TTC for 10+ months, part 3

[joycep]

The other thread was just about to fill up and so here we are again with a slightly different name now as many of us have been trying for well over 12 cycles now. We had a few great successes on Part 2, with a couple of people getting bfp's on their 17th and 19th month of trying. So let's hope for more successes on Part 3. (Moaning, crying, sadness, anxiety & bitterness is certainly allowed on here!)

That's great news nelly ! a wedding will give you something else to focus on.

I think about the stats alot too. It's 90% who conceive with 2 years but i bet about 10% of those people have had assistance of some kind. Actually if 1in6 have issues then it will be more. But then again, it doesn't factor in age does it? How many of those people are over a certain age?

thread number 3, really hasn't been successful this time, we really need a bfp on here to keep hopes alive!

I noticed someone got a bfp on the manuka honey thread and she was trying for 20months...I'm afraid that prompted me to go and buy another bloody pot. It doesn't even last a month.

Congratulations Nelly. People have been asking us when we'll be having children since we first got together. I just say "we'll have kids sometime".

I've always been very open that I really want children. Our friends may have guessed, I even told a couple of them that we were starting to ttc. None have asked how it's going, I don't know if I wish they had, or am happy they haven't. My closest friends are all men too, so maybe it's not so unusual :)

Sorry to all those people who've got their AF.

I'm expecting mine in the next couple of days. I'm trying to really, really expect it, I find it easier if I try not to hope. Sometimes I feel like I succeed, that maybe I'm not actually depressed. I know I'm fooling myself though, and trying to fool my OH too. He hates seeing me upset, and I try to protect him from as much as I can these days, because I couldn't protect him when I was ill. He's worried that we're not pg yet, but not depressed. I told him I've joined MN because I am feeling depressed and lonely about it, and need people who understand what it's like to talk to, and listen to, so I don't feel like I'm the only one.

As far as the male fertility problems go - I didn't really explain myself very well. I certainly don't hope my OH has a problem! I also don't think it's 'easier' to fix a sperm problem... just that for some reason it seems like it. A man makes millions of sperm each time.. surely a nice doctor can find one or two good ones? It only takes one out of the million to make a baby. I know it's not that simple, unfortunately.

OH and I were talking about it last night while out to dinner (luckily the restaurant was nearly empty at the time). He was surprised when I told him 50% of fertility problems in couples are down to the man. Fertility issues are seen as a woman's problem I think, though I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because the medical interventions for male problems still mostly involve the woman - lots of tests and cycle monitoring, implantation, scans etc.

I hope we have no problems at all in a way, and that we've just been unlucky. However I don't want to be told we're just an 'unexplained'. I was thinking about statistics last night, particularly probability. 'Normal' couples have a 50% chance of getting pregnant if they get all their timings right. Unfortunately, it's that same 50% every time.. like throwing a coin. Doesn't matter how many times you throw it and get the same result; the next throw will still have a 50/50 chance. It's highly unlikely you can throw the coin 15 times and get the same result every time, but it's possible. Maybe that's all our problem has been so far, bloody bad luck. Or maybe it's a dodgy coin :(

I was reading a rather depressing thread on FF yesterday. Someone posted that the chances of getting pregnant, if you don't conceive in the first year, are 2%. That they were always 2%, but you didn't know you were part of that group until you reach that milestone. It's depressing to think I might only have a 2% chance every month, and that that will never improve, at least not without intervention.

Sorry it's another long post.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to link to the FF thread on here, it's in the TTC section and called "What my RE says about those TTC 12+ mo."

There is lots of discussion on there around the numbers, and that they might only be for the area the lady is in. However, the pertinent sections of her post are:

"On average, couples have a 20-25% chance of conceiving every month (we are all intimately familiar with that statistic) but after the 12 month mark, couples only have a 2-3% chance of conceiving each month. (wait, what?! How come nobody talks about that statistic?!). Note that both of these statistics average all age groups together. Meaning that in the first 12 months those in their teens can have up to a 50% chance each cycle, while those in their mid-late 40's have only a 5% each cycle.

That statistic blew my mind. The numbers continue:

With IUI alone the chances of conceiving each month are only 2-3%. (another WTF?!)

IUI coupled with fertility meds gives you a 4-9% chance each month.

IUI coupled with injectable meds gives you a 6-9% chance each month.

Note that these percentages are for couples without confirmed fertility issues (the "unexplained" infertility group). If you have confirmed issues (especially the tougher to treat male factor issues) the percentages are lower.

