Does any one ditched vaccines completely?

[Saku]

in UK or any where else also ..just that question..
and if your have avoided them then how are your children or you getting on ...?

Thanks

OP, in answer to your specific question: my partner has several friends who have not vaccinated their children. They are former students from an alternative medicine course he completed a while ago. To my knowledge, the children of 2 of his friends caught measles. Both fully recovered. I'm not aware of any other health issues. But of course Measles can be an extremely serious illness and result in life changing complications. Some people can die from the after affects years after getting the illness. According to the GOV UK site. most UK measles related deaths after 1992 were the result of complications after the victims caught the illness in the 1980s.

The reason you have received some angry responses is because not vaccinating your child (if there are no health issues that prevent you from doing so) is very selfish for reasons explained up thread. Therefore if someone starts a thread questioning the safety of vaccines or asking for the experiences of anyone who hasn't vaccinated they will not be treated kindly.

Have to say I've never understood the "I'd never let my child go near an unvaccinated child" argument. Would the PP's who live by that rule also ban their kids from playing with an immuno compromised child who cannot be vaccinated?

Um no. You didn't chose to not have your child vaccinated in that case and would be well informed about health and disease if your child is compromised, so would take more precautions and be sensible. Unlike anti vaxxers.

Eastie I can only speak for my own none vaccinated for medical reasons child but I know all the DC he sees are vaccinated because he has only ever been around family.

At 18 months we have never done soft play, parks and he's certainly not going to nursery till he can have his jabs (hopefully this year) I feel he misses out somewhat although we do work round it, go to parks stupid o clock in the morning, lots of walks, time with his cousins etc.

It's a bit shit.

The stand out paragraph from the link about Dr Sebi

"Dr Sebi was subsequently charged with the unauthorised practice of medicine, but a jury found him “not guilty” because it was not persuaded that he was making medical diagnoses or prescribing medicinal substances"

Even OP is saying he's a quack!

We are so bloody lucky to have access to vaccines for some of these deadly diseases. It helps keep herd immunity strong.

Its really basic science.

What is your worry about vaccines?

"Have to say I've never understood the "I'd never let my child go near an unvaccinated child" argument. Would the PP's who live by that rule also ban their kids from playing with an immuno compromised child who cannot be vaccinated?"

The argument doesn't stand up literally. I think instead it's a statement of ostracism against those who simply choose not to vaccinate for no medical reason.
(Those who cannot receive some jabs for medical reasons never feature in memes/posturing)

As someone who works in medical research, it’s really fucking offensive to be told I’m in the pocket of Big Pharma, by people who are strong contenders for Darwin Awards.

OP, I take it you’re also against the use of car seats? I mean, it’s just a plot by Big Car to get parents to spend more money.

Here is other angle on internet 'research' on vaccines which OP needs to be aware of:

www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3739 (Vaccine safety: Russian bots and trolls stoked online debate)

edition.cnn.com/2018/08/23/health/russia-trolls-vaccine-debate-study/index.html

ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2018.304567 (Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate)

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/23/russian-trolls-spread-vaccine-misinformation-on-twitter

The main reason an unvaccinated child would likely be ok in this country is because the vast majority are vaccinated so of course they are unlikely to catch the diseases. The herd immunity is absolutely critical. That is why we must vaccinate.

I think instead it's a statement of ostracism against those who simply choose not to vaccinate for no medical reason.

Nothing wrong with that.

My parents, for some crazy, unknown reason, decided not to vaccinate me. As a teenager I ended up with one of the illnesses you can vaccinate against. I recovered fine and luckily didn’t have any complications, but it was absolutely rubbish being so sick and totally unnecessary. They could have prevented that illness by getting me vaccinated. I’ve since spend a fortune getting various vaccines, because I just don’t see the point in putting yourself at risk of a serious illness when a simple jab can prevent that.

So the OP already has a 5 year old child.

Bit late to be asking about vaccinations isn’t it? He should have had all of them by now...

I avoided MMR until my kids were teenagers.

Flu shot is not like other vaccines Christmas. It’s hit and miss and reformulated every year, with the makers having to make an educated guess about what strains will be going around in the next season. Flu shots are usually best for high-risk populations and school/hospital staff. I personally wouldn’t get one for myself.

Some years it can be as high as 80 percent effective, but if forecasts are wrong, it can be as low as 15-20 percent. In the last decade, it averages around 44 percent effectiveness. So you can absolutely still get the flu after a flu shot.

Please don’t confuse this with more traditional vaccines, which are close to 100 percent effective and are important to maintain herd immunity.

