I told DD the elf on the shelf was moved around by parents not magic, I think I'm about to become a social pariah

[R0nJ0n]

I don't do the elf on the shelf. What other people do with elves is none of my business, but I personally find the whole thing a bit forcing Christmas magic overkill, and the elves are damn creepy.

DD, aged nearly 8, was asking me about the elf on the shelf this morning as she'd heard about it at school. From time to time I set some of her cuddly toys up in amusing tableauxs while she's at school. There's no pretence it happens by magic, she knows I do it, so I told her the elf was kind of like that and at night a mum or dad puts the elf in a silly situation for the children to find in the morning. After a bit of grumbling about why don't we have an elf (because they freak me out a little and life's too short being the answer) the subject was dropped.

Several hours later I was in Asda and it suddenly hit me, I'd told DD the elves weren't magic, but I didn't tell her to keep that to herself. She's not the sort of child who'd maliciously spoil the magic for others, but she is a pedantic little thing who likes to correct people when they're wrong. Added to this several parents of her classmates take the elf very seriously indeed, they go the full monty with special North Pole breakfasts when the creepy wee buggers arrive, and compose highly elaborate scenarios for him (Is it a boy?) to be found in.

By tommorow morning I'm going to be on the receiving end of some cat's bum mouths, aren't I?

I think it's sad if people think that fun, magic and happiness end around the age of eight.

ReallyTired - ever child is different. my dd finally learnt the truth last year (at almost 11). she had been questioning it for a couple of years, telling us she wasn't sure. but last year she decided to wait up to find out the truth, it got to 1am, the presents were in the loft and the hatch is right outside her bedroom door. we were so fucking tired and couldnt hold of any longer so let the pretence drop. I felt awful though.
ds1 is 6 and he firmly believes in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and the elf (they have one in his classroom this year and he's blown away by it!). I think I will be breaking the news to him at 11 because he's not the type of child to question things. he's the type to just believe anything we tell him and accepts it all quite happily. some children are just like that

That beautiful magical awe that they experience between about 2 and 6.

Oh yes, I remember that well. Actually I remember a hysterical 4 1/2 year old at about 10pm on Christmas Eve, terrified about this man who was going to come into her bedroom in the night. It IS a bit weird when you think about it! I told her straightaway that it was pretend, and we've had horrible boring soulless Christmasses ever since. Oh no, my mistake, our Christmasses have been just as lovely and exciting as ever before.

I tried not to ever lie outright to my kids about Father Christmas (and would never have done the elf) - the story is absorbed easily enough from the world around them. It's all a bit perverse when the people being honest are the ones accused of being spiteful. I had one friend tell me that she cried when I told her the above story.

She's not the sort of child who'd maliciously spoil the magic for others, but she is a pedantic little thing who likes to correct people when they're wrong

Sounds like her mum then! I think you do need to be a little sensitive to others' beliefs with things like this. There's always one kid who has to tell everyone that Santa doesn't exist etc, but as an adult I think you can phrase it in a way that allows DCs to still keep the magic alive for others who do believe.

Does your DD also pipe up in RE lessons that God doesn't exist and that anyone who believes in any religion is wrong? Or has she been taught to respect other people's beliefs and be tolerant even when she doesn't agree?

I know some people will say that Elf on the shelf and God are not comparable, but you know what I mean. Some people find comfort and happiness in their own beliefs and DCs need to learn that there's no wrong and right in that situation.

If the magic and enjoyment of the holidays was never artificially bound up with the literal belief in father christmas, it would never be broken when inevitably that literal belief is popped or diminished.

Receiving and giving gifts, surprises, decorating the home, having a feast, visiting family members, playing games, telling stories, watching films, eating sweet tasty food, recognising the spiritual (if you do), etc are lovely things to look forward to midwinter, whether or not some gifts come from a real father Christmas. It's a time to cosy up indoors, be grateful for what you have, kind to others, reflect and have fun.

It's only a disappointment if you grow up being told the fun thing about christmas is santa really coming to your house then grow out of the belief. Then Christmases change and can never be the same as it was when you had the literal belief. If you never had it, if it was always a story and a game, they are just as magical as ever!

DS has a wooden advent calendar, each night I put a bit of chocolate in and a message (festive things to do/craft/read/watch) . He's thrilled. I'm thrilled (mainly because I had the foresight to fill it one at a time rather than all at once - all doors were opened on day 1)

No need to convince him a creepy looking elf is real... I don't think that would make it more magical.

Mark, yes I'll admit I can be quite pedantic, but not about cherished beliefs. I didn't tell her the elf wasn't magic for any reason other than she was asking about it and why we didn't have one. As I said in my OP, I quite often set her cuddlies up in silly situations for her to find, so the best way to explain the elf to her was to say it's like that. It wasn't until much later it occurred to me I should have told her to keep the fact it was moved by parents to herself.

When I say DD is pedantic what I mean is she likes facts, and finds people getting things wrong irritating, as do I, but I've mostly learned that people don't like being corrected. Constantly telling people that they've got their facts wrong does not make you popular.

