TTC 10 plus months, Part 7

[lisacn]

A friendly, supportive thread for those of us who are taking a bloody long little longer time than average to conceive.

Hello hello,
Just a quick post from work to say hi to everyone! Apols to those to whom I haven't yet sent the poem - after a raspberry lambic and a sour cherry beer at the beer-tasting last night I passed out went to bed and forgot to get online.

lemons that's absolutely brilliant that you are going to do some writing. Yippee! I really think it helps, something about writing things down makes them easier to process. I would love to see what you write, if you feel like sharing, of course. Sorry that June is such a tough month for you - that does not sound like fun at all, with the anniversaries. This new job sounds like it's going to be hardcore - I hope they do give you proper leave!

artemis the beer tasting was fun - just what I needed. It has been beautiful here - I hope it travels across the Atlantic so you all get to enjoy some sunshine too, it's a real mood booster. Wowza about Mr A's relative with number 6 en route. That's impressively fecund indeed!

carrie sorry about the spotting, poor you.

princess I remember seeing Avenue Q - it is hilarious! Sometimes a good laugh about puppets and porn is just what the doctor ordered. Great news that you found a sensibly priced plasterer, and sounds like your body is still thriving on the amazing nutrition you've been giving it!

teu glad you are feeling brighter, and I will ping you my oevre tonight. Snow - I bet it is stunning. I love snow! And hot chocolate and all the other lovely things that go along with it. Strange to think of it being a different season.

lady hello again....We've missed you! That is totally fantastic news about the short wait, and sounds like a wise move to get yourself in tiptop condition first.

sarlat hope you're feeling ok, and thanks for your kindness. I haven't written anything else ttc related, but maybe I should try . As others have said, euro's advice is spot on about the doctors.

purple welcome home! Of course we remember you, lovely to have you back!

nelly sorry to hear about the weird post HSG cycle, that sounds mega-stressful. Hope that work isn't too awful to get back into, I find it takes me at least a week to get my work brain back in gear.

Well, off to purchase UK-themed food for a belated Jubilee party that me and Mr C are throwing tomorrow evening. I am looking forward to serving our guests Pimms cups. Watching Americans drink Pimms is always great - first suspicion, then pleasure, then 'geez these sneak up on ya, don't they?'! I am even considering trying my hand at coronation chicken. Anyone ever made it?

Waves to everyone I have missed, and a glossy, swishy blow-dry for those whose tail feathers need perking.

Artemis I think I was too blame for the slipping on some sperm/falling on a cock phrases.... Sozzles....

Lady that's great news.

Princess I am glad you had found a plasterer solution. My dad, who will tackle pretty much anything DIY related (plumbing, electrics, carpentry, etc) says the one thing he can't do is plastering. There is real skill to it. Which is I guess why some of them charge so much!

Yes, welcome back Nelly. I never got around to reading the 2 weeks of posts I missed when I was on holiday. I have long wondered where the Aussie product hatred came from. I will have to catch up at some point!

Critter good work on introducing the glorious Pimms to the forrins! I have no idea why it hasn't caught on around the world. There is nothing quite like it in summer. And it has fruit in so you can convince yourself it is good for you...

We are off on a shooting course tomorrow. Mr euro's sperm are about as good as I am at finding the target... Hopefully they can pick up some tips tomorrow!

Hi gents,
Thanks for all the hellos and kind words. Artemis I'm not having treatments, just mentalling over ideas of woo and diet on the Internet (I work from home too mostly) then blaming the fact that I don't live in the UK where Boots provides all the resources to get me pg.
I'm not very disiplined when it comes to diet stuff I can do. My cycles are pretty regular and I don't have anything I'm specifically working to achieve, but very interested in Barry's amazing efforts. Wine I relate completely to "tie myself in knots wondering if it's enough" If only we could know what is going on in there, month after month.
Pete I wanted to ask you a question - you are located in a hot non-UK place right? Do you feel freaked out at all disclosing life details because somehow you will be found out? I'm not expressing it very well but I somehow feel exposed and it seems to be tied to being out of the UK. I mean pant snot is pant snot but then life beyond pant snot what's left of it seems more tricky. Ridiculous really because who do I know how is hunting me on MN? And why?
I think I noticed something 'bout AC tightness, which makes ask about the abroad-factor of this thing. I went out last night which is uncommon, I'd rather drink wine at home where no one can see me. Because that way it doesn't count right? Ended up in what should have been a long term TTCers nightmare conversation at party. Heavily pregnant lady (third child), covered Muslim (and hence sober) asking why I wasn't doing IVF ( we got there somehow). Actually it was just about the funniness conversation I have had in a while, she was super witty and decided that I was just being tight (it sounds terrible writing it I know). Little does she know, I will not even pay for the VIP membership for fertility friend for fear that someone will make money fueling my mentalling.
I'm not at all anti-IVF by the way and have followed your writing about it Euro. Wanted to add that last night I also bumped into a women I vaguely know. She has twins from first cycle IVF. They were given bad odds due to "shit eggs" (her words). She said that in some ways the process took pressure off them in comparison to previous TTC, a kind of 'doctors problem rather than mine' approach which was quite interesting.

I can understand that Purple. I feel more relaxed now than I have done in a while about ttc overall, although still not happy about the prospect of IVF. But I think it has taken some of the pressure off.

Hello lad(ie)s. Hope you are having a nice weekend. Mr Nelly and I have spent a cumulative 9 hours in the garden, wrestling it back from the jungle it had turned into whilst we were away. He cut grass and strimmed for his half, and I weeded flower beds for mine. Oh the absolute joy .