Those numbers really shed light on this uphill battle we're facing! If you do IUI for 3 months, your chances look a little better, but still not the 100% that we all wish it was

And lastly, of course, IVF has a 45- 55% chance each month."

Didn't just want to refer to it without people being able to read for themselves.

Hi girls! Sorry to hijack thread! Was killing time here at work- lurking indiscriminately over the whole of conception threads. Just wanted to say to joycep - I jumped on the manuka bandwagon too: nada difference. The lady who fell pregnant was also on clomid - she revealed that on the pregnancy threads! And Roxanne who started the thread never showed her face again! it seems that all is not as it seems on t'internet- there's a surprise. Ok I'll get off now- before you boo me off!

Gosh those stats are astounding Stasi!

It certainly does explain why it seems like such an uphill battle. And it suddenly makes the IVF chances stand out as being a lot better. I certainly never realised the difference in the IVF / IUI stats

On the male factor thing I think we're really lucky that we live in the time we do, in as much as if there is a good sperm in there there are ways of getting to it now - it ain't cheap but at least there are even options for some things that wouldn't have been there years ago.

Hope everyone else is doing ok.

I agree - we are due another BFP on here (at least one) - keeping fingers crossed for you all xx

Afternoon ladies

nelly Yay! Huge congratulations to you and your DF (is that right?) Was it a big surprise?

I am obsessed with the stats so this is all very interesting to me! Thanks for posting stasi

Having a years' worth of well-timed SWI behind me makes me think it's definitely not going to happen naturally and we should just go straight to IVF. But according to the 80% / 90% thing, half of people in my situation will conceive within the following year, so within this next year I have as much chance in theory of conceiving naturally as I do with IVF. But then... are these people who have somehow managed to just not time it right despite having regular SWI? And where do interventions come into that statistic?

The 2%/3% thing is incredibly depressing but it does explain people who conceive after years of trying. Their chances were very much lower each month so it took many more throws of the dice. But the problem is the 2% thing is meaningless in the context of the individual; that stat includes people who will never conceive naturally and other who are mildly subfertile and it takes a few extra months. At the end of the day if it's unexplained you have no idea of what the problem is and how severe it is. All you can do is set your own time limit for how long you're prepared to try naturally (mine is 2 years).

It is enough to make your head explode really isn't it? We really, really need a BFP soon - Im still convinced we'll get a run of them at some point. Thank god for fertility treatment though - at least there are options out there for women like us.

Uuum I don't like those stats but considering I have had about 19cycles where nothing has happened, that percentage does add up. But looking at my IuI stats for my place, it shows that 20% of people get pregnant on each round of medicated cycle. Weirdly 80% get pregnant on non mediated cycle but Their numbers are small though and that may be sperm donation women rather than women with problems. Also I got pregnant after 2 cycles before. Perhaps that was my pure 2% chance and now I am waiting for that glimmer of hope again.

Thanks wishing for clearing that up, there was I thinking it was the Manuka. What a mug!

All these stats are making my head hurt. Those ones posted by staci sort of match the conclusion I had come to myself, that really the odds are poor after 12 months because it can't just be down to bad luck. But then that doesn't match with the 92% by 2 years compared with 84% after 1 year. This is taken from the NHS website:

"Most couples (about 84 out of every 100) will get pregnant within a year if they have regular sex and don?t use contraception. About 92 out of 100 couples trying to get pregnant will do so within two years.
Women become less fertile as they get older. For women aged 35, about 94 out of every 100 who have regular unprotected sex will get pregnant after three years of trying. However, for women aged 38, only 77 out of every 100 will do so.
The effect of age on men?s fertility is less clear.
What does ?have regular sex? mean?

Having regular sex means having sex every two to three days throughout the month.
Some couples may try to time having sex with when the woman ovulates (releases an egg). However, guidance from NICE (National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence) advises that this causes stress and is not recommended.
Fertility problems

Fertility problems affect one in seven couples in the UK.
Many factors can cause fertility problems, including:
hormonal (endocrine) disorders such as problems with the thyroid or pituitary glands
physical disorders such as obesity, anorexia nervosa or excessive exercise
disorders of the reproductive system such as infections, blocked fallopian tubes, endometriosis or low sperm count
Some of these factors affect either women or men. Others can affect both partners. The most common causes are ovulation failure (which itself can have many causes) and sperm disorders.
In nearly one-third of people, fertility problems cannot be explained."