I did, as far as the law of the time allowed. I refused all vaccines bar the then obligatory ones. (Italy)

I got freaked out about stuff about vaccines being reported. Then Blair refused to say if his son had had the MMR. I started reading very one sided articles and sites, got in a right state. I presented myself as informed. In reality I had cherry picked everything that supported my refusal of vaccines and avoided anything that challenged my fears.

When DS was about 4 or 5 we had a holiday with family booked in a few months time in the U.K. Reports started popping up in the press about measles outbreaks back home. One was where my sister lived, where DS was going to be staying, with lots if child focused activities planned where loads of little germ carrying children were going to be.

Something crystallised in my head. I was scared of the known, universally acknowledged risks of vaccination, and I hated my little baby/boy being stabbed with a needle and then being off colour/feverish after. It felt counterintuitive to my primal urge to protect him.

But once it became apparent that the risk of catching a disease with potentially awful consequences was on the rise I got more scared of that than the less convincing anti vaxx stuff I had been consuming.

I went screeching down to the clinic and cried all over the vaccine nurses. They were lovely and worked with us over the years to get DS all caught up. DH took charge of the actual stab with a needle appointments because I am so crap with them. DS didn't turn a hair with calming DH, whereas with me he picked up on my tension. He is all caught up now at 18, had the full free flotilla of optional anti meningitis too. He'll be getting the paid for chicken pox one this summer because he's managed to not catch it. I'll be going to have a chat with the nurses about the HPV vaccine because I'm not sure what the state of play is here, but if he can have it, albeit paid probably, he will.

I have ADHD, can hyperfocus at olympic standard when my knickers are in a twist and get quite obsessive and anxious about things. I still suffer with guilt that when it came to vaccines I placed my son at additional, needless risk because I let the hyperfocus off the leash. I prioritised my fears and dislike of injections/post vaccine discomfort in my baby over making a properly informed decision for my son's benefit, based on reading from a wide range of sources and checking their validity. I just read what supported my antipathy and even when somebody was clearly unqualified (and on some occasions was obviously talking gobbeldygook) I swallowed it whole and uncritically if it was "on my side".

It was not my finest moment as a parent.

In retrospect what would have helped was if those arguing on a grassroots level for vaccination could have avoided the patronising, insulting stance that quite a few took out of irritation and frustration. I entirely understand why that happened. But I don't think I was the only one refusing to vaxx in a highly emotional state, and it became only too easy to ignore or avoid the other perspective when in the first three sentences you felt throughly insulted, belittled and despised.

I believe part of the reason why I cracked and went into swift reversal when faced with measles outbreaks was because whenever I had had enforced contact with the local vaccine nurses they were unrelentingly lovely. They tried to persuade me to let him have the non-obligatory vaccines like the MMR, but despite my bristling and "ready to be confrontational" over emotional manner, were unfailingly polite and kind. Which left the door wide open because I had no concerns of told you so, or being horrible judged as an awful mother when my anti vaxx stance crumbled. They made it as easy as possible for me to be ready to hear them as soon as I started to have doubts over my previous position.

I think there is the possibility that more bees could be caught with honey, rather than the large dose of vinegar that can creep into discussions about vaccination.

They’re probably fine, as a direct result of the responsible actions of the rest of the population.

Apart from the ones who got polio and measels and mumps and rubella. And whooping cough. They’re fucked.

^^ Exactly that.

Very interesting post, cesira . It's all too easy to fall victim to confirmation bias, especially now with the internet.

Coconut oil is poison 😟? Who is saying this ?

This.

A few years ago the mother of a child in my children's (primary) school died of measles. She was of a generation in which a lot of people weren't fully vaccinated - I assume people had got complacent.

CesiraAndEnrico

I get what you are saying, and I suspect my Dc might be around the same age as yours.

Because it was different in the late 90s. The Lancet had just given airtime to Wakefield, the later research that now shows how disastrously wrong that all was had not been carried out, the government chose that time to let the licence for single jabs lapse whilst having a PM who was acting shiftily, and a large group of parents whose elder DC were done on NHS on perfectly effective jab skills that were then being denied to their younger ones.

If the government had administratively renewed the licence for the single jabs and the NHS had been able to keep giving them for another 5 years, the heat would have gone out of the controversy because of the amassing of evidence (that now seems to obvious, but was not there in the late 90s).

