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Can I give my nearly naked nanny notice...advice?

149 replies

helpwithnanny · 21/05/2008 18:01

As some of you will know from my previous thread I have been having 'issues' about my live in nanny wandering about half starkers all the time with norks on full display!! She has had a verbal and written warning but hasn't managed to put them away pull up her socks and Im feeling the need to quit and think alternatives. I have been chatting to a lovely lady locally who is a childminder. She is fab. Not only could she have them both for exactly the right hours but she will cost us WAY less than the current nanny and of course offer the benefit of not having a live in hanging about!
What Im asking I guess if what do you think is the best way to break the news to the ex nanny?
I could if I was that way inclined issue another written warning for the norks hanging out at which point I could sack her! (Im assuming anyway as contract states 1 verbal, 2 written). Im tempted as she has been a bit of a moo. But at the same time she is generally a nice girl and this option leaves her homeless (although her parents and boyfriend are both living locally) and I don't want to ruin the poor girls career by sacking her blah blah
At the same time if I give her notice Im stuck with her norks in my face for another month!
I guess I could pay her off but thats a hell of a lot of money!
Cant think of a better way of doing it, being legal and not costing me a fortune.

HELP!

K.

OP posts:
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amidaiwish · 24/05/2008 17:59

well firstly she wouldn't be getting even a penny out of me. i can't believe the OP is even considering paying her wages due when the silly cow has walked out, stole from her and defaced her property.

secondly i would tell her parents, in writing with photographic evidence.

thirdly i think i would report this to the police, not necessarily press charges, just report it so that it is on record incase she does ever come back

and i would let her know i have done this.

charliegal · 24/05/2008 20:17

am thinking this is a wind up too.

paros · 24/05/2008 23:28

I mean lets be honest if some woman was walking in from the garden in a thong and nothing else what would you do . This has to be a wind up .

helpwithnanny · 25/05/2008 09:28

Thanks for your support

Im glad my issues are so laughable that it must be a wind up!!!!!

FYI its not a wind up...nanny employers around West London, if you get a nanny who applys for your job who says she has been temping/ travelling for 4 mnths then be warned. It might be nannynorks!

You have been warned!

OP posts:
ActiveC · 25/05/2008 13:53

I so enjoy being the devils advocate, so here goes;
she walked around in a thong
she stole from you
she gratified your wall
she swore on the phone in front of your children
she let them watch TV all day
I wonder if your treatment of her would have been different, if she been of say North African origin? (because of thread I read before this one) Prospective employers in this field always seem to site 'cultural differences', no matter how qualified/experienced the ethnic candidate is.
Nanny Norks clearly had ulterior motives at play. Maybe she'd planed to seduce your husband then claim sexual harassment? Any she seems to be in need of psychological attention, which I'm would show her to be an unsuitable candidate to work with children. I strongly believe that UK nanny agencies need to invest in psychometric testing, as reputable agencies in the USA do. Helpwithnanny, did this girl have ANY CHILD CARE QUALIFICATIONS or/and sold working experience? Why do you seem so reluctant to make a formal complaint against this girl?

helpwithnanny · 25/05/2008 14:17

ActiveC-

Did I say anything about ex-Nannies racial origin? How do you know she wasn't say 'of north african origin'

NannyNorks has an nvq 3 in childcare, a crb, first aid. 2 years nursery experience and 2 previous nanny jobs! I had no reason to expect that she wouldn't be a great nanny! Im reluctant to make a formal complaint against her as the only logical course of action I could take is informing the police. I have no proof that she stole from me and it seems a very serious thing to do for a couple of duvet covers, a £20 stereo and a camera. All of which I can replace with her wages!

Im also swayed by the fact that we had no problems at all for 4mnths. The children liked her and she did everything a 'good' nanny would do. It was only when the sun came out, the clothes came off and the confrontation started! It was only after her first warning that she became rude and lazy. As a live out nanny Im sure she would not have the issues that she had with us.

I wish she was on this forum and could put her side across. Im sure she would describe me as an interfereing old bag who was jealous of her gorgeous body and insisted she dressed like a nun

OP posts:
paros · 25/05/2008 15:27

The reason I think its a wind up is because I am a nanny (26 years exp) ans I know that if I behaved like this I would be sacked on the spot . Mind you I would be done for cruelty if I emposed my body on your family . (43yrs old and on the larger side with saggy boobs LOL )

Moomin · 25/05/2008 15:38

So at what point does theft become 'reportable'? When she has taken the family TV and you have nothing to watch? Or the kids' duvets so you miss them more?

and if the graffiti had said 'you motherfking muppet'... would that be less acceptable?