So I still don't understand whether the couples included in the 2 year thing have sought any sort of help and have had help but I think not. So where does the one in seven come from? Also, how do they know that the people really were having regular sex? From my personal experience of friends and family it takes 5 months maximum for people seriously trying (all these people are under 35). So that's how I knew there was a problem and went to the Dr after 11 months, and I was right that there was a problem.

To be fair, both my gynae and the urologist DH saw have said very clearly that ICSI is our best choice and that we should go for that if we want to conceive. The gynae was prepared to try IUI after we told her we wouldn't be able to do ICSI for several months but she did say the chances were very small. She also said that while waiting for ICSI it could happen, but she said it would be like winning the lottery which I took to mean that the chance of it happening was very, very small. But stupidly (or maybe as a coping mechanism) I manage to convince myself every month that maybe it will be our lucky time. This is why I was wondering if some of the people who manage it within 2 years really did win the lottery and actually did have a problem but still managed it. I suppose it must happen, I just don't know if I'm fooling myself and that I should accept that ICSI is our only choice and that we won't actually be ttc until we start IVF.

I'd love for a fertility expert to come on here to have a webchat so we could get some of these questions answered. Does anyone know how we request a webchat to MN, or do you think it would be a stupid idea?

x posted with joycep, I bet you're right and the 80% will be women with no fertility problems but having to use donor sperm. Is that 80% per attempt? Because that still seems very high compared to 25% for a natural cycle.

wishing it is always suspicious when an OP doesn't post again on a thread they started. Do you think it was someone from the manuka honey board? I must admit I really like the taste though so I may well get sucked into buying some more. Maybe it will help ward off a cold if nothing else.

But there are so many stories out there of women taking ages to get pregnant and then something then clicks, they get pregnant and then they don't have any problems getting pregnant again. It's like the body learns how to do it. But if there is just one thing wrong, slight hormone balance, low morph or whatever, suddenly chances are going to reduce dramatically. And considering so many things have to take place to conceive, it is no wonder that it can take ages if there is something slightly off. All the stars and planets have to be lined up.

That TCOYF book says you should get investigated after 4-6months and because i knew exactly when i was ovulating, i also knew there was an issue quite early on. Not sure what that issue is though.

mrsd - i actually emailed MN headquarters ages ago about getting an expert to actually write something about Luteal phase in particular. I was so confused about the conflicting evidence and whether it really is an issue etc etc and there were so many people starting threads on it so i thought it would be great if someone could jsut clear it up! . Anyway, the gist of what i got back was, if MN can't earn money from it, they won't do it. An expert would need to go to them and say I would like to do a webchat...i think they would pay for that privilege because it would be promoting their name. And to be honest, what may be one expert's view may be the complete opposite to another expert, so who do you believe?
yes 80% at each cycle. i was a bit but the stats were tiny like out of 8 people.

I didn't realise that was how the webchats work. I naively thought MN approached people to come on because they thought it would be useful or interesting to their members. But I suppose they have to make money somehow. No top fertility expert is going to pay to come on are they? And certainly an NHS person wouldn't. That makes sense now why they had Zita. I thought it was odd when I looked through the webchats that she was the only fertility type person. So annoying because I have loads of questions I want to ask a proper medically qualified person but not my own dr if that makes sense.

joycep the Dr Beer book on reproductive immunology suggests that it should happen within 3 months if you are timing it right and their are no problems on either side. Which fits with the TCOYF book advice to get investigated after 4-6 months. You'll never get 100% rate because there might be chromosomal reasons why some embryos won't stick even where both parties are healthy and there are no fertility issues as such. But it should happen within 3 goes.

I've just had lunch with a very pregnant friend. She's due the day after my next gynae appointment. We were joking that on the 7th I'll be having a dr peering up my chuff trying to work out how to get a baby in there and shortly afterwards someone will be peering up hers trying to work out how to get a baby out! My view is you have to laugh about these things. She started trying for her second a month after we started trying properly for our first. She had a chem preg the first month and then this pregnancy the second month of trying. I can't help thinking what might have been, although I am very happy for her. She makes delightful children.

I wrote a big long thing about not thinking "what-if", but deleted it all for being too depressing. Basically, I try not to think that way. I'm an optimist usually, and like to think that things happen for a reason. I don't believe in God (though I've tried to in the past), so it's more just a general feeling that if something did happen the way we planned, there'd be no room for something else to come along.

My first marriage failed, but if it hadn't, I wouldn't have my amazing fiancee now...

