Is this reasonable to ask an au pair.....

[CoffeeAndCarrotCake]

We've found a great girl from Poland who is going to be our au pair, but as I'm new to this, can you tell me if this sounds reasonable (don't worry, I'm thick skinned):

• 8am - 12noon: do housework (general cleaning, cooking for DD, ironing, etc.)
• 12noon: collect DD from nursery and play with / feed her till either DH gets home or bath and bed time at 7

This would be 4 days a week; the other 3 days and most evenings would be her time, unless we asked her to babysit (no extra pay). She'd have own bedroom and ensuite and food etc. No car as she can't drive, but I'll pay for all travel costs and entry tickets to play centres etc. We live just outside of London (inside M25) and would pay £90/wk.

Am I asking too much or being had?! Thanks for the input!

If my kids want to be au pairs and find a family that treat them the way I treat my au pairs I don't have a problem in the slightest. I tend to get AP's from Scandinavia where the cost of living is higher than here in the UK, so they are certainly coming for the experience and not the money.

And FWIW I think it is better to pay someone who needs the money than it is to pay someone who doesn't. Would I pay a filipina less than an American because I know she is probably in a poorer situation? No. But if I were to choose betwen the two and the filipina said she'd have no problem doing unusual hours or ironing, and the American said she would only do X and Y for the money, then I would of course pick the filipina. Is that exploitation?

There is a no clear definition between what is an au pair and what is a nanny and there is a complete range of roles that au pairs will find themselves in. With AP's I think you cut the cloth and pay according to experience.

Assuming that people are going out of their way to exploit young innocents is going a bit too far TBH. I seem to find far more au pairs expoliting families and waltzing their lazy way across Europe than I see families expoiting the AP's

We pay our AP 70 per week for 35 hours of which at the mo, 30 is childcare. Its hardly childcare really - more hanging out with the kids 5 adn 7 in the park or at home or at an attraction. 5 hours cleaning is really just to give her sometime to tidy the kids room and their bathroom.

BTW, our AP has a bloody great life with us. I think she has spent less than £10 per week, we take her to the cinema, out for dinner with the kids, to the fair, to the park etc. We treat her like one of the family.

The only thing I would say is that is your DD old enough to be solely looked after by the AP? Mine are older, so they can tell me everything they do and eat (like jam sandwiches only for lunch last week) whereas your DD can't.

As regards pay, I was a rep in a holiday resort and got paid pretty much the same for working similar hours with some really shitty guests. An AP is here for the experience, not the money. If someone wants to come and experience the UK for a short while, its a great way to do that. Bear in mind, that if they had to pay for food, accomodation in a nice house, bills, TV etc in central London or the South East, they would need to be earning £500 per week plus. The £70 is pure spending money.

An aupair is not here for the money. It is for the experience they could not otherwise have because they are unskilled (usually gap year teenagers) and could not otherwise afford the rent and food to live in another country without good language skills. Living with a family gives them a safe and comfortable springboard to explore the country.

Strictly speaking, an aupair is paid 'pocket money'. It is not called a salary or pay, because it is not meant to be a living wage. All their food and accommodation is paid for, so this amount is just pure spending money.

Like OneLieIn's, my aupair, had a fabulous time with an enviable social life. She recently finished her stay to go back to Germany and emailed me to tell me she was missing London within days of going home. She is plotting to come back to London again, if she does not get into the university course she applied for. It is great life - we do try to include her as a member of the family as well as give her enough time for her own activities.

In fact, if anyone tried to apply who was clearly overqualified for the role and had financial responsibilities, I would not even consider them because that is not what aupairing is about. I carefully vet and talk to them to ensure they fit the aupair profile so they get the most out of the experience.

Following on from BlueShoes, you anti-AP's are missing some fundamentals. Au Pairing is a life experience for these young people, NOT a job, they are usually on their gap year. Would I be happy for my children to, as young adults, have an overseas experience like our AP's and learn a new language for free - yes I absolutely would and think it an incredibly worthwhile thing for them to do and an excellent transition from home into the big wide world. Our AP's aren't employees, they are treated as members of our family. They socialise with us, they come on trips out with us, they come away with us on weekends away/holidays if they want to. I pay for them to attend college. Those who are shouting CoffeeandCake down are ignoring those aspects of what being an AP is all about.

FWIW I think your revised agreement with her is more than reasonable.

squiffy - you say there is no clear definition between what is an au pair and what is a nanny

gen an au pair is foreign,normally quite young and does most of the housework and min childcare

a nanny looks after children sole charge and rarely does housework apart from some do nursery duties

This is why i think that ALL nannies should have some kind of qualification - tech anyone can call their selves a nanny - and it really pisses me off

I trained at college and studied hard to get my NNEB

imananny, "gen an au pair is foreign,normally quite young and does most of the housework and min childcare."