Let your next childminder know how many clothes she can remove in front of the dcs/you/dh before it is inappropriate; which swear word infront of your kids are acceptable ("Yes to wank and shit, No to twat and c*nt, thank you very much"), and the value of goods you accept being robbed up to.

Sorry to be facetious, but 1)I;ve had a couple of glasses of vino with the sunday lunch and 2)I am still with the liberalism and woolliness of it all

But anyhoo, good luck with whatever happens...

helpwithnanny · 25/05/2008 17:58

LMAO moomin

Im sure the new childminder will behave impeccably!

I totally see what you are all saying but am not prepared drag us it all out and cause a big fuss over a stupid teenager throwing her toys out the pram.

Paros- I was going to sack her when she walked. She hadn't before that point done anything which 'really' constituted gross misconduct, unfortunatly 'indecent exposure' wasn't specifically listed in the contract...I didn't fancy getting done for unfair dismissal. As an inexperienced employer its very difficult to make sure you don't do anything illegal..you have to tread very carefully! Hence not sacking her sooner. The swearing was the final straw which would allow me to give her her second written warning and then the boot!

I would not waste this much time on a windup!

OP posts:
AtheneNoctua · 26/05/2008 10:10

What a shocking and horrible experience you have had, helpwithnanny. You have my deepest sympathies.

I understand your view that you don't owe anyone anything and that you just want to be done with it and not get involved with a criminal charge. However, I can not comprehend you having even a drop of sympathy for this horrible person. If she is old enough to work as a professional nanny she is old enough to be held accountable for her actions. She is a criminal and future employers can only know this if you record it with the police. But, again, I respect that it is your choice, not mine.

Something I would think about if I were you though is whether she might turn the story around and come after you for not paying her. She might deny having stolen anything. And then take you to court for her wages. And if you have not reported it to the police you might not have a very credible defense. The thought of anyone stooping so low is horrible. But after what you have typed on this thread, I wouldn't put anything past this woman.

What really scares me (selfishly) is that I will be employing a new nanny in a few months time in WEst Londonand I do not use agencies. So, nothing would warn me of her past. Yikes!

But, my contract does list insurdination as ground for immediate dismissal. So, I would be within my legal right to dismiss her on the spot.

Also, I do think what she is doing is sexual harrassment to her employer. And I would have thought that sexual harrassment was grounds for immediate dismissal.

imananny · 26/05/2008 11:44

having gross misconduict in your contract is a good thing but unless it specified certain things, ie being unsuitably dressed/force feeding child ( other thread a while back)then it doesnt really mean much iykwim

i still think you should report your stolen things to the police,and the grafiti on the wall even if you dont press charges but have it on record - just incase you eveer need it.

I do wonder if nanny norks (love that name ) will be in touch to ask for her money,to lose a months wages is a lot to anyone

chalk it down to a bad experience - be interesting to know what the agency said to you/her?

cheapskatemum · 26/05/2008 12:57

My life will be so boring now I won't have this thread to read! Only joking, I sincerely sympathisise, the photo idea was a good one (hope you've got another camera).

Blueskythinker · 26/05/2008 21:19

Have missed the final few posts, but for a start, well done for getting rid of the nanny - what a weight must be off your mind! And I am so glad you have alternative arrangements worked out.

I would definitely recommend the police. You may not be able to prove the theft of items, however, there is proof of the criminal damage. Better to report now, and if you want to change your mind later, then you can always withdraw the complaint, rather than wishing at a later date that you had reported it.

But I amazed that you are even contemplating paying her anything!! Is this pay owed, or pay in lieu that you are considering? Given the gross misconduct that has now been committed, you certainly shouldn't be paying any notice money.

Oh yes, and I agree, take a photo of the damage.

Blueskythinker · 26/05/2008 21:33

And I definitely agree that it is sexual harassment. What would she have done if you or your DH had wandered round half naked?

flowerybeanbag · 27/05/2008 09:29

Just a word about gross misconduct. Most contracts have examples listed of what kind of behaviour would constitue gross misconduct, although it is normal (and sensible) to state that these are examples only, not an exhaustive list.

The key is that if there is some act or some behaviour which means that it is impossible to carry on with the employment, that has caused an irretrievable breakdown in trust, that would normally be gross misconduct. So in those cases it would be fine to dismiss immediately, or suspend immediately pending a hearing if the person has more than a year employment.