Anyway I have read the thread and it was hilarious and sad in equal measure. A huge congrats to Becks on the BFP and special commiserations to sar on the BFN and the crazy doc scaring you like that . Lots of other thoughts as I read through but I'd be here for a week if I tried to respond to everyone! But hooray for being bumped up the list lady, and for those planning a northern meet, please keep me in mind as I can probably get to Leeds on the train. And thanks for the welcome backs. I'm still no clearer on what went on in my cycle but am hoping it was just a one off! We're just having sex and hoping for the best. Just like the good old days!

Anyway I must stop MN so late at night, I need to have early nights and more sex!!

Hi all

Purple I don't know if being non-UK makes discovery on here any more likely... I have odd bouts of paranoia that 'someone' (no idea who) might have identified me and be sniggering behind their hands at my mentalling and reproductive failure even though I'm careful not to disclose identifying details... Is IVF commonplace where you are? Euro I read somewhere on here an opinion that IVF is less stressful than trying to do enforced shagging ad infinitum and from the vantage point of shag week I can well imagine that to be the case. I wonder if just making the decision to do it reduces anxiety in itself.

Nelly that's good thinking, earlier nights and more sex... Not much point for me this evening as Mr A wobbled home about half an hour ago and I'd have my work cut out this evening. Would probably have to put him in a splint

Artemis yes you identified the issue actually. Being non-UK just cant make discovery more likely but not disclosing indentifying details is tricky for me. My environment and location play a big role in my feelings and potentially decision making on TTC. IVF is indeed common here, women not much more than half my age make that choice. The medical industry is prone to high intervention generally, people love their drugs and have a low tendency to question a medical figure, the more the better is the general theme. This placed in an environment where infertility is an issue with graver social consequences than in the UK (I know, grave enough) it makes sense that this would be something at the heart of 'lady medicine'.

'The vantage point of shag week', I love it. I have just entered crap-likely-not-worth-it-shag-week. The best kind. Mr Purple is leaving later this week at a point that in all likelihood is a few days before that perfect Purple egg pops out looking for perfect Purple sperm, which by then will be all dead in the self assessed acidic environment (yes wine I have one too). Mind you it cannot be worse than the last shag week comedy of errors. Surely.

Hiya ladies or lads I should say, well I am back from hols which were lovely. Did it stop me thinking about TTC though? Absolutely not! AF joined me on holiday of course, early again.
Been trying to catch up on my iPhone and I haven't retained anything from the last few pages. Just wanted to say to sarlat how sorry I am about everything and how you feel you have nothing to say for yourself even though you are going through something massive. Anyway I hope you can get a second sensible opinion from a second doctor. I dont see why they cant do a FET. Also I can't remember whether I mentioned before but my acupuncturist was talking to me about antibiotics being used to treat people in France for infertility. They don't seem to do it here but it does suggest there is something in it. I think I have told you before that when I got pregnant I had been on antibiotics for an infection in my foot. I have often wondered whether this was just a pure coincidence....
Glad you had a fab time nelly on holiday. critter - the poetry retreat sounds like it was amazing.
Anyway, I have the butterfly feeling in my stomach and the Sunday night, post holiday blues. This holiday had been sitting like a big beacon of light for several months before me. It meant I didn't really have to contemplate ivf and test results so now it is over, i now really have to face the music. Hopefully will get all my monitoring scan results and bloods this week and a decision will be made about a lap. And first ivf appointment next month.
Sorry I can't reply to everyone but will be joining in from now.

Afternoon all,

So, back from the hospital. Got to see the Consultant himself, pretty pleased about that. Nice guy, firm and a taker of no nonsense. The upshot is that all of my hormones except progesterone are normal but we don't have any conclusive evidence about the progesterone. He explained that we can't take anything from my other results re progesterone and said that in the context of the days that they were done on they were 'poppycock' (even though they were lower than the normal parametres and the GP said that they were low) and not to worry until we have had the blood test done at the correct time. My right ovary is showing a polycystic appearance but he reckons that 20% of women have this, so again nothing to worry about. He is sending me for blood tests to check progesterone level on CD22. When I mentioned that I had a positive OPK on CD17, I got told that the OPKs are useless, that he is the consultant and that he calls the shots - felt like I was being told off but he wasn't unpleasant about it. He's decided upon CD22 because my periods are now between 27 - 30 days, so at least he quantified his decision. He's also testing my blood for anticadiolupin and lupus anticoagulant re miscarriages - I'm not sure what either of these are and plan to do a bit of reading up later on. I didn't realise that my GP had tested my AMH levels and he was quite surprised that she had and asked me if I had asked for that test (I did not - he definitely eyed me with suspicion!). Apparently the level shows that I have plenty of eggs left and is a healthy level. He's not testing my tubes as doesn't think there is a problem. He predicts that we will be pregnant later this year without intervention I'm not so sure, we've been going for a bloody long time already. He also spoke over me to OH and said, "she's obsessing isn't she, the obsessing needs to stop" and then to me "you need to chill out I'm looking into all of this" It was definitely a telling off (I think I let out a couple of Dr Google finds by accident) OH responded by saying, "well she's not one to idle on things and this is important to us and we've been out there on our own for so long, it's not surprising". Good OH. Overall, it was reassuring that they are checking all they can check at this stage and Consultant was firm but fair, knew an awful lot and was v.professional. I'm still a bit stung by being told to "chill out" it felt like a "calm down dear" moment - I do think it was genuinely well meaning though. I don't think he's blaming stress / anxiety for lack of baby just that it can't be helping anything, which annoyingly is what Mum, Dad, Tom, Dick and Harry all have to say on the matter. OH is ordering me to meditation and relaxing pursuits (world / art house cinema, vinyl collection and philosophy books which have taken a back seat over the last few years and need to be brought back into my life). Perhaps there is something in this stopping obsessing thing after all, it's just bloody hard. So, 3 wks until blood test and then he wants to see me again in September to check progress. In other news, ERTD arrived today, so last cycle was 30 days long and luteal phase 13 days. I'm so not sure that luteal phase was ever this long before and as I've never had a +OPK (although thinking about it I may not have tested late enough in the cycle - maybe I'm a bit more clueless than I thought) I'm convinced that this is brown diet related. Other plus is that I'm able to give the brown diet it's full 3 months plus 3 cycles of trying before we go back to the hospital for any further treatment discussions.

