Is this reasonable to ask an au pair.....

[CoffeeAndCarrotCake]

We've found a great girl from Poland who is going to be our au pair, but as I'm new to this, can you tell me if this sounds reasonable (don't worry, I'm thick skinned):

• 8am - 12noon: do housework (general cleaning, cooking for DD, ironing, etc.)
• 12noon: collect DD from nursery and play with / feed her till either DH gets home or bath and bed time at 7

This would be 4 days a week; the other 3 days and most evenings would be her time, unless we asked her to babysit (no extra pay). She'd have own bedroom and ensuite and food etc. No car as she can't drive, but I'll pay for all travel costs and entry tickets to play centres etc. We live just outside of London (inside M25) and would pay £90/wk.

Am I asking too much or being had?! Thanks for the input!

Yes, it was to you. What I mean is surely a Working Holday Maker worker has to declare her time working, even if only part time and for less than £80 per week because the limits of her visa are that she can work for 12 months. So, I assume they are supposed to sign her up as a worker even at the low rate of pay. But, perhaps I am wrong....

However, she is leaving because of the amount of pay and the way they treat her generally. And not (presumably) because she feels bad about not sharing it with our pal Gordon.

Speaking of which, must go refine my contract and make a reasonable offer.....

Wow! I certainly hadn't forseen the hornet's nest I'd opened! This discussion has certainly opened my eyes to some of the issues surrounding au pairs and nannys, but I do think that some people are objecting to the very idea of an au pair rather than to the specific agreement that any given au pair and their host family have reached.

An au pair does not have an employment contract setting out the exact terms on which they will or will not work. The idea is simply that they join your family as an extra pair of hands in return for a home, food etc. and pocket money. If my au pair cooked me dinner in the evening, I would not pay her for the time she spent doing it, in the same way that I wouldn't dream of asking her for money for cooking for her, or for driving her to the station etc. I think some people are getting too hung up on the finances.

Also, somebody said that they did not believe that a Polish girl would come and work in Britain for the cultural experience. Why on earth not?! We have a wealth of culture and our economy relies on the millions of tourists who do just that. If some decide to get the most out of their visit by living with a host family here and spending a lot less than they would otherwise, why is that a bad thing?

I once lived and worked in Malaysia for a year; I worked 13 hours a day, 6 days a week in return for a room, a bicycle and £6 per week. Did I feel exploited and bemoan the fact that I could have earned a great deal more elsewhere? Not at all - not everything is about money.

CACC i think there are some people out there who would really take advantage of someone coming as an au pair - i know of a girl who was an au pair a couple of streets away (she used to run the mother and toddler group for a few hours each week) who basically had a set amount of food she was allowed each week, she wasn't allowed to eat all the "nice" things the rest of the family ate etc..

agree coffeandcarrotcake. you seem to be a sensible woman. i guess it's your travelling to 'blame' ;) good luck with your new ap.

Jura, so what then, I wonder, would stop an au pair from coming into the UK and working for one family for 12 months and another for the second 12 months of her stay? This questions would also apply to the new tier 5 visa. Seems there is a hole in the system (shocking as that may be).

AN - It is up to the au pair involved to decide whether or not to follow the rules. Where it would be picked up officially is where the employer was paying over NI threshold and registered her for NI/tax - then she'd be unable to do more than 12 months. If she is under the radar then it is entirely up to her to decide if she wants to play the system.

It's the same with the old rules (about to die) when you invited an au pair to get a normal working visa to come and work for you - you followed a certain format to show you had made an attempt to hire from the EU first then set out the invite in a specific format and the AP got the visa with you as a sponsor. Now the rule here is quite clear that she has to leave if she stops workign for your family. Reality though is no-one can enforce that if she moves on to another family. It all slips under the net.

Coffee&CC: Many au pairs these days DO want contracts and fixed hours - in fact you can download standard contracts from most AP sites. I am a bit 50-50 about this - I like the flexibility, but appreciate that AP's might like contracts/fixed hours to ensure they don't get taken for a ride. I do fixed hours myself simply because it helps me organise Nanny and AP and childcare efficiently and all my AP's have preferred that (though all of them have turned out to be fairly flexible in practice despite having standard hours)

I do think that those who only see the headline 25 hours/£60 don't really think it through though before calling it slave labour... it compares very well to other options - stay living at your parents, and work somewhere? boring boring boring. Find a job that pays enough to cover room and bills, and still leaves you with enough hours and money to both eat and socialise? Fabulous in theory but I don't see many jobs paying that much to 18 year old foreigners in practice. Holiday reps get paid similar amounts to an AP but work far longer hours, hotel staff get more but then lose it all when their board is deducted. There just aren;t that many options and providing a safe environment and some family support and enough to give you a social life sounds like a pretty good deal in comparison.

Blueshoes, my German Super AP has offered (without me hinting) to come back next summer, because I'm such a horrid person too .

