Is this reasonable to ask an au pair.....

[CoffeeAndCarrotCake]

We've found a great girl from Poland who is going to be our au pair, but as I'm new to this, can you tell me if this sounds reasonable (don't worry, I'm thick skinned):

• 8am - 12noon: do housework (general cleaning, cooking for DD, ironing, etc.)
• 12noon: collect DD from nursery and play with / feed her till either DH gets home or bath and bed time at 7

This would be 4 days a week; the other 3 days and most evenings would be her time, unless we asked her to babysit (no extra pay). She'd have own bedroom and ensuite and food etc. No car as she can't drive, but I'll pay for all travel costs and entry tickets to play centres etc. We live just outside of London (inside M25) and would pay £90/wk.

Am I asking too much or being had?! Thanks for the input!

Thank you, kewcumber, that is indeed what I mean.

Madameplatypus, there is nothing sinister in what I said and I certainly don't condone exploitation. You are preaching to the converted here.

At the risk of generalisation, I prefer aupairs from Western Europe because aupairs from Eastern Europe tend IMO to be more focused on the money and prepared to do longer hours (like OP's). In fact, the feeling is mutual because Eastern European aupairs don't seem to like my short hours (25) and correspondingly lower pocket money. I don't tend to hear from them.

You make it sound like aupairs from less developed countries have no choice - actually they do as my recruitment experience shows. It could even be that they actively seek out families who require more hours for correspondingly higher pocket money.

Sounds like market forces are at work.

Once aupairs are in the country, their desirability to employers rise exponentially because they are here and have previous aupair experience. If they are exploited, they can walk and frequently do. Which is why I work hard to keep my aupair sweet. I have never regarded or want the family/aupair relationship to be other than a mutually beneficial one.

As I said, for all I know you are an excellent employer, blueshoes.

We will have to agree to differ. I think that paying somebody au pair pocket money when they are patently not working as an au pair is wrong and that there should be legislation to prevent this. You (I think) would say that it is up to the market to decide how much child care workers are paid.

MadamePlatypus, I am happy to disagree.

I believe market forces work far more efficiently than you think - because EU aupairs are free agents, they are not here illegally, and UK is open and transparent. Families have no special hold over such aupairs. And if the pocket money becomes too low for the number of hours, at some point it becomes more economic for the aupair to work as a live-out cleaner (£7 to 10 per hour market rate) and fund her food and board out of her cleaning wage, than to stay in her role.

As for the issue of legislation, that has not been taken up by the European Committee for Social Cohesion ... read more:

"3. At the outset, the CDCS would like to stress that the employment of an au pair is intended primarily to promote cultural exchange between young people and very rarely leads to situations of domestic slavery, despite the occasional cases of abuse that have been reported.

The European Agreement on Au Pair Placement dates from 1969. It contains provisions ? now obsolete ? on the relations between the host family and the au pair. In view of the small number of ratifications (five member states), the CDCS began by considering whether it would be worth revising and updating the Agreement. The replies to the questionnaires it sent to all the members showed that this question excited little political interest and that very few states would ratify the Agreement even if it were altered."

The European Agreement was only ratified by 5 states, not including the UK.

I have no doubt that exploitation of aupairs does occur, but I would like to think it is not widespread in UK. I don't anyone who uses aupairs as cheap childcare. No person I know who is coming back from maternity leave has ever ever considered an aupair, as opposed to a nanny, as an option. Aupairs by-and-large look after school age children, and the hours are automatically capped by virtue. There is no cultural mindset of using aupairs as cheap childcare.

And believe me, I come from a country that uses Philipino nationals in the very way you describe.

"this question excited little political interest" - not surprised by this - MP's aren't exactly known for their whiter than white approach to employing nannies.

I am also not surprised that there are very few cases of domestic slavery involving au pairs as there is no real way of defining who an au pair is. I agree that most middle class au pairs from western europe can probably raise the funds to get back home in an emergency.

However, the lack of legislation regarding domestic workers is the same lack of legislation that also allows Philipino nationals to be exploited in this country. I don't think many people get away with calling their Philipino's 'au pairs', but there seems to be a trend for calling badly paid eastern europeans au pairs. I realise that I am getting quite far from the OP and am not accusing her of doing this, but I think that the problem is not so much au pairs being exploited, but people using 'au pair' as a euphemism for low paid childcare.

...'I think that the problem is not so much au pairs being exploited, but people using 'au pair' as a euphemism for low paid childcare.'

i think that's exactly it. people using the term 'aupair' for a cheap cleaner-nanny-whatever from a different country. like in that horrendous program on channel 4.

and i from what i know reading on german aupair forum, german aupairs often come with additional money either from their parents or money of their own to spend on travelling etc.

blueshoes - where do you know about all this treaty discussion from? all i know comes from the council of europe website (it's actually six countries who ratified and thirteen who signed)

platypus - i dont think aupair arrangement falls under the labour legislation. as far as i know the only law about aps in this country is the immigration law and the rest is just a grey zone. ( unlike in the us where it is controlled way too much in my opinion.)

catepillar, the information is copied from the link I posted, which is a report taken off the Council of Europe's website.

