Unassisted Birth Rights

[Nataliejayne85]

Hi!
I was wondering if anyone could direct me to what my rights are to have an unassisted birth in reality.
I met a nurse yesterday who very bluntly said it was illegal to which I informed her it wasn't!
I am not very far along and I am already being wound up by the medical profession, I don't mind being given the information but I feel that I am being bullied which is why I am relucent to have even midwife present (though may consider if funds allow an indepentant midwife but as I don't want to be checked, I don't want to be causing trouble for a midwife RE her legal responsibilties and requirements). Also having experienced bad medical practice in the past I know saying NO doesn't mean NO to everyone and I do not want to be worrying about people not listening to me.
Also can I have other people in the house at the time of the birth or will they be held responsible if something went wrong, even if I refused their help?
Also anyone know any good legal people to draw up paperwork re unassisted birth if applicable?

Thanks

"I'll say it again, I find the intense scrutiny and fuss over the moment of childbirth completely bizarre and out of balance with the rest of life. "

But that is JUST YOUR feelings towards it, doesnt mean just cause thats how you feel, thats how every other mother should feel. I for one will remember dd's birth like it was yesterday and use the experience to birth NO2 if one day he/she comes along. I therefore will NOT be going into hospital again. Hospitals can actually cause more harm than good alot of the times..more intervention that nessessary sometimes.

I do get what you mean about the teeth thing...but physically speaking you cant inflict pain on your own body without having a psychological illness, therefore you wouldnt DIY, you would go to the dentist. Doesnt have to say that you HAVE to go to hospital to give birth.

And yes being born into water actually does help the baby transistion from mum to outside world I believe...being grabbed by rubbery hands and either plopped on moms belly or taken and put on a hard incubator base must be scary...from that of a baby born into warm water, then held by mum and placed gently on her breasts for warmth and security...I know which one I would choose.

You find free birthing terrifying, some women dont, some women are empowered by it and know there bodies can do it...not every woman has fears about birthing alone.

cory OP was also suggesting that she may get an IM and have HB??? Then this would be relevent to the thread and your post right???

"its been known for babies that have had calm waterbirths at home are very calm babies and children as they grow..."

chellesgirl, do you have any actual evidence to back that up or is it just woo?

to nataliejayne, i had one induced birth (waters burst, i've got high bp so they didn't want to leave me) and it was really great. nippy, yes, but really an extraordinary and wonderful experience. i'd do it again in a heartbeat. dd2 was born by cs six weeks early after it was noted that she had stopped growing and that blood flow through the umbilicus was not good. i hope that you'll be accepting ante-natal care, it saved dd's life for sure.

there have been threads on here sharing happy birth experiences, tbh i think we don't tend to talk about them so much because, particularly on a board like this where people come on in obvious pain, it might seem a little insensitive and crowing. but there are loads and loads and loads of us who found it a great experience.

oh if it's just 'i know which one i'd choose' at work, chellesgirl, then i must find out whether dd2 would prefer to be dead or alive (having been saved in a hospital by cs).

Chelles, noone I have seen who has responded to the thread has had any problems with the concept of a home birth with an independent midwife. Nor do I.

Seems there is very little research on the safety of intentionally unassisted births (as opposed to cases of babies just arriving suddenly): this reference is from Wikipedia:

"One of the few, and perhaps the only, formal investigation of the mortality rates associated with the practice was conducted by the Indiana State Board of Health in 1984, among members of a religious community in Indiana. The investigation found a perinatal mortality rate 2.7 times higher, and a maternal mortality rate 97 times higher than the state average. In this community, pregnant women receive no prenatal medical care and deliver at home without medical assistance. This community avoids not only prenatal medical care but all medical care.[15]

15.^ "Epidemiologic Notes and Reports Perinatal and Maternal Mortality in a Religious Group -- Indiana". Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (Atlanta, Georgia: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) 33 (21): 297?8. June 1, 1984. www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000345.htm. Retrieved 29 Apr 2009."

One would of course like to check these figures in the original article to see that they are actually correct and to read up on the group in question to check that there are no other factors which might influence this outcome.

Found the abstract and the figures appear to be correct.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6507508

that article has no effect on my views what so ever...for one it entails none of the women had any medical care at all from the get go...here in UK we have much medical care thanks to discoveries in medical science, our women do not go untouched their whole lives by a doctor or someone else in the medical profession.Dont forget to mention that they could have poor nutrition or live in poverty??? Wikipedia is not a good source of information..you have to go right back to the original source.

There is little research on unassisted births because mothers havent let anyone use them as thier statistic, which is probably one of the reasons that they choose to gave a UC anyway. We dont get to hear about it, cause these people are very private.

There are no actual stats for UC's. www.associatedcontent.com/article/109993/what_you_should_know_unassisted_childbirthfreebirth.html?ca t=52

I found these : UC's stats

Chellesgirl: the link I supplied in my second post was the abstract from the original journal. This will have been written by the authors themselves as abstracts of scientific articles are, so it is the original source; it is what the authors themselves decided was their conclusion.