I would not agree with the bit about 'most of the housework and min childcare'. I think aupairs are pretty much in it for the childcare - they all 'luuurve' children - and some are more ofay with housework than others.

In my mind, what distinguishes the childcare a nanny does and the childcare au aupair does is that a nanny has sole charge of a child (or more) under 2 for long hours, usually 10-12 hours. An aupair's childcare comprises the school run, amusing older children, or helping with under 2s in the presence of the parent.

Even if someone calls herself or himself a nanny, I am not fooled. My expectations are vastly different for someone I pay £500 per week to someone I pay £55 per week.

I would expect a nanny to be qualified (as you are), have previous childcare experience with young children. Own/Drive a car. Hit the ground running with minimum orientation. Manage a small budget, plan and take the children to activities and playdates on her own initiative, keep the parent informed when necessary, have an arsenal of crafty sticky things to do in the day. For older children, to open the school bag, read the notes, inform parents where needed, help with homework, get that fancy dress for the event, do the poster etc. A nanny is a childcare professional and her pay and responsibilities reflect that.

An employer would be certifiably insane to expect that of a teenager or for the pocket money an aupair gets.

When I say there is no clear distinction between an au pair and a nanny, imananny, what you have done is define the role that is performed, not the person who is capable of performing it.

Is an 18 year old straight out of college with an NNEB automatically a nanny? Well, the title may fit, but the ability to do the job is unproven. And I bet there were people in your class who picked up their NNEB's alongside you that you would not yourself employ in a million years. Just as there were a bunch of brilliant girls as well all ready to hit the circuit and prove their worth.

Is a mother of grown-up children and no qualifications NOT experienced enough to call herself a nanny and to know what is best for my children? Maybe, maybe not. But she certainly has more experience than me so far.

Does a 24 year old with a bunch of A levels who changed career path and then spent 3 years working in a nursery but never got an NNEB have to call herself an au pair? Not in our house. She's the best nanny I have ever met.

Sitting in a classroom for 2 years and passing exams makes you good at passing exams and ought to impart some very good useful information and some work experience which you can build on. It doesn't make you a nanny. A friend of mine has a Norland girl that I wouldn't allow anywhere hear my children.

As I said, you cut the cloth and pay according to the person and their experience.

As an Au Pair is actually a thing of the past (i.e. no one really comes into the UK on an au pair visa) none of these rules and practices being broadcast by the agencies (I can't believe you lot are really listening to agencies! ) are actually applicable to today's au pair/nanny/whatever you want to call your domestic employee market.

If she's got a an Eu passport, a Holiday Maker visa, or the new tier 5 whatsitcalled visa, she is an employee. You can give a job title, description, and pay of whatever the two of you agree on (and of course put in your contract).

Oh, and minimum wage does not apply to live in employees.

However, as we all know, a worker who is exploited can and will go find another job.

I wholeheartedly agree with squiffy that it is the nanny's personal qualities (maturity, common sense, self-starter, genuine love of children) that count a lot more qualifications and sometimes experience. Employers have to judge who would be the right candidate for the role in question.

Jura, good luck with the aupair. Your duties are pitched at the right level for a aupair. If it works, it really works. And your children get an energetic fun-loving older cousin/sister to play with.

Athene, you said it all!

I have seen lots of posts with people complaining about their "terrible" au pairs. What do you expect?? If you want to pay someone £2/3 per hour to wash your dirty toilet or look after your children (and don't say that "hanging" out with children is supposed to be fun !!!) then you deserve for them to do a terrible job. If I was getting paid that much, I would pretend to have done the cleaning when I had not, and I would feed the children chocolate for lunch. If you want someone to do a good job, pay them a decent amount. Hire a cleaner to do your cleaning.
I am sorry, but I do not believe for a second that a Polish au pair is here for a "cultural experience" and is just dying to live with an English family and be their slave. I am sure she is just a naive girl who wants to come here to earn a bit of money, but does not know how to organise her job/place to live, and thinks that this might be a good option.

@ kittywise and others - there is nothing legally saying an aupair is not allowed to have sole charge/ sole charge under 2's or 3's. that is just recommendation from the agencies. some aupairs are more able than others. if you want an ap to have sole charge for a few hours a day, you look for an aupair who is happy and able to do that. and if you want her/him to do more hours, choose an ap who is allowed to do that and is happy to. it about what you agree.
@Ripeberry - aupairs arent generally expected to have a first aid course. but you can always send your ap to do one if you like (guess you should pay though).
@Quattrocento - 20 hours is more likely to be a minimum hours aupairs do, the normal aupairs do around 25 and aupair+ up to about 35( those who are allowed more then 25 by the immigration laws).
@MizZan and squiffy - i like your posts about aupairs versus nannies. i also think that it very much depends on the person, you can have an aupair who has more common sense etc than a (newly) qualified nannies. the qualification doesnt necessarilly mean they are good with children.
@imananny - disagree with you that an ap 'does most of the housework and min childcare'. quite often they look mainly after children. it depends on what is agreed.
@athene - you made me wonder how many people do actually come on the aupair visa these day? it's not all that many countries, is it.

oh dear littledorrit, you really haven't read any of the recent posts patiently explaining aupairs.