My parents split up when I was little, and if they hadn't - I wouldn't have 4 brothers. It was while practically raising my two eldest brothers, after their mother left, that I realised I wanted children - no matter what. I was about 8 :)

On another note.. just went to the bathroom and noticed a brownish tinge to what looked like ewcm (sorry for TMI). I've had a bit of cramp this morning, but that's not uncommon for me. My temperature was high this morning, and I've never started my AF on a high temp day, it's been totally consistent for the last 10 months of charting. I actually hate thinking "what if" and getting my hopes up, though I still can't control it. Sigh. My chart is here.

euro - you always sound so level headed with your head screwed on and very accepting of your friends pregnancies. But you're right you have to try and laugh about all of this. I am really intrigued by your meeting with an immunology doctor. Do you know what is involved and is it pricey?

I'm afraid so Mrsd. I naively thought rhat too but they would have to pay someone basically. I would pay for membership to a site if I had access to fertility experts. I try and speak to my doctor about things but she is normally halfway out the door whilst I am trying to ask questions. If I can squeeze 10mins out of her for £175 I am lucky.

just to add to some stats. Zita West believe that 80% of the unexplained infertility cases are down to mindset.
www.telegraph.co.uk/health/wellbeing/7798326/Zita-West-Less-stress-more-sex-key-to-fertility.html

Hellos to you all on a Friday afternoon.

Firstly a massive champagne cork cracking congratulations to nelly! Hurray for happy news, so chuffed for you.

So I've been following this thread today and thinking about statistics. A LOT! I think I won't offend anyone by saying that we are in the ten per cent of folks who don't conceive in the first year of trying. But, are we in the five per cent of people who don't conceive after two years? Well I really don't know. 10-15 people not conceiving in a year is one in every 9-10 women. That's a lot of women! Thank god I've found some of you on here. And, like mrsden I am surprised we haven't had a bfp this autumn - yet.

The thing is, statistics can be helpful in one way but meaningless in another. God curse the book that says after 3-4 months there's probably a problem. I wish I'd never read that as I think a lot of my anxieties stem from that sentence. I think that a big old chunk of couples have high fertility and bingo they get upduffed pretty quickly. I think the other half are not so fertile and in some instances for identifiable reasons and in some cases it's a bit more unclear. Taking me and dh as an example.

May - 6 months in, dubious sperm morphology. Progesterone fine and ultra sound excellent.

July - much improved SA consultant thinks it's absolutely fine.

September - borderline fsh on day 5. Still normal. Consultant says day 5 no good and to repeat on day 2. He laughs at me for worrying and says its fine. (hes a jolly kind of man). Google tells another story. Tubes unknown as yet.

I look at this and think, that on both sides, we are perhaps not optimum. If my tubes are fine, we will still go down as unexplained, cos there isn't a big old problem, just as joycep says, perhaps a level of subferility. Maybe my mucus is hostile, maybe every other egg is fragile and not up to the job, maybe the timing isn't as good as I like to think and so on and so forth.maybe I have evil NK cells that murder sperms. BUT there are thousands of couples out there that trot along trying for more than a year, maybe more than two and never get these tests done, get preggers and never know that the sperm had big heads and the fsh was high etc. Maybe they are laid back and worry less and just let nature take it's course. The three percent statistic is shocking but I'm more inclined to believe that for all of us lovely, caring mums to be, we have our own statistical number and knowing it just wouldn't be helpful. I am convinced that we all have a golden egg and a golden sperm in the making and a lot of it is down to good old fashioned luck and fateful alignment. I could sit here and roll two dice a lot of times and never get a double 6.

Struggling to conceive sucks. Not knowing why sucks and knowing why sucks just as much. And while I've spent untold hours trying to deduce when and how long this thing will take, sadly, I don't think any amount of reading is going to tell me. Flipping it on it's head - say we end up in the 5 per cent, well if we totted up all the sats on for babies from, say, 3 rounds of ivf or clomid or 6 iui, I think it would be a very small number indeed of people who never make it. And for me,, thats the best I can think of at the moment. That together with the dog + fostering plan if I hit 40 and it still hasn't happened.

I'm not exactly sure of what I'm trying to say in this post. I think it's perhaps a clumsy way of saying sod the stats! They are cruel and they make us worry. For me, right now, in the midst of being very poorly, I'm trying to re-evaluate things and focus on me and my physical and mental health. I think ttc has bought out the worst in my anxious/worry/pessimistic nature and has actually made me ill! So I'm trying to find some hope, take a step back and refuses to say relax think positively. I'm going to check that thread out joycep!