But if the behaviour is serious, but not serious enough to make it impossible to continue with the employment, it's not gross misconduct. So if you later decide to dismiss because of similar behaviour, following lower level warnings, then notice must be paid as that is not gross misconduct.

I think at least some of the behaviour exhibited by this nanny during her employment could easily have constituted gross misconduct, so helpwithnanny could have dismissed her immediately and not paid notice. But helpwithnanny didn't consider this behaviour to be that serious, she allowed the employment to continue, indicating that there was not a fundamental breakdown in trust. She instigated formal warnings instead, so she could not later claim that the behaviours actually were serious enough to be considered gross misconduct.

If a nanny or other employee does something very serious and you think there is a possibility you might want to dismiss immediately for gross misconduct and not pay notice, it's imperative that you at least suspend her/him. That way if you decide it was that serious, you will be ok to claim the relationship has irretrievably broken down. If you allow a nanny to carry on caring for your children, you can't then later claim that.

Mtorun · 27/05/2008 09:43

Sorry to hear that you had trouble with ur ex nanny. If i were you I would report her to police as someone said who knows she might take you to court cause you havent paid her month wage. At least you will have a leg to stand on. Also report her to the agency where you found her so that she wont get any job from them(hopefully).

Mtorun · 27/05/2008 09:44

Sorry to hear that you had trouble with ur ex nanny. If i were you I would report her to police as someone said who knows she might take you to court cause you havent paid her month wage. At least you will have a leg to stand on. Also report her to the agency where you found her so that she wont get any job from them(hopefully).

AtheneNoctua · 27/05/2008 09:46

Interesting, FB. So, if you carry on with disciplinary measures in an effort to be a good and fair employer than that continuation can be used as a reason why it is not gross misconduct. I've learned something here.

But, I would suggest that the manner in which nanny departed was in fact evidnce that the relationahip had broken down beyond repair before nanny left.

flowerybeanbag · 27/05/2008 10:22

AN - yes I guess so, the idea being that if it's not such a horrendous thing that you don't feel you could continue with the employment relationship, then it's not bad enough to dismiss summarily without notice.

So you could argue that it's not in the employer's interest to attempt to deal with it, but the argument would be that if continuing is an option, the act wasn't gross misconduct in the first place iyswim?

I would agree that in retrospect this relationship had broken down already. I think helpwithnanny dithered a bit during the whole episode which effectively ruled out summary dismissal without notice as an option for her, although it definitely would have been an option had she suspended the nanny after (for example) the 'get a life' comment, and then dismissed her.

Although this nanny had less than a year service and therefore no right to claim unfair dismissal, she does have a right to claim wrongful dismissal, which is not much, but relates to things like non payment of notice. So if helpwithnanny dismissed her without notice for something which hadn't been considered that serious previously, what she could have done is sued for wrongful dismissal as withholding notice was not fair in those circumstances.

Whether she would have actually done so is obviously another matter, and there would be no 'punishment' of the employer in those circumstances other than being forced to pay the notice. So an employer could take the risk in those circumstances and make a judgement whether there were likely to be any repercussions (legal or otherwise).

Helpwithnanny was keen to be legal and fair, and at the point she was at at the beginning of this thread, I would have said dismissal immediately with payment in lieu of notice would have been the 'right' and fair thing to do.

However given the circumstances in which the nanny actually left, obviously no notice pay need be paid and I think witholding money to cover items stolen and damage done would absolutely be reasonable as well.

Sorry for essay!

AtheneNoctua · 27/05/2008 10:35

I wonder what other people list as "gross misconduct". I think I'll start a thread....

AtheneNoctua · 27/05/2008 10:50

gross misconduct thread here

helpwithnanny · 27/05/2008 18:31

Flowery, thanks you posts were really helpful.

I dithered and messed about when I should have sacked her on that first day

You live and learn. I certainly wont be making the same mistake again. That is if I am ever brave enough to have another nannY!

OP posts:
messycow · 28/05/2008 11:39

call.the.police.

are you of your head? she STOLE shes a thief - a criminal.

tomwill · 02/06/2008 14:08

I've just spent the last 40mins reading this thread. What gets me is how on earth you put up with this in your own home. And I agree that she was sexually harrassing your hubbie - it's frankly disgusting.

If you pay her a penny you're plain daft - she's already walked all over you - why let the cow continue.

I know what you're going through because I've had similar experience so I do sympathize but.....

Mostly I am seriously disappointed you could let this sort of nanny back out on to the job market for potential other families with what you know. And I'm afraid it's morally just WRONG. You have to report her to the police because she'll only inflict herself on another nice families like yourselves.

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