Joyce Glad you had a lovely holiday. Hope your first day back at work is ok. Interesting about the antibiotics. I hope that your appointments go ok and you start getting some proper answers.

Purple I'm so sorry you're having such a tough time of all of this. I hope that you find support here with us. Bugger that Mr P is off at shag week time.

Right-ho lots to do. I might not be around quite so much in my bid to research other non TTC related things, follow my non TTC pursuits in a bid to stop the obsessing and chill out a bit more

I hope everyone enjoyed their weekend and has a nice week. Waves to you all and lots of love too. :) xxxx

Hello ladies/lads/ladyboys! Hope you all had nice weekends.

Princess at the consultant telling you to chill! What a cheek. Gold star to your DH for sticking up for you. I wish I could not obsess over ttc, but it's just not possible! I'm also shocked at his opinions on opks, as I was told of for not using them by my ivf consultant! It all sounds hopeful though and I too am sure you will be preggers again.

joy pleased to hear you has a good hols but boo to AF appearing and lack of ttc amnesia. I think when treatment is so imminent, it's impossible to forget about it all.

Hi purple. Hope shag week is going well. Interesting to hear ivf is common where you are.

artemis plllllease do tell about the smurf/tiny willy story. Sounds very amusing. at mr Artemis needing a splint.

Welcome back nellie hope you had a good holiday!

sarlet hope you are still doing ok and good luck with your new consultant. As you say, there's no reason why you haven't just been unlucky. Ivf is more likely to fail than work.

Thanks for the info about vitamins etc. Sadly I don't think they'd do much in our case. Dh's count is so low and the sperms are so rubbish, that I can't see us being able to improve it much. Also, we think it's to do with a problem he had when a kid, so something like damaged vessels, which no amount of healthy eating/woo can fix! Having said that, I will be forcing veg, fruit and brown things down him in the months before our next cycle and he'll be giving up booze again.

ladyg that's really exciting that you will be cycling sooner than thought! Do you feel ready for another go?

euro hope you found the target in more than one way this weekend! Mrgin is going on a stag do next month, which involves shooting and I'm terrified they'll all still be drunk and end up shooting each other!

critter the beer festival sounds tasty good. And you poem really was ace. I do think we should compile a ttc anthology. It'd be much better than the ttc crap amazon sell!

Hello to carrie, lemons, Dave, cheggers, teu, buzzy, mrsd and everyone I've missed.

I'm just back from a hen do with the world's most fertile ladies! Almost all of them had kids (several had 3 plus) and there was soooo much baby talk. Urgh. One of my pregnant friends was there too, but she's so poorly and ungloating that I didn't mind the baybee bump! The others were nice, but def the coven.. One of the most amusing things I heard was when one moaned about her pelvic floor, another said 'god, she's only got one child'!

My hormones seem a bit all over the place, with bad migrainey headaches, painful ovaries and ewcm. Think I'm gearing up for ovulation and am hoping it's not going to be 10 days of this like my last cycle! I'm off on leave today so am being lazy and planning a gossip girl sesh. Oh and I loved the foofa championship. Far more interesting than all the bloody football that's on at the mo!

Purple 'the comedy of errors that is shag week', that sounds familiar... It's turning into shag fortnight here as my temp remains stubbornly low despite a positive OPK the other day. I think MrA may rebel. Postcoital sweet nothings have given way to the charmingly romantic verdict "that was hard work" . And there is football on... Bugger about Mr Purple being away at the critical time. Nature would not win any design awards for the human reproductive system - though maybe a bafta for comedy. Is IVF being recommended for you, or even an option? I get fed up at IVF being seen as some kind of magic bullet when we all know (especially those of us that are older) the odds are not on our side. I am also skeptical, here, that the people who recommend it stand to personally profit - Robert Winston is campaigning for treatment fees to be capped and it angers me that people are profiting from others' misfortune. I would like to know how much investment goes into infertility research.

Glad you had a good holiday joycep! Really interesting info re antibiotics - hurrah, something else to consult Dr Google about . Good luck with the appointments and test results, let us know how you get on. Is IVF a definite next step?

Princess I'm glad your consultant appointment was positive and they're not trying to rush you into treatment options yet. He sounds like a standard NHS-issue 'confident with a hint of patronising' kind of guy - talking to your DH over your head is rude to say the least. I get really sick of the 'relax' crap. Women have babies in war zones for god's sake, and in famines, and in all kinds of stressful and difficult situations. At least it's good news on your AMH levels and they are taking your MCs seriously - I have never heard of either of those tests, do you know what they are looking to find? And you can give the brown diet the full three months. I am sure you'll get there through natural means, you seem to have seen big changes already and I'm completely in awe of your willpower and determination Vinyl and philosophy sounds like a great prescription in the meantime. While I love reading your posts I understand it might not help with the mentalling to spend lots of time on here.

Gin I was also told by a doctor to use OPKs. Then told by a fertility nurse not to... she seemed to think OPKs and temping would cause me stress. I didn't have the energy to explain that peeing on sticks isn't stressful, it's the not managing to achieve a successful pregnancy for two and a half fecking years that does that... The hen do sounds a total nightmare but at least they reminded you of the down sides to having children. Occasionally I compile a list of 'reasons it's great not to have kids' and having a rock solid pelvic floor is right there at the top of the list

I should never have mentioned the Smurf. May I plead innocence and assure you all that no Smurfs were harmed in the air bed incident. You probably all have me pegged as one of those unfortunate types who ends up in A&E having items extracted from various bodily orifices. I can imagine the conversation. 'It's been a pretty standard evening, doctor - a courgette, a leek, two hamsters and a pliable Smurf'. That absolutely wasn't me. I'm going to shut up now before you start to think the lady(boy) doth protest too much

Right, off now for hobbying of the secretive kind. Waves and tail feather fluffs to everyone, hope you all had lovely weekends

I'm also at the consultant talking over you to your OH and telling you to chill out. That wouldn't have impressed me at all!