What that crappy decision to lapse the licence at the height of a scare, did was leave parents feeling bullied and feed the conspiracies (which still run today) and left a generation of DC with a much higher proportion unvaxxed than had occurred under the previous system where both types were available (before withdrawal, measles vax stats were based any jab with a measles component, there was no pre-Wakefield 'golden age' with high MMR uptake)

The important thing is that DC get the jabs. Going mildly off the NHS schedule is fine, as is following the schedule of your home country (if not British) as is having only one shot at a time, even though that uses more appointment time. Because the important thing is that DC are immunised. And if that means working with parents and their health beliefs (rather than just browbeating them) that's fine too.

Otherwise we have learned nothing of the behavioural aspects of a vaccine scare, and that is an area that the trolls and conspiracy theorists can exploit.

mammmamia yes my ds is 5yo and I have one 23 month old.

Thanks all for taking time to reply but please dont curse my children for any disease or disability. I already have my boy with ADHD(which I believe he got from being vaxx ).

you can have a say to me..baby's vaxx is due in January and I had not made my decision yet. Still have plenty of time. thats why I wanted to look at the things first with those who had (and their experience looks bad)
I will probably go for vaxx as I am not seeing any positive experiences.
May be some people who did it positively are not coming in front and afraid of being trashed by people here. if you did please come forward share your experience.
or if you had bad reactions from vxx still welcome to share your experiences.

Has your baby not already had its 8/10/12 week and 12 month vaccines?

I've just found out that someone who came round on Christmas day has knowingly exposed my 3 week old baby (in addition to a 3 month old baby and a pregnant woman) to the chicken pox virus and I'm livid. I've had to cancel visitors today (who were coming with a baby) and just hope that my baby is still young enough to have sufficient maternal immunity that it passes him by, given that he's too young to even have paracetamol for pyrexia. His 3 month old cousin probably won't be so lucky being that bit older in terms of maternal antibodies decreasing.

already have my boy with ADHD(which I believe he got from being vaxx
Why do you believe that?

I already have my boy with ADHD(which I believe he got from being vaxx)

Love, I'd suggest looking at the family tree first before focusing on the vaccinations. There's a lot from respected medical professionals who focus on ADHD that suggests it might have a notable genetic component.

When I got diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago I came across the hereditability aspect. Obviously as a non doctor it's not my place to go around disagnosing people, but it's pretty clear that there are insanely strong similarities (that coincidentally happen to feature my major and most severe symptoms of ADHD) between me and

my brother
my mother
one of my maternal uncles (the only other with a medical diagnosis aside from me)
two of my cousins (but not the kids of the uncle above)
my maternal grandmother
my maternal great great grandmother (but not great grandmother).

Absolutely jack shit on the other side of the family. It's all clumped on the maternal side and appears to affect a fairly large slice of us, roughly 20-25% ish.

It's been eye opening. It explains a lot of otherwise inexplicable (other than "you utter unforgivable crappot you !") actions and choices. I've been able to forgive 30+ years of hurt in some cases, because I understand better the impulsive mechanics that led people to not stopping themselves from doing what they did.

And I have an entire family history of massive fuck ups to look at and help me work out trip points where I'd be well advised to deploy Anti ADHD strategies ASAP to up my chances of much better outcomes.

That might not be the case for your family tree. You might not have the same potential level of hereditary incidence. But it is worth looking because it provides a fairly solid kind of evidence, which helps in terms of not feeling like the universe randomly picked on you and broke the non ADHD human you allegedly were before.

I'll be honest, I'd had quite a visceral reaction when I considered the prospect of being presented with the idea that I used to be normal, and then got avoidably damaged by something that caused my ADHD.

Part of me went to grapple with the grief and rage at the universe that would cause. So much that could have been avoided, so many outcomes so very different if we had been left undamaged. All that heartbreak, loss and pain that wasn't supposed to be part of who we were. I had drag my imagination back out of the hypothetical because it was too horrible sitting in that aspect.

Another part of me perked up mightly at the prospect of a new "get out of jail free" card to waggle. Cos it's an ongoing battle to hold onto the benefits of taking responsibility for my actions, and there is a Distinct Gremlin in the ADHD whose entire job seems to be looking for ways to relieve me of the burden of doing anything other than deeply sighing about how unfair life has been to me. And then get on with enjoying letting all the other aspects of ADHD off the tight leash I have to keep it on if I want to enjoy life, rather than revelling in the impulse of the moment. Which usually leaves me deep in a self-created mire.

It's just a single, highly individual perspective. So I would suggest having a chat with other adults with ADHD. It might be helpful to you to run the belief of ADHD as a product of vaccine damage (and the potential impact of the spoken or unspoken guilt /grief of a mother who believes her medical choices hurt her child) by them. Once you have a much greater range of reactions you might be better placed to work out what the pros and cons of leaning towards that belief could be for your little lad.