They did not mention nutrition, but they did specify that these mothers were on the whole well educated, so it is perhaps less likely that they were living in poverty.

But I agree, you would want to know other factors too.

nono they didnt say well educated dont make assumptions they said ' minimum of high school education ' thats not to say they are well educated - do you know what indiana high schools are like??? Do you know what they teach and how many of these ladies giving birth were taught human biology???
It also only included women in a certain religion and no other female that lived outseide of that religion and freebirthed. I just think that you cant base whether a UC is safer on a study of a few people in indiana.

Hi Nataliejayne,
Since I had an completely accidental unplanned homebirth 8 mths ago, almost unassisted, as my doula lost it and the doctor was only there during the last five mins, I just thought I'd say you really need to be careful. I have a serious fear of hospitals, and my first birth 3yrs back was a rotten experience so I know how you feel and it's natural to want to do something on your own that your body is designed for.

BUT, I wonder, have you given birth before? Natural childbirth has an art to it. Everything has to be completely smooth and perfect for you to achieve it safely. At least hire a doula. To be honest that's almost the same as being on your own, mine didn't know what to do things moved along so fast.

At the legal end of things, they recently made it illegal in Germany, elsewhere I don't know. It's a lot to take on, I know during the first week of bonding with my baby I took the risk I'd taken (by not getting to the hospital) pretty badly even though everything turned out fine.

What's wrong with having a mw or doula with you? Sorry bout long post. Best of luck.

speaking as someone who is terrified to labour in a hospital, i suggest you

find a doula, trainee doula or at least someone who is willing to act as a birth partner and/or who has had a home birth and is really up ante natal knowledge and care to speak to while you are pg.

write a birth plan that will make touching you as minimal as possible. I wanted no one to touch me at all. I even barked at my own husband to leave me alone. poor man was only trying to be helpful.

bone up on your knowledge of pg and childbirth. read Ina May Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth for starters.

wait as long as you can to phone the midwives.

Oh, if you can, book a holiday to The Farm, Summertown Tennessee which will include your due date and beyond.

"The investigation found a perinatal mortality rate 2.7 times higher, and a maternal mortality rate 97 times higher than the state average"

That's fascinating! I'd love to know how big this community was - how many women were involved in the study. In the UK the maternal mortality rate from causes directly relating to pregnancy and birth is 6.24 per 100 000 - so very, very rare. And most of those were from thromboembolism related to surgery. In a community with only a few thousand members even one maternal death could probably result in a statistic of 97% higher maternal mortality.

Not arguing that unassisted birth is safe or a good idea by the way - just very interested in how risky it actually is! A very large minority of women (in some hospitals it's actually the majority of births) these days have major interventions in childbirth - forceps, ventouse, oxytocics, c/s, and it's inevitable you're going to come away from that thinking - it was necessary to save my life and my baby's life. I don't think though that this really gives us a clear picture of how risky birth is. Because you look at somewhere like The Farm and see that their c/s rate is something like...... oh, can't remember exactly - was it less than 2%? What does that tell us about our c/s rate of 1 in 4?

"noone I have seen who has responded to the thread has had any problems with the concept of a home birth with an independent midwife."

The OP needs to be aware that if they choose an IM then the birth will not be covered by any insurance if something should go wrong..

TrickyTeenagersMum said "Childbirth is not that big a deal, it's just something you have to do to get the baby out. If you come out wioth a live baby and in one piece yourself, then surely that is a good - or good enough - birth - by definition."

That's really not true though. For many, many women, how they give birth affects them for life. Often, women remember more details about the births of their children than they do about their wedding day or other special days. It can be a defining moment for many women when they face the greatest pain of their lives and find their body can do something it has never done before.

Birth trauma is horrendous and can have very long term effects. It is often linked to fear and isolation during birth, a sense that a woman wasn't cared for adequately, wasn't listened to or was violated. It can lead to post traumatic stress disorder and postnatal depression and can cause long term depression and anxiety. This is without even considering the long term physical effects.

On the other side of the coin, a great birth experience can be elating and empowering. It may be your experience that it's 'all in a day's work' but for other women, it can be life altering for better or worse.

For this reason, I support the OP to birth however she chooses and that choice should never be hindered by law.

But I would beg her to make sure it is a truly informed choice. I wouldn't consider birthing without a midwife. And there are lovely independent midwives out there who will work with you, or hover in the background just in case they are needed.

Someone asked why vaginal examinations might be refused in labour? Answer: Because they hurt, they're intrusive, they can encourage infection and because they don't tell you all that much you don't already know.

Why are we not allowed to talk about Janet Fraser?

Because it went wrong? Because it actually does back up my point? IIRC she laboured for over 5 days on her own, refusing to go to the hospital or get assistance and then the baby dies and you want to debate that it could of died anyway? Yes it could have, v v unlikely though.