I've never told her God doesn't exist because I'm not sure God doesn't exist. I'm closer to agnostic than atheist, and while I can see the harm that religion can sometimes do, I can also see the great comfort others get out of it. I hate miltitant agnostics who seem to take pleasure trampling on others cherished beliefs.

While I do believe in "each to their own" it does make me a bit sad to think of a 2 yr old being deliberately told Santa doesn't exist.

I remember vividly the absolute wonder and awe that Santa had left dresses for my DDs dolls that matched their own new Christmas dresses (which were from us). "How did Santa know?!?!?!?" They were flabbergasted and delighted and it made their Christmas. If they'd known it was just us then I'm sure they would still have loved the dresses but I doubt it would have been as magical.

Ds1 says he lies to the kids in school when they ask if he believes in Santa. He doesn't want them to laugh if he says yes!! I think it's going to be the last year though, ds2 is not nearly as sentimental and will dump it next year I think. Surprised I got him to 7, and never lied, just deflected questions! No one believes in tooth fairy in our house though.

I do the Elf on the Shelf, my 4 yo loves it and believes that is complete magic. My 7 yo less so, but plays along with her little brother - it makes everyone happy though and that's the main thing. I doubt they would take much notice of anyone telling them it wasn't real tbh!

Would a 2 year old even get the concept of Santa being pretend and that everyone's in on the act? Mine certainly wouldn't have. And surely God, Christianity, Jesus birth is all just another myth that people buy into? So are you going to tell your 2 year old that too?

Honestly I've never heard in rl of people telling their dc that Santa isn't real - only in Mumsnet world would I hear such pretentious nonsense. "Yes little Johnny Santa is not real, but don't let on because all the other plebs believe in it and we are obviously more superior as we are honest with you". And yes, that is how it comes across!

Santa is an anagram of Satan

I always remember when ds1 was in reception and a child told the class that Santa wasn't real. The mother like the OP saw it as her being honest with her son, the rest of it saw it as spoiling the magic of childhood.

This is the same child whose parent had told them that a fox had killed our rabbit when I had told ds that it had died in sleep. He declared to son in back of car "so I hear the fox got your rabbit?" To which my ds relied "no you must have heard that wrong it was the FROST that killed her!" and then wouldn't hear any thing else about the matter!!

I wouldn't make a point of telling my 3.5 year old Santa isn't real, but, to be honest, would assume she already knows this. I don't think I ever thought he was real as a child. The whole story is just too implausible, and full of holes.
I don't think anyone needs to worry about another child, who has been told this, telling their own children - this is not the only access your children will have to this information, and indeed, not the most. reliable access. If your children still believe in Santa is real, then they are obviously deliberately suspending disbelief to some extent (nothing wrong with that - they're enjoying themselves), so what a child in their class says to them isn't going to change that. Children tell each other all sorts. They don't all blindly believe each other on every issue.
I'm a Christian (belief in Santa isn't comparable to belief in God - I know some think both are foolish, fair enough, but they're completely different in nature and complexity). The joy of Christmas is, to me, and always was, largely bound up in the religious significance of the celebration, the special services and church events I attend during the Christmas period, etc etc (I do love sparkly lights and food and presents too!) I would say that my dd currently feels similar, in that she loves the church events we'll attend over Christmas, reading the story of the Nativity etc. (obviously totally her decision what she believes with regard to faith - she knows that I believe certain things, and others don't). Just trying to say that Christmas doesn't need a complex construct of an elf and Santa to be fun and magical.

My year 4 and 5 dc still believe. I did think a class of 9 and 10 year olds would have worked it out by now but when I asked dd if any of her school friends didn't believe anymore she said two but that's because they're naughty and father Christmas didn't visit them because of that. I would tell them the truth if they had any suspicion but they firmly believe. I haven't really made a big deal about father Christmas he brings their stockings and a couple of presents while I do the rest.

I do do eots, but it's a fairy called bell. Some years she's been more active then others and the dc adore her. She moves around and takes letters and notes back to father Christmas, sometimes she brings treats from the north pole back.

Lostlala - no,
That's kind of the point, I don't believe that Jesus is a myth, I believe he was a real flesh and blood man who is also God. And I'll be telling my DD that at the moment, though of course as she gets old enough to appreciate that others believe differently I'll tell her that too.
I don't want her to confuse the two ideas, but I am not saying that either every child would or that Santa is somehow Satan - we'll be playing along with the whole Santa game anyway!

Last yr Santa has to leave the presents in the boot of the car.
This year he is allowed in the house but only for a minute

Not too much elf on the shelf here but we are overrun with fairy-doors.
Same shite.

Oh dear, at Satan (and I'm a Christian). I was brought up a Christian, and I'm now still a Christian. Santa didn't damage me. They'd a huge difference between Santa and Jesus, and if you think they're equally mythical you haven't done much research! Santa is something really memorable for kids, magical and special. Part of not believing is growing up, a rite of passage.