It could that since the date of that report on 15 Jan 2005, one more country has ratified the European Agreement, to make it 6 ratifications. I believe (from my somewhat rusty recollection of public international law) it is ratifications by the member states that are significant in terms of binding effect, rather than signatures.

I'm slightly baffled why anyone would be berating people on this thread for the "exploitation of au pairs" when no-one here appears to be doing that. Of course exploitation exists in many lines of work but surely it would be as applicable to talk about exploiting migrant workers to pick fruit and veg at terrible wages. I am of course assuming that no-one here does that either.

Whether you mean to or not Platypus your posts do read rather as "Urgh, au pairs how exploitative of you", wihtout being able to point to any instance of any actual poor treatment.

Great - hope all works out well

All the best, jura. It is a promising start.

Glad to hear that you've got off to a good start jura.

I was an au pair. I was very well treated as an au pair. I have been on threads where I have advised people to get an au pair. Most threads in the childminders/nannies/au pairs section do not start with somebody suggesting that they get an Eastern European to work 44 hours a week for £90 and call that "getting an au pair". In the OP's favour, at least she asked whether this was reasonable, but if the OP is asking this question, I expect that there are other people who are just going ahead and doing it. But thats OK isn't it - because the market always looks after young girls in a foreign country looking for low paid work and depending on their employer for housing?

I really, really, really hope that anybody I employ to look after my child is not doing it because the conditions are marginally better than emptying the bins in a hotel/fruit picking.

MP - my latest (have employed APs for 5 years now) experience is that it was very hard to find an AP who wanted to do just the 25 hours for the standard pocket money quoted (up to £80 a week). Every AP wanted more money (up to £125pw!) but was prepared to do as many extra hours as needed. I refused as the AP experience is not about that. In fact, it was so hard to find someone who wanted to be part of our family rather than "employed" as a Nanny, that we gave up with APs.

But Jura, am so so glad that you might have found one of the rare APs out there. Fingers crossed all turns out ok (as I am sure it will).

Madame, "I expect that there are other people who are just going ahead and doing it. But thats OK isn't it - because the market always looks after young girls in a foreign country looking for low paid work and depending on their employer for housing?"

I am afraid you are raging against windmills. Find me the bogeyman.

• No one on this thread is interested in exploiting young girls.
• A few of us have said it is insane to employ unqualified aupairs for a nanny's role and long hours. We ARE mothers after all.
• There is enough anecdotal evidence on this thread that aupairs (yes, even Eastern European ones) freely pick and choose their families, terms and hours.

If my aupair felt exploited for whatever reason and I came to know about it, I would help her find another family or job than have her under my roof. The idea of a slave or cheap childcarer living with my family is morally repugnant.

jua - glad your au pair seems to be working out ok so far

bugger - jura even

must learn to proof read my post first!!!

she brings chocolate - she sounds PERFECT

You are quite right that nobody on this thread has posted that they personally are exploiting their domestic staff. You will be glad to know that I am not stalking any of you so have no idea of anybody's individual situation. I am quite willing to assume that all the people who have au pairs on this thread provide duvets from Designer's Guild, free gym membership, breakfast in bed on Sundays and access to impartial legal advice should the need arise.

As posted, previously I think some people have posted sensible advice. However this is a public message board and if somebody posts that somebody else is wrong to take the advice of au pair agencies on working conditions and responsibilities for au pairs, or that the market takes adequate care of childcare workers because they are free to find another job, then I will argue with them. I think that professional childcare workers are appallingly paid in this country and should not be confused with au pairs or fruit pickers. I am arguing with ideas, not reviewing individual childcare arrangements. Whilst I'm at it, having worked as an au pair, I must have come across a few insane mothers, because I certainly met inexperienced 'au pairs' spending long hours looking after babies.

Perhaps I should just have posted "What Moondog said".

Re the OP post - 8 - 7pm is too much.

Why don't you cut out the morning chores and have her work from 12 - 7 instead (aupair plus basis)?

She will want to go to language classes too.

Sorry, slavery is not legal in this country, no matter how Polish the slave is. You're asking her to work for £2 an hour. You're asking her to be a nanny/housekeeper for less than a 15 year old Saturday shop girl's wage. baby sit for no extra pay? If she has the English and any sense at all, she'll tell you to shove it up your arse.

Jolly good, that's more like it. I didn't read the thread because it was long and boring and the washer was just about to finish spinning.