My consultant told me to use OPKs to time IUI, and the midcycle scans I have had all seem to confirm what the OPKs and temps were saying. I have no idea why some drs are so dismissive of OPKs and temping.

Gin if he's shooting somewhere reputable (or even vaguely sensible), there will be no booze until the guns have been packed away. I've done a couple of very boozy corporate days out that involved clays and the booze didn't appear until everyone had shot.

Artemis I had a wry laugh at "that was hard work". It does become a bit of a chore, doesn't it? I'm wondering whether I can be arsed with a post-ov insurance shag tonight. I was at the splint comment!

Talking of IVF profits, did you read the article in the Evening Standard about ARGC last week? (Sorry - can't find it online bizarrely.) Apparently Taranassi has just taken a £25m dividend. Although the article makes the point that he works incredibly hard and lives pretty simply and this money is to ensure his legacy by exporting his method to other clinics. The article also mentions a success rate of around 85% for people who come to ARGC first rather than making it the last chance saloon having unsuccessfully tried IVF elsewhere.

Wry laugh at 'that was hard work', indeed. We both had really bad colds at the start of last month's shag week, plowed on (only to lost the plot further down the line); just post shag one Mr Purple whispered in a pained manner 'welcome to shag week'. Shag fortnight Artemis, dear god NO. euro post ov insurance shag?? Yeh I've though 'bout that. Thought mind.
This no temping, OPKs advice from drs, yeh don't get it either. Did he say why they are 'useless' Princess? doesn't sound like the type to explain (thanks for telling us about it, uselful to hear) I once had a dr who told me they created stress and told me to have sex daily for day 6 to 23. HA. I said 'with who?'

hello ladies and lads, I am back from my amazing holiday,Italy is soooo beautiful and the people are so friendly and helpful, did a bit of shopping, I couldn't get over how many Italians carried their babies/kids on their scooters they are crazy drivers. We have both decided that we are bitway too old for this backpacking malarkey.

Anyway I threw a coin into the Trevi Fountain for us all :)

I'm still reading through the pages I have missed, but princess the consultant sounds like a arrogant ass, and needs to work on his bedside manner. I can assure he would only talk over me the once. After all that I do hope he helps.
Waves to everyone else

Well I started to feel a bit sick, so came home and poas straight away and got a BFN, think the progesterone must be making me feel sick . So I now need to postpone the ERTD as Mr B is having a minor operation on Monday and I don't want to waste this month. Back to work on Wednesday

Had to clean up after Pam and Pete, they had built a nest and Pam had to be physically removed, she was not going to move willingly. Well I'm knackered and still have washing to do......

Well in the spirit of early nights I am in bed at 8.30! But Mr Nelly is downstairs working and I was bored so thought I'd take a cup of tea and a large bowl of ambrosia creamed rice to bed, do a quick MN catch up then tempt Mr Nelly into bed with my fleecy PJs and Stern Words sexy negligee and winning smile.

I too have done some Wry Laugh out Louding reading the last few posts. At purple's "who with?" (many a time I've been tempted to see if the sexy vet is up for it) and at the "that was hard work".

princess your consultant appointment sounds confusing to me. Great of course that you weren't just fobbed off in terms of MCs; but I'd have lynched him if he'd talked over me in that way .

£25m divi euro? The mind boggles.

re the OPKs, is the only reason so far that has been quoted for not peeing on them, because it causes stress? I mean it's not actually going to cause you harm, other than to your pocket. (unless of course you are relying on them 100% to tell you when to shag, in which case I guess you might technically miss a window. Or unless you are doing it all wrong and sticking the, um, stick, actually up your foof - that might do actual harm!). Anyway I do think it's rather remiss of a Dr to feel they know what will and won't cause their patient stress. Some people surely feel much calmer being in control and knowing what is going on, others probably would get obsessed (not us though, no waaaay). But I like to think most women have the wherewithal to figure out which camp they fall in. Why can't they just say something like "OPKs are not infallible and don't work for all woman in all circumstances, but so long as you don't mind spending the money and aren't wholly relying on them, they can't do much harm". There :)

I am disappointed that the smurf story isn't more juicy Artemis . Is your secret hobbying the same as mine? Or is it something to do with Smurfs

gin the hen-do sounds awful but I'm loving the silver lining re not having kids. We have just spent 2 weeks with my gorgeous 2yo nephew, and you know some kid stuff is really boring . To be fair they live in a hot climate, mozzies are a problem, they have a pool etc so he can't be left unattended to run around the garden or anything. But all the softplay type stuff is pretty dull, everyone just talks about their kids most of the time, and some of the stuff my friend says her DD says or does makes me shudder. I have my own judgy-pants views on why some of the issues arise (guilt parenting, anyone) but I'm beginning to think not having children won't be the end of the world. Woooahhhhh, now there is a confession and I'd still have taken my nephew home on the plane if my sister would have let me

joy I am sorry the holiday wasn't such an escape as you'd hoped. I guess I am in the same boat. I'm procrastinating a little about calling the clinic as I'm hoping for an HSG miracle, but it's unlikely, so IVF is calling. And I spent a fair bit of time talking to my sister and her husband about it. The above nephew is an IVF baby, they've been through it 3 times altogether so it was great to talk openly (I've not really talked to anyone else in RL) but on the other hand didn't really allow me to forget about it; coupled with the totally fucked up cycle. Anyway I hope your first day back to work wasn't too bad and that you are feeling stronger about the impending IVF. We'll hold hands :)

Hmmm on that, I had a tiny bit of red spotting when I wiped today - day 12 I think? No sign of ovulation so far, we had sex last night so wonder if the HSG has done anything nasty to my cervix .

