get key stage 6 by age 4 or whatever I think IVF will be the same and you can't possibly know everyone's unique situation who stepped through those doors. I think you should book in anyway. Sorry. I'm not sure if I shoudl have deleted all of that?!

Gin how is fur baby?

Right, I have a problem to sort out at work and then I'm back to finalising my boxes and packing all the small random items that don't have a home. Where do they come from?

Waves and love for all xx

Artemis - mrjoy talks to other people about ttc more than he talks to me. I wonder why men are like that

ooh might have to get in on the snogging action from Lemons to grab some of that diffedness. Talking about AF yesterday on here has brought mine on and i had quite bad itchy thrush yesterday so perhaps . It's early again. gah. At least I didn't get moody this month.

nelly - i like that little paragraph you posted. Have re read it a couple of times. I have never heard that ovulating on day 12 is the optimum day. I always thought it was more to do with LP length. Someone who has a 30 day cycle is unlikely to ovulate on day 12. How long is your cycle? Anyway, as my cycle length is about 26 days , I really should be ovulating around day 12 instead it is around day 16 which is obviously shit. The more i think about things, the more i realise my body is not doing things as it should! oh and Mr Nelly's sperms look pretty good.

Sarlat - i didn't want to do any more woo stuff but found myself looking up Maya fertility massage. There seems to be only one in central london?and a stone's throw from my office. argh?.is that a sign or should i just save my pennies?!

Buzzy - i am glad you found counselling helpful. have a lovely time in Dorset.

Lemons - if it was mild factor male issues, then that would explain why IUI worked for you. All your bloods seemed to be excellent with a great reserve so perhaps that was the issue all along.

Had dinner with a bunch of friends last night, one of them is heavily pregnant. Considering AF showed up today, I was surprisingly fine with her pregnancy. I didn't feel an ounce of jealousy. talking all night about the excitements of her having a baby didn't bother me. I wonder whether this is progress or some temporary hormonal balance thing. Perhaps it helped she was the only one there who was pregnant so if others had kids or were expecting, perhaps it would have been too much.

Me again, I've sent out PMs (messages rather than the syndrome - that would not be nice) for the October London meet. If I've missed you off or you've said you are interested and you haven't received the message, don't take it personally I've either been slapdash or spelt your name wrong - either way let me know and I'll forward you a copy of the message :)

Argh, about to hit send and interrupted by text message beep, you guessed it, and another freaking pregnancy announcement. Baby due in May. They're not even married so it's completely out of the blue. That's 3 close friend all due together. Fucking hell. I'm not crying, I'm going to be zen......

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH [ANGRY] fuck you fertility gods. Fuck you all.

Hi all,

sorry I've missed loads, I'm in the marquee... except I upgraded it to a circus tent and feel like a clown standing in the middle being laughed at by the universe. And then they send in the lions...
This has just been such an odd period and I think I managed to persuade myself that it might be because I was pregnant (ha fucking ha)..I developed breast tenderness, was really only having a teeny tiny bit of brown sludge and was building up for testing on Sunday. Then yesterday evening I was in the emotional doldrums, had terrible cramps and today have heavy bleeding and clots. Bastards. And I feel like I talked myself into the hope/despair cycle. FOOL!

I'm really struggling and hate feeling sorry for myself - I'm in S Africa, surrounded by destitute families, starving, malnourished, plagued by HIV, unemployment, living in corrugated iron shacks and I'm so lucky in comparison and yet complaining and I feel so fucking ungrateful. And that just makes me sadder. It doesn't help me get perspective, it just makes me feel guilty AND sad.

arggh... sorry, me, me, me, how rude!

It is interesting to read about the effect on relationships - it is so tough. We do a bit of lemon tactics - go out for a drink/dinner specifically to talk about things with an agenda. I'm definitely the bear in our house and really have to make an effort to say things out loud. DH has a 12 yr old son and really wants kids so is very involved - I'm very lucky that way (he wanted 6, I negotiated down to 3... he may have to settle for a different number altogether). Now, the conversations about the step-son and other difficulties, not so easy - but we do something that is useful - take an object (i.e. bottle of wine) and whoever is holding the object talks - the other has to listen and not interrupt until the first person is finished -then hand over the object and listen themselves. It just makes you really listen properly I think. But personally I vote for a letter. What I do is write an email - I don't often send it, just writing it down helps me to work out what it is I need to say and then it is easier to say somehow.

Just going away to google maya massage, acupuncture etc... clearly need to do something. At least I have laparoscopy booked for next week.