I agree@mii.

I think the death of Janet Fraser's birth is very relevant to this debate.

I don't for one minute advocate this idea that birth is a dangerous thing, to be feared and meducally managed to the Nth degree. But it is unpredictable. No amount of 'positive thinking' and ignoring the risks can change that.

I have a lovely friend who had three completely natural home water births that went unbelievably smoothly. We used to laugh and joke that she literally just popped them out (she did - I think her longest labour was 10 hours from first contraction to birth, 11lb baby, not a single stitch). She was very low risk, all her pregnancies were completely trouble-free.

However, her fourth child had the cord wrapped around his neck and needed to be resucitated as soon as he was born. Thank God for the speed with which the atending MW acted, or he would have been dead. He was completely blue and not breathing for a scary amount of time . Ecven with the speedy action of the MW it is likely the little boy will be brain damaged .

I just think women should approach birth with some respect for the risks. Nature is a powerful thing - you can't always control it and it can sometimes be cruel.

Sorry, the death of Fraser's baby

By seashore Sun 28-Feb-10 02:12:25

"BUT, I wonder, have you given birth before? Natural childbirth has an art to it."

I agree. It was only able to have the "perfect" birth 3rd time round, after two failed attempts. I had to learn how to give birth naturally.

mii and tabitha if your relating back to my post about JF I didnt say you werent 'allowed' to talk about it (you have freedom of speech dont you )

What I was saying, although you think it might be relevent to the debate...that lady was 1 lady in how many million that give birth unnassisted in the world! How can you compare that??? No one can use it to scaremonger...you can however use it to say 'this could happen'...BUT at the end of the day, by Law natalie would have every right to birth how SHE wants and the health of her and her baby would be in her hands and no one elses - and while I think that something bad could happen...it could well be a positive experience if she clud herself up on pregnancy and labor as well as birth and post partum care...took antenatal classes and prepared herself for any risks that MAY happen.

"At the legal end of things, they recently made it illegal in Germany, elsewhere I don't know." I have already stated the actual Law on giving birth in the UK within this thread just so you can read up on it

I think the point is, Chellesgirl, that Janet Fraser was about as clued up as it is possible to be on unassisted childbirth.

Of course it doesn't follow that all women who have unassisted births will lose their baby, or even have any difficulties at all. But to not factor in that you may need some support at some stage from someone - midwife, doula etc - during the birthing process just seems completely foolhardy to me.

What's more important, after all - a healthy mother/baby at the end of the birth, or a prize for giving birth alone?

And in my case...I wish I had not listened nor had the midwife do what she felt was best for me and I wished she has let me birth alone. natalie can have this...but some MP's seem to think that they dont need to listen and that they know best.
From my opinion I would have a homebirth with a IM and this is what I will do next time around...jus because I feel that you get more 'attention' from having one midwife throughout your preg and birth this way.

Exactly why Tab that Janet Frasers baby was more likely to have had a birth defect/chromosonal abnormality for the reason it died...no one knows the real circs about why her baby dies, Cardiac arrest is what the tabloids say...cardiac arrest is purely just 'dead' not a illness or disease that may have caused the death..if we knew WHY the baby had died then we may be able to judge her particular circumstance and use it within this thread.

No, no idea why Janet Fraser's baby died.

But no amount of monitoring through pregnancy can ever account for the unpredictable twists and turns of childbirth, Chellesgirl. Surely you take that on board?

In my friend's case (mentioned above), the cord wrapped itself around the baby's neck at a very late stage in the birth process. In the case of another cloe friend of mine, her cervix ruptured (no clue as to why - it was completely normal and healthy all through pregnancy) and she almost bled to death.

I am not trying to scaremonger - and I realise these are just anecdotal examples from my own life - but these things do happen. To suggest that we can control and predict how birth will progress is to deny the force and power of nature.

This is the problem I have with those who take the 'natural birth; thing too far.

Of course I take that on board and MY opinion is that certain things can be predicted and given care for...some things can be prevented by not going to hospital/having intervention...women nowadays do underestimate the fact the female body is designed to do what it does...
But I also have have read up on the knowledge (before I had my dd) about the reasons why so may mums have difficulty in childbirth...Pain, fear are the most common causes of intervention...intervention is one of the biggest causes of death in childbirth. i truly stand by your opinion that in todays society, with lack of knowledge and not have gone through birth to start off with before maing this decision the OP may stumble across some awful circumstances that may have been prevented. Which is why I think she should give birth at home, with an IM just in case.

the OP says she's not very far along and is already being wound up by the medical profession, she also says that she has experienced bad medical care in the past.

first thing she should do, imo, is seek counselling and closure for her previous experiences, that's her major responsibility right now, to deal with her own issues before bringing another person into the world. the child will almost certainly need medical care in future, and she could do with dealing with her attitude to the NHS.