And also an IVF question for those that know - my sister was talking about 70 days of injections. All the DR etc first, then progesterone injections for 50 days (though you stop after the 2ww if it isn't a BFP). I said I didn't think that was how they did it in the UK, does anyone know if they do progesterone injections? Her understanding was it was critical to the success?

Right I'm going to post before I lose this to battery power, rubbish typing skills or the black hole of the internet. Waves to everyone else and will be able to keep up a bit more tomorrow I hope!

WTF barry! Ooh I'd be so . I am told by the fertility clinic to use OPKs to time the IUI. No other option. Do any of them know what they are talking about?! I think peeing on a stick is far less stressful than day 6-23 shagging as purple's doc recommended. Ooh shudder! Shag week for me is nearly as bad as the 2ww- I hate the pressure of it and the guilty feeling if you skip a night. Had a post-ov shag this weekend and felt reckless when getting up straight away to pee, opposed to having my legs in the air whilst trying to scoop back in any that escaped So glad your OH stuck up for you- he sounds so lovely. I sometimes think they don't like people coming in with any knowledge or expectations of treatment, I understand this because I hate that side of my job, but it can be said in a certain way (i.e. not 'chill out'). Just wait til I see my consultant with my diagnosis and treatment plan as prescribed by the famous Dr Joy!

Glad you had a good hol joy but sorry it didn't take your mind off it and that AF showed its ugly face. I know the next steps seem daunting but hopefully you will start to find out more and will be reassured. In the meantime, where can we get you some antibiotics?!

Gin boo to bloody babified/ bumpified hen dos. Oh for the days when going on a hen meant everyone just got smashed and copped off (not me though ). Hen dos in our 30s are all so much more tame! The last one I went to I had to endure them all calling their husbands over breakfast to see how their little prince/ princess had slept. Hope you're enjoying your gossip girl session!

sarlat how are you feeling now CD1 is done and dusted? When's your 2nd opinion apt?

buzzy thanks for throwing a coin in for us- hope it didn't leave you too skint! Glad Italy was as lovely as it promised to be.

euro How are you feeling now towards IVF? I would be really interested to read that article. It really concerns me that there are so many people making money out of desperate couples with the whole fertility thing. I'm sure my clinic does NHS IUI just to get you through the door to then pay for the big guns. Not to mention all the woo people (I love acu... but £40 a session??).

Speaking of which, a very lovely friend of mine booked me a massage with a woo lady. She did a lymphatic drain massage followed by some kind of acupressure/ energy thing! Although I know I'm contradicting the above she was so lovely and so interested in my problems and offering suggestions (some of which seemed sound, some of which were a bit too woo for my westernised mind!). This makes me sound totally lame but I was quite upbeat afterwards as she told me my body was a good place for a baby but that my something or other kidney energy can't really remember was low and that my womb lining was weak (from my long periods/ spotting info). She did also say that I needed to relax (but in a nice way) and gave some suggestions. She also guessed my job from where I had certain muscle knots. I am going back to see her in a few weeks see what a sucker I am for some Bowen Technique and more massage. Was a very positive experience though and a lovely massage if nothing else!

Well, am supposed to be finishing off some paperwork, so better get back to it. Have a nice eve xx

I think OPKs are unhelpful if your hormones are all over the place or as an individual you find they stress you. But they shouldn't be dismissed for everyone.

buzzy thanks for the Trevi fountain efforts.

Nelly I know what you mean about sometimes thinking not being a parent isn't the end of the world especially after being with someone else's sprogs . People seem to find their own children endlessly fascinating though, so I am sure it's different if they are your own.

Re: your IVF query, you do need fake progesterone for IVF because your body won't be producing its own but everyone I know who has had it here has had pessaries (Cyclogest) rather than injections. I tried them alongside one of my Letrozole cycles to see if they made any difference (no, of course not, silly me). They are not too bad, just a bit minging. The carrier is sort of waxy and of course what goes up must come down... Some people find they irritate their cervix and so stick them up the tradesman's entrance instead. I will be trying to resist that I think. My bumhole is Exit Only.

keith I had my second reflexology session today. I enjoy a bit of woo, particularly if it involves a nice foot massage!

I'm still feeling pretty negative about IVF but will probably just force myself to get on with it.

It's odd that I can't find the article anywhere. I searched the evening standard site and google news. This article sorry for the Daily Fail link mentions the 25m figure but is much less balanced than the article I was referring to.

nelly sexy vet, sounds great to me. Even though I abbreviated it to 'with who?' in front of the Dr, the version I use at home is something along the lines of 'there are several scenarios in which I can see myself having sex for 17 straight days, none of them involve you, my lovely husband to whom I have been married to for thousand years'. He takes it on the chin.

nelly love the - no kids not so bad/put nephew on plane - combo confession. Indeed soft play and most other small humans arenas are really boring and full of parents who are harder to deal with than the little menaces themselves. Dreadful business and one I see one a daily basis. I have a really tough skin for the other people's baybees thing due to this over exposure. My son is a toddler so pretty much all the people I hang out with have one in the oven or have just popped out number two. I just have to deal, it's that or stay home and see who pokes who's eyes out first.

To anyone reading who is feeling that I may have introduced chats on my own biological rug rat to this thread, fear not, he is adopted. My body has never graced me with a BFP let alone an actual tiny human.

