Unassisted Birth Rights

[Nataliejayne85]

Hi!
I was wondering if anyone could direct me to what my rights are to have an unassisted birth in reality.
I met a nurse yesterday who very bluntly said it was illegal to which I informed her it wasn't!
I am not very far along and I am already being wound up by the medical profession, I don't mind being given the information but I feel that I am being bullied which is why I am relucent to have even midwife present (though may consider if funds allow an indepentant midwife but as I don't want to be checked, I don't want to be causing trouble for a midwife RE her legal responsibilties and requirements). Also having experienced bad medical practice in the past I know saying NO doesn't mean NO to everyone and I do not want to be worrying about people not listening to me.
Also can I have other people in the house at the time of the birth or will they be held responsible if something went wrong, even if I refused their help?
Also anyone know any good legal people to