I too get brown sludge every month... nice! will start blaming that!
Sorry for lack of personal responses and selfish post. But I do feel better for writing it down, thanks ladies if you read to the end

Sorry, xposted with princess - fuck them all!!!

I'm sorry that af rocked up joy. How long are your cycles? I'd never heard of the day 12 thing nelly, my cycles are 30ish days so I usually ovulate between days 14 and 16. Whats so good about day 12?

That sounds like progress joy if you're able to enjoy a night out with a pregnant friend. One of my friends is due today and I'm actually quite excited to hear what she has, what name etc. no doubt shell go 2 weeks over.

Lemons, so glad you haven't deserted us yet. Do you think the hsg had anything to do with it? It just shows that iui does work.

Pout, please don't think that me and mr d have had a blissful couple of years. It has been hellish in many ways. We've argued more than we e er have. But I'm a firm believer in what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and I do think that we've learnt so much about each other. I e had to face up to the fact that me and dh approach things very differently. I sometimes interpret this to mean he doesn't care but I've learnt he is able to not think about it and put it out his mind. I've learnt the following things about him:

1. He doesn't have a biological clock and thinks we have all the time in the world. The time it's taking is not an issue to him, 2 years doesn't seem like a long time, he's perfectly happy to wait for test results whereas I'm so inpatient and pulling my hair out.
2. He doesn't do woo. If its not from a medically trained dr, or from a peer reviewed journal then hes not interested. The daily mail reports don't cut it.
3. He never crys, I don't think he has ever cried. The tears just don't come no matter how sad he is.
4. He can put things out of his mind. If he chooses not to think about something then he doesnt, its that easy for him.
5. He doesn't care about other people, I mean whether others are pregnant. He doesn't see why that has any bearing on our situation.
6. As above, he doesn't get jealous. He can be genuinely happy for people.
7. He doesn't deal with what ifs. Only the current. He will not think about the future, only the next step.
8. He is an optimist. In his mind we will have children, it's just a matter of when not if.
9. He trusts the doctors.

10. He still thinks it might happen naturally. 11. He is not comfortable talking about ttc. 12. He doesn't see he point in talking about something he can't change. 13. He still likes sex. 14. He has no clue about where in the cycle I am. I don't think he's cottoned on to the fact I only initiate action on a few days in the middle. 15. He's not frightened by a childless future. 16. He's fascinated by seeing my ovaries on screen. 17. He doesn't worry about going to the masterbatorium. 18. He doesn't dwell on the unfairness of it, or think we must be bad people for this to happen to us. 19. He likes the idea of twins. 20. He loves me.

Ok, so the fuck them all routine didn't work. I've just heaved huge sobs down the phone to DH. This one has really knocked me. I feel like I'm in a living nightmare. So when everyone's looking at nursery furniture and going to antinatal classes I'll be looking around an IVF clinic. Yay me.

MrsM sorry you are feeling so down. This really is the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life and it seems the blows keep on coming.

Princess, they must only just be pregnant if due in may, or is my maths wrong? I'm always surprised when people announce it so early on. It's so hard, but we will do it and then we can announce to the world, I thi k I might take out an advert I the times. And have one of those electronic displays On times square. And fly a plane with a banner attached.

Plenty of room on the tent for you mellow. Was this an odd cycle? Or do you normally get a long build up?

Sorry, February, I got all confused :(

Ah joy the danger of posting anything you've read is that undoubtedly it'll upset someone else. TBH the site was a bit contradictory and said if you ovulate later it indicates a good ovarian reserve, which I think is nonsense on its own. But I found the site useful, think it was fertility.ca

I was also reading a thing called miracle baby last night on my phone, think it was on IVF.com and it was also interesting reading.

I'm glad you all think MrN has good sperm; it's wrong to be jealous of your own partner isn't it . The irony, he took recreational drugs for years, still smokes a little, drinks more than me, has a very stressful job, eats loads of shite, is a bit overweight. And he has super sperm. Meh.

Fur baby woke me in the night for some reason and as soon as she did my mind was whirring with IVF, IUI follicle counts, bloods, eggs retrieved, fertilisation rates and on and on. I also had a dream about wedding where everything was wrong including my dress being black. And just now in RL a quick chat with a colleague informed me of baby%232 on the way. They just had the 12 week scan which turned out to be 16 weeks. . I won't lie, I'm hoping that my last completely normal period was a decoy and I'm actually already pregnant; and lo and behold it happens to someone else.