Artemis regarding your IVF question, I think here they would cut of my left foot if I asked and paid. Certainly the women I met the other night (not a local) say she basically decided, rocked up and did it. I have lots of hang ups about it, many connected to being unexplained and therefore basically doing a medical procedure based on no diagnosis, that euro has expressed so well. Also when I was younger I thought it was not for me in an ill-defined way and didn't explore it at all, now I'm older I feel the odds are shit now and if I was going to do it, I should have done it before. Ramble ramble.

Waves to all.

Morning! Just popping in quickly to answer nelly's ivf question. It depend on your protocol as to whether you DR. I think most clinics here use a nasal spray. As euro has said, progesterone is usually given as pessaries. I used the back door as less of it came out and it also aggravated the cystitis, for which I am currently on another course of antibiotics! You use them from EC until pregnancy test day. If a BFP you continue with them but if bfn you stop. I've heard the injections are pretty nasty so well done your sister! Obvs you stim from day 1-EC and will take an antagonist for several days too, and they are all injections. At my clinic you also have clexane post EC, but I didn't have it due to my bleeding probs. Hope that helps! How many rounds did your sister have? Good to hear that it can work!

Waves to everyone else. Need to move my arse and get on the train to work!

Hello ladies

princess your appointment sounds like it went quite well, despite you being treated like some hysterical & highly strung flakey laydee! He sounds quite on the ball about the ovulation timing thing (no doctor has ever factored in my typically late ovulation when ordering the Day 21 test) and I reckon that is encouraging. I am a bit about the opposition to OPK tests. I agree that if it reassures you then it isn't a bad thing. Incidently I was told at my appointment that I will have to use the OPKs alongside the cycle monitoring (whenever I can get a bloody appointment!). Yet again non uniformity in fertility treatment...what a surprise!

buzzy Glad that you had a good holiday. Thank you for thinking of us when you were at the Trevi Fountain!
Do you think that Pam has babies?? I've been watching Springwatch (saddo alert) and am going all gooey over the lil birdies (and marvelling at how for most other species, with the obvious exception of pandas, they just mate at the right time and bingo there are babies. Human beings really are quite flawed. Are there infertile birds????)

Purple I love your comments about being agreeable to shagging for 17 straight days but just not with your DH! I am convinced that it would be so much easier to make a baby if we were all in the first flush of our relationships. At our doc appointment I told her that our sex life had become boring - I am still cringing at that.

joycep welcome back from your hols. It was good that you managed to have a break from TTC mentalling. Sorry that AF hitched a ride on your holiday too. Back to reality must be tough.
I am intrigued by the antibiotics thing and plotting going to the GP and complaining about my spots in the hope I might get a course of antibiotics. Would that be very bad???

nelly It's good that you had a good holiday too. Also hats off for your olympian gardening effort. Ours is like the tropics but I keep telling myself that you aren't supposed to garden in the rain!

euro Ah yes, the "post ov insurance" shag and then we have the pre ov insurance shag....so depressing how sex has become like making deposits in a bank.

keith Living dangerously hey by getting up and having a pee after SWI rather than laying for an hour in the wet patch doing the air bicycle...what were you thinking

jim Sorry about the hen do. I suppose any women only bash is bound to be full of baby making machines. The pelvic floor thing was funny. I come out in a bit of a cold sweat when I think of post baby pelvic floors and stretch marks.

Artemis I agree with you about being told to relax is bollocks when you consider that women manage to make babies in war zones and the like. I just find it really condescending especially when trotted out by medical professionals. Like princess said it really is the equivalent of "calm down dear".

We've both still got a cold that won't bloody go away and so we have only managed to SWI once this cycle so all in all a very poor show. I'm really not that arsed though because I'm not convinced that we had a golden egg anyway. I definitely don't have sore boobs this month which kind of confirms my suspicions! That said I am still managing to symptom spot??????? This is made very difficult by the generally feeling like shit 'cos of the cold and the fact that DH bought full fat milk that is making all cups of tea taste like kak (he looked at me like I had gone totally cuckoo when I pointed out how he had spoiled my symptom spotting this month & made a mockery of this usually very exact science). Anyhow I will soldier on dreaming up symptoms

Waves and love to everyone.

purple I think it will be very interesting to have your perspective on TTC. It's true that the majority on here have no children ( biological or otherwise). We had a couple of lovely 10+ers for a while who now have BFPs, which in my darkest moments I didn't take much comfort from, as they technically knew they could get pregnant (even though consciously I'm aware that things can and do change). For the rest of us, we have that aching black hole where a child should be, and I wonder how your experience differs? I'm not sure how we would establish that, as emotions are rather subjective. At times I've wondered how I'd feel about donor eggs or adopting. I guess the 2 are poles apart really, but for me in a way they are linked as in I'd have no biological link to the child. anyway would be very interested, if you can in any way face it, of hearing how you think having your son impacts on your TTC journey . Or I can just mind my own beeswax!

gin she has has 3 rounds. First was ICSI, had 2 blasts put back. BFP on one but sadly lost at around 9 weeks. Second round was IVF again 2 put back, bfp on my nephew. 3rd round was FET but didn't work. Luckily she's now pregnant naturally, a month after she turned 40, due in 10 weeks .

Thanks for the ivF info. I wonder if the method of taking progesterone matters? Sis did hers in the US, she did say the jabs were brutal for so long...

Snort at euro having a One Way only orifice.

Ok should be working. More inane iPhone drivel later

Morning all,

I have at lots of the shenanigans on here this morning. Notably, Jim & Artemis's rock solid pelvic floors - impressive, Nelly's PJs, stern words, rice pudding and sexy vet, Purples with who? jibe, the debate between pessaries up the front or round the back creases up with laughter - pessary is just such a funny word and I'm such a child and now it makes me think that they could make pessaries more fun by making them in shapes such as smurfs snigger, snigger

I am not liking the sound of the hen do though Jim that sounds very difficult. I think I have been sheltered from pregnancy and birth announcements over the last few weeks and it's so much nicer. No more until me please. Unless of course they are on here and then they are 11 on the 0 - 10 deserved scale.