Loads of nannies are crap as well - it is not necessarily a measure of how much you pay them. If my aupair was going to do what you described, why accept the role to begin with? The terms and pocket money are all agreed upfront. If the aupair got it wrong, why can't she walk? She does not need a visa to stay in this country and lots of websites like gumtree and nannyjob cater for her.

If it is really as exploitative as you describe, why is it my German aupair wants to come back? Why is it I literally get hundreds of applicants within days of advertising, bearing in mind the peanuts I pay?

Somewhere somehow the family/aupair relationship seems to work, strange that.

Little dorrit, but it is not £2-3 per hour, it is full bed and board + pocket money.

I don't know why I am being drawn into this, it is (as usual) many people with no experience of the situation voicing their opinion and being quite rude in some cases.

I can honestly tell you that my German AP is here for the cultural, well language, exchange. She is studying Economics with world politics and all the text books are in English so she has to improve her language skills.

She is very happy with the amount I am paying her, she has no outgoings and is saving every penny to furnish her new flat that she moves into for uni in Sept.

MS - I know it includes bed and board but if you were employing a live-in nanny or housekeeper (who also get bed and board) then you would be paying them quite a lot more per hour.
I am sure you are fair to your au pair and that the arrangement you describe works well for both of you.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that some people think that having an pair is like a very cheap cleaner and nanny all rolled into one, and they make the au pair do such long hours that it is not really a very fair deal.

"£2-£3 per hour" is indeed very misleading when you account for all the bills someone else pays on his/her behalf.

However, a nanny/aupair can always look else where.

In fact I interviewed a potential nanny the other day who is here on a Holidaymaker Visa. She came in as an au pair to work for £70/week. She was supposed to work about 30 or so hours per week. The family has increased her hours to a full time nanny job (50+ hours per week) and have said sorry but we can't afford to pay you more. The tell (not ask, but tell) her to b-sit on short notice for no extra pay but might give her the morning off in lieu. And so on...

So, she is looking for a new job...

Oh, and they pay her cih.

My AP's work a fixed week of 25 hours (not appx 25 hours, a straight 25 hours) for £70. The going rate for a self contained one bed apartment (our AP's have their own sep accom)is £125 per week plus bills. The cost of feeding an AP I reckon is £35 per week minimum.

Now forgive me if I've gone wrong here, but from where I'm standing an effective net wage of £230 a week, and the private use of a car sounds like a reasonable return for 25 hours of work.

but you do seem to have au pairs who eat an awful lot Squiffy normal ones probably only get through £25

But she's here on a Holiday Maker visa which entitles her to work for 12 months and not 12 months plus additional work so long as you only take in £80 per week.

I would be very happy to be wrong about this so please correct me if I am. But I think 12 months is 12 months and not negotiable.

BTW, this is rather convenient for me because this means she still has 12 in which she can work for me legally.

can i just ask is the babysitting one night a week supposed to be on top of the 25 hours but not paid any more or paid more? we pay our AP £75 per week, she does about 22 hours so we have a couple of hours out on a saturday night to make it up to the 25, she has £25 per month on a mobile, and we are really flexible about if she wants to leave before her hours are really supposed to have finished to go and babysit for someone else / go to a bbq with some friends she has made over here etc. we also started her off with an oyster card with £50 on for travel for the 2 months she is over here.

she has sole charge of ds1 who is 2 when she takes him to the park for a couple of hours each day and when some other friends of mine have happened to see them in the park all have commented to me (without being asked don't get me wrong) that she is great with him.

she does pretty much nothing around the house which actually works well for us.

babysitting in the evening when children are in bed is on top of the weekly hours. you should not expect her to babysit on her days off.

squiffy - i take your point there sre def qualified nannies who i wouldnt leave my charges with if need be(with mb permission) and also nannies who arent qualfified who are good and yes a nanny striaght out from college,doesnt mean she is good

blueshoes - you summed it up perfectly - yes nannys are childcare professionals as are CM's but often neither gets the recognition both deserves

true au pairs are gen for older children, and Jura enjoy saving the pennies as you dont need a full time nanny anymore - sure your au pair will be just fine

catepillar that's what i thought and all babysitting has been arranged a number of weeks in advance. we are very flexible - for instance next week she is having monday and tuesday off as well as the normal weekend as she's managed to get tickets to something in stratford that she wanted to see.

i think there should be give and take and flexibility from both sides, so no one is exploited.

i was shocked when we looked at an agency's t&c's that they had to specify that "the au pair will not have her pocket money witheld for any damage caused by accident nor will her parents be expected to pay for damage caused such as to a car she is allowed to drive" - i was that anyone would even think that was acceptable to do, is what i mean.