I love you all on here. And I really do, 100% believe that we will all get there in this massive trek, in the end. And we'll remember the Manuka Days, if not fondly, but as a testament to how much we wanted our kids. And we'll never ever say "so when are you planning on having a family" to anyone, ever or post bump photos on Facebook. So, even though this journey is not something I'd say is a lot of fun, it has taught me a lot of things. Please someone reply and tell me that this makes some fragment of sense and is positive and not ranty! [hbiscuit]

you manage so well to cope with pregnant friends euro, I like your attitude. My fear about talking about ttc and my struggle with it with pregnant friends is that they'd make all the right noises but would really be thinking oh I'm so pleased that's not me. Because I know that's what I'd be thinking.

staci I also believe things happen for a reason. And I know that at least DH and I will be soooooo ready for this baby once it eventually happens, I know that all of our babies will be so loved and so wanted. Your chart looks good, I normally manage high temps until 15dpo and then it drops the day AF arrives but I sometimes get brown spotting for one or two days before that while my temp is still high.

Hey Wine, you have written a positive and understandable post, at least, it makes sense to me.

I find the statistics interesting, but I don't ever think they can describe me, and my situation... though, I have another reason for thinking like this. I'm 2 years down a 5 year track to see if I remain clear of cancer. The statistics for bowel cancer survival 5 years after diagnosis is very poor (less than 50/50), but those statistics are for everyone who gets it - including many old and frail people who could die of all sorts of other unrelated illnesses. So I choose to ignore them, and can tell myself honestly - nobody knows my chances.

The statistics for fertility are skewed by all sorts of things. How much money you have, how old you are, what you eat, medical history, family history - I could go on forever.

There isn't a statistic just for 30 year old women with a 29 year old partner, let alone the rest of my life history, therefore, no-one can say what my percentage chance of getting a BFP next month is, so I'll just wait and see.

Love your post wine and it makes complete sense and i found it actually uplifting. I quite agree, sod the stats. We are trying to pigeon hole ourselves somewhere, when actually we have no idea where we belong, where we?ll be next month or next year. Also, i totally agree with there being very few people who never make it. If you?ve ever read some of the earlier threads on MN which I did a while ago whilst looking for people with similar issues to me; you?ll see none of them are on MN anymore. You will come across people who were trying for years and then you will see their name under giving birth to twins thread.
Anyway, i think the fact we have all ended up as regulars on MN suggest we all share similar traits like worry and anxiety and Like wine says I think the healthiest thing we can all do is try and work on our mental and physical health...it may not get us bunned up but hopefully will help us deal with other things.

wine - I?m sorry to hear you are still poorly...ahve you still got a stomach ulcer??

excellent post wine, and also staci you're right that the stats don't take into account our own individual circumstances. TTC is not something that anyone can really make sense of, there seems to be no logic as to how some of us can manage it and some of us can't. wine you're so right that most of us if not all will get there one day and we will certainly laugh about the manuka days.

I don't want to sound soppy but you ladies are the best. I honestly think I would have crumpled if it wasn't for the support from this thread, just knowing that others get what we're going through and do understand makes such a difference.

That's exactly what Im thinking staci. it's hard, and the numbers do get you down but I'm trying to move beyond that. Also, just cos you roll the dice twelve times and don't get a double six, that doesn't lessen your chance on the 13th go...that's what I'm telling myself anyway. I have to say, that going through a cancer ordeal followed by fertility 'challenges' must be pretty hard for you and I hope uoon hope that the universe throws you a break on your honeymoon. I got married this time last year, it was lovely.

I'm not even really trying at the moment. Im still trying to get on top of this suspected stomach ulcer. I'm so tired and have nausea all the time. I'm also a bit worried I've got an infection down there after the lengthy cervix rummaging last month. This is way too much info but I have loads of cm that looks like ov cm but much thicker like jelly . I've had it since the poking around. It doesn't smell at all, it isn't thrush, I've no pain or anything but things don't look 'right'. Have obviously diagnosed myself with PID and written off my tubes! I must be so awful to live with. Seeing doc next week - again! I went ten years without hardly meeting a gp and now the receptionist recognises me!

Cross post with joycepand mrsden. So glad we've all met on here.

joycep I bet if we all met we'd find out that we all have scarily similar personality traits. It's true that a lot of the original posters are not here anymore, I like to think it's because they got their BFP.

On a lighter note.. I'm going to admit to something I probably shouldn't:

When I read "laughing at the manuka days" somehow, and I know this is wrong, I imagine people trying it at the, err, business end... maybe it'll feed the little swimmers and protect them from our defence systems?

I think you've discovered what we all need to try next staci!