Buzzy welcome back after what seems like a long time. Glad you had a lovely holiday. Thank you for your Trevi fountain wishes.

Cheggers loving the sound of your massage. That sounds really lovely. And see why can't the doctors take on board that when they tell you to chill perhaps they should suggest how you do this or perhaps offer hypnotherapy for TTC, you are feeling sleepy, you will not think about babies, you will not obsess about baby aspirin and cough medicine, you do not need to worry about avoiding dairy etc etc etc Maybe this would make their lives easier too. I think perhaps David Cameron has had some of this, I hear he is good and chillaxing and forgetting about his babies.... ha ha ha.

Euro glad you are enjoying the reflexology. It really is the best form of relaxation, I'm totally hooked. I had a touch of a cold over the weekend and felt it in my sinus point on my toes. Very bizarre! Cold has passed, must be something to do with the vast quantity of vitamins I'm taking at the moment!

So the OPK thang.... to clear this up a bit

he said: "you know when you ovulate, right?"
me: confidently, "Oh yes!" what I actually meant was "No! But you are quite scary and will tell me I'm stoopid if I don't say yes. Sometimes I think I do but other times I'm not so sure and I'm v proud of my recent + OPK and sticking to the brown diet which you definitely don't want to hear about and I need to track this stuff to see if the brown is doing any good and to get a feel for my cycles properly now the bloody stix work. You so don't understand old man"
he said: "and you are having regular sex, 2 - 3 days a week"
me: confidently, "oh yes" ^what I actually meant was "sort of in a not trying properly at ov time because of my supplement regime but otherwise yes and sometimes more or maybe less depending on how we are feeling because we are not 2 - 3 times a week robots. But I'm definitely getting more than you, old man"
he said: "well, you will hit the jackpot and don't need to use OPKs"
me: "oh that's good, so I don't need to use the OPKS"
he said "No."

The useless bit was more aimed at his superior knowledge of my cycles based on me telling him that my periods are now 27 - 30 days long and his innate understanding of my unique genetic make-up and lady cycles i.e. he doesn't need to be told when to do my blood test and that's his decision because he is God, I mean the Fertility Consultant. Arrogant, yes but I feel like I am ultimately in control, he is my bitch now and I have delegated TTC research to him. See how ya like those chestnuts Mr Eros.

I'm sure they are imperative for other treatments but he doesn't think there is anything that they can bring to the party for me.

In all seriousness though, because I don't want to give off any flippant or unhelpful vibes, these are my thoughts in reflection on the meeting yesterday (not that I am obsessing in any way, shape or form... as Nelly said "no waaaaaaaaaaaaaay." ) As a doctor he was very knowledgeable, sharp, transparent, articulate, blunt and treated our problems seriously. I didn't feel fobbed off and he is taking sensible steps to sort this out. I feel reassured that he is confident that we can get there without treatment, he must see 100s of women at his NHS and private clinics, this has cheered me up a little. I do feel like I'm in good hands and I'm not going to take flippant comments to heart, I've done that before and the only person who suffers is me and OH If he was a nasty man who wanted to make money he could have just referred me to the local private clinic for unnecessary treatment but he didn't. He did make me feel small over the chill / obsessing thing and I'm still smarting a little, but annoyingly, I think he is right and this is probably why it stung so much - I couldn't say "no" or "I don't agree" because I would have been lying. And OH stuck up for me anyway and Mum and Dad did too when I spoke to them. So at least I don't feel like a complete loon. Yes, this could have been put by him more tactfully but as my Mum said he is a man of a certain age and will just have a different way of operating, plus they have to be cold to do their jobs properly. I have been told to chill so many times about TTC and loads of other stuff in life so I have decided that rather than getting angry I'm going to try and do something about it - take it as constructive criticism if you like. I have bought a book called 'Mindfulness' which teaches a technique called "mindful cognitive therapy'. By reading this book and doing exercises for 30 minutes each day I am removing some of the time that I would obsess or research TTC stuff. I can't keep beating myself up over this, even I recognise that I'm a bit a lot OCTTCD (obsessive compulsive TTC disorder). It's not easy to give up an addiction, so far I've done smoking, caffeine, alcohol and dairy but the last thing I have to do is to stop the goggling and manic researching and constant thinking about babies and pregnancy. I don't' want to be boring anymore or only be able to talk about myself / my problems with family and friends. I want to be able to tell them interesting stuff again. I had a lovely evening last night, reading the mindful book, reading some Alain de Botton and learning about Aristotle (philosophy lite but I need something lite to get me back in the swing. I read Sartre, Camus, De Beauvoir last year but am totally not in that head space right now and I'm not going to beat myself up for not being able to tackle more heady reads) watching a bit of naff telly, talking about our restoration project and getting an early night. Tonight, I will do a bit of the same with a trip to Waitrose and maybe a french film thrown in. I will still be here telling you my stuff because this thread is a force for good and an open space to express TTC woes and concerns. The wanting a baby isn't going to vanish but I would like to control it better. After all, it's a biological urge and I don't think they are so easy to reign in! You lot are also new friends and I really love spending time with you all, albeit in a virtual space. I love hearing your news and sharing my news with you. Don't worry I'm not going anywhere, just may be here less with my energies focusing on other things.

Artemis I don't know what those other blood tests are for. I had a quick look on wikipedia yesterday, didn't really understand so left it alone. If they are not a problem I don't need to know and if they are a problem I'm sure the Consultant will explain or I can phone up my sister who will be able to understand. For now, ignorance is bliss!

I probably sound a bit like a new age wanker. I hope I don't come across like that!! I haven't got into crystals yet, I may need a fish slap if at any point I come back talking about healing crystals and chakra cleansing... Right, back to work. Waves and loves to you all. :)

morning ladies, well i'm home today which is good as i'm still totally shattered
on the progesterone front I use the back door and have no leaks, I really am a tight arse although I think they are making me feel nauseous

dave sorry you've both been unwell, there were no eggs in the nest when we evicted them. I couldn't get over the amount of bird poo.

on the woo front I've been having acupunture and herbs, they have helped my migraines but not in the baby making dept, a woman I know on a different site said she had reikei?? I find that a bit far fetched

anyway i'm off to finish cleaning up waves to everyone

nelly your question is very interesting and you certainly shouldn't mind your own beeswax. In a perfect world I wanted to adopt and have biological kids. The experiences are different ones. I do realize that adoption most often falls into the "last resort" category of building a family, which is something I sometime struggle to accept in a way that, of course, I don't with IVF or donor eggs. Perhaps if I had popped out kids at will the idea of adoption would have fallen away. Kids absorb your time and thoughts as we all know and it may never have happened. Certainly in the first year our son was with us (adopted as an infant) I didn't give TTC or a second adoption much thought because there was this wonderful new human in our lives. I'm amazed that people plan a second when the first is so tiny, it wasn't my experience at all (and not because it was tough - much easier than I imagined). He is two and a half now and its a wonderful thing. Then enters the sibling issue. If he is to be an only child, he and we will be fine but the there is a hole, but perhaps not the same one. You are right, of course, it's hard to say.

I feel an strong urgency to have another child and to give our son a sibling, not so much to be pregnant and give birth but that too that too that too A second adoption is not a option for us now (perhaps it will be in the future, but it's complicated and we don't know for sure). As I mentioned, because I have a child I mix with the diffed at will on a daily basis which just comes as part of the deal. I'm generally assumed to be barren and at peace with that, as observers work with the "last resort" theory of adoption. This has some of it's own consequences: I get asked rarely about more kids so I guess I suffer less from the 'when are you starting a family' but I'm not sheltered from the constant baby blah blah, present for it but not included in it which is not always comfortable.

It's possible that the adoption process itself has given me exposure to the world of 'it's not fair' beyond the TTC process. The unequally nature of what we are given in life and how we are treated by organizations and individuals is ever present (silly example: the organization I was working for gave me no leave to adopt our son, if he was my biological child it would have been an absolute right). And ultimately, of course, if the world was a fair and decent place he would not be our son at all. Has this made me more able to accept that things don't work as we would wish? It sure doesn't feel kind it, but it's possible.

As far as the lack of biological 'connection', on a personal level I celebrate it and love it. For me it's positive, cool and interesting. On a social level it's complicated where we live currently as we throw up some challenges for those around us. But this is something specific and something to be thrown into the 'stupid world' bucket.

Does all this stop me thinking about TTC day and night, hell no.

nelly thanks for asking. It was a bit long, sorry.

Off topic and double snort at euro's exit. I strayed onto Dadsnet the other day saddo and as it's exit-related, I'll repeat a response which is just pure class.

"Imagine doing a poo. Now imagine doing it backwards. There you go, no need to bother him about it any further."

princess - i am glad your DH stood up for you...how dare he say chill out ! Even if it was said in good gest, to my ears he might as well have told me ? I have no understanding of what you are going through?. 13 day LP is great! That must mean your progesterone levels are going up. I can?t believe diet alone has done that ? my LP will not budge above 11.

gin - sorry about the covenous hen party. Sounds hideous. Did you have all these migraines and painful ovaries before you had ivf? It really sounds unpleasant, poor you. and cystitis? Urgh

artemis - interesting that Mr (lord) Winstom is campaigning to cap prices of ivf. I remember he said it cost about 30p to freeze embryos, yet people are charged about £750 for the pleasure. That is surely wrong and clearly they are praying on people?s desperation and misery. However, he also has a huge axe to grind especially with a certain big ivf clinic. He really was kicked out of the ivf world because he was plain wrong about many things ? he said there was no truth in blastocyst transfers and refused to do them and he still goes on television to say there is no truth in the immune system playing a role in infertility. That has led the way for people like MR T at argc who do believe in immunes to be such a success and get the results and therefore can pay himself £25m in dividends. I hope he does plough some of it back into research etc. It?s now something like 45 out of 50 of the top richest doctors in the world who are now fertility doctors which is scary. I think it is dangerous when you can earn so much money from something like fertility ? you pave the way for charletans and people are motivated by money rather than research and altruistic reasons (haha). I do wish there was a payscale system where if you have a failed cycle then you pay less. £8k or however much it costs on something that doesn?t work is not funny.

nelly - it?s interesting hearing your thoughts on the ups of not having kids. On bad days I can?t even contemplate that outcome and on good days I think there will be some positives if it doesn?t happen. It?s nice that you could talk to your sister about ivf but I?m sorry it meant you couldn?t totally forget about it on your hols. Spotting on day 12? I got random bleeding after my hsg. Perhaps it?s stuff just making its way out?

keith - I?m always up for a bit of woo and your lady sounds good. I?m a total sucker for these things although it is slowly getting in to my head that perhaps i need the class a drugs to get me preggo....or perhaps it is just antibiotics I need. My parent?s dog is on antibiotics at the moment ? do you think that will work? Perhaps I will just go in to Granny?s medicine cupboard instead . I?ve been eyeing up her steroids as well.

I cannot get hold of my nhs consultant. I thought it was weird when she just said ?call me up when you are back from holidays?. I only have a number for reception and by the tone of the woman?s voice, I am not sure I can trust her to pass on my messages. This is going to be as tricky as getting through to the HMRC.