She has also offered to come back for 2 weeks in her spring break so I can take my DD to Minnesota so we can visit our best friends who have just moved there - DS has SN and would not cope with the long flight.

First week to familiarise herself with the DC again and second week to care for DS (with my DH) for this I will pay her as a nanny, because that is the job she will be doing.

I am 100% confident that she will do a fabulous job, in fact I'm glad she offered as otherwise my DH might have said he would take time off work to look after him. AP is much more capable than DH with the DC!

mamaduke, lol. Your German aupair sounds ace.

Although I don't have dcs with special needs, I look favourably on aupairs who state in their profile (aupairworld) that they are willing to look after children with disabilities. It shows an open mind and willingness to learn and adapt, all good qualities for an aupair.

Haven't read rest of thread. However I think that you are asking far too much. It is quite easy to find out how many hours an au pair should work by looking at any au pairing website. 'Au pair' means that somebody is living as a member of your family, so should be doing a limited amount of work and should have time to do language lessons.

Its basic common sense. Somebody working 44 hours a week for £90 a week hour is earning far less than the minimum wage and more hours than the working time directive. The working rules for au pairs are different because its supposed to be a cultural exchange/language learning opportunity, not a way of getting cheap labour from abroad.

The rest of the thread shows she's revised her hours/pocket money in line with people's responses

www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/emp-in-home.htm

In this country, employers have obligations. Childcare workers are paid little enough as it is. Using au pairs to get round the fact that a day's work deserves a decent wage and the same rights as any other person working a 40 hour week is wrong, wrong, wrong.

that wasn't necessarily directed at the OP, if indeed she has come to her senses.

OP has been very sensible IMO, listened to what everyone said, talked to au pair and is now offering what most au pairs would consider to be a very good deal. £100 plus own room, ensuite, travel and board for 30 hrs a week Don't be so chippy about her.

I wish I had £100 a week spare to spend

I do not think that the OP's new proposal is unreasonable. However, I am very surprised at some of the other posts. It is very, very easy to find people from abroad who will work for a very small wage and won't bother their employer with messy little things like NIC's and sick pay and I don't think it makes much difference whether you find them on Gumtree or by hanging around the lorries at Dover, there is a point where you are not providing somebody with a cultural experience, you are simply taking advantage of the fact that they come from a poorer country. I think that if you are calling somebody an au pair and you are asking somebody to work more than 40 hours a week you have reached that point, however willing your child's new best friend may be.

i think we all agree on tha, madamplatupys.

who on this thread has said that their au pair works more than 40 hours a week? I couldn;t find any but I might have missed it - also couldn't find anyone suggesting they would not pay their au pair sick pay or pay NIC's if they were due. Am I reading the same thread as you.

AS Athene pointed out very few au pairs are here on an au pair visa, but I know au pairs from NZ who come in on a working holiday visa, au pair for 6 months saving their money (easy to save £50 a week out of say £90 when all your bills are being paid) then go travlling for 3 months then do the same again then go home.

I knew a lawyer from NZ who did this.

I think its remarks like this that I find worrying (sorry blueshoes - for all I know you are an excellent employer, but its the best quote to illustrate my point.)

"Your aupair, being Polish, is from the EU. You can agree any number of hours and job description (sole charge, housework) with her. She is free to accept or decline. As you say, she Asked to do more hours cleaning for more pay - and why not? Not all aupairs are here to learn English or take classes."

We do have labour laws in this country. It is not just up to the employer to set terms. There is a loop hole around childcare and domestic workers (probably because MP's like to get cheap childcare themselves). That doesn't make it ethical to exploit it.

I am not anti-au pair. I worked as an au pair.

if you are referring to the 48 hour working week, it is perfectly legal (and indeed standard prcatice now in the vast majority of employment contracts) to opt out of this. Thats not restricted to au pairs.

I read blueshoes comment as nothing more than what it says on the surface - "you are both adults, agree what suits you both, the title "au pair" isn't relevant", I didn;t think she was giving carte blanche for everyone to make thier au pairs 48+ hours a week.

But 'au pair' does have a meaning. It is somebody who does light housework and childcare in return for room, board, pocket money and a chance to live in a different culture and learn another culture. The hours should be pretty much what Quattro and Kitty described earlier in the thread. People go to reputable au pair agencies that set limits for their au pairs like a 35 hour week and draw up conracts because they want an au pair, not cheap labour.

It is also perfectly possible to employ somebody to live in your home and to ask them to look after your children, and you won't have to pay them the minimum wage. You may get away with paying them very little indeed. It is more likely that they will accept this situation if they come from a country where wages are lower. However, this is not employing an au pair.

The money sounds a bit mean for the hours involved, and you ought (imo) to pay her additional for babysitting.

I think the terms, as described, are I am sorry to say 'exploitative' although I accept that this isn't your intention. You wouldn't be posting on here if you weren't prepared to address this I guess.

Think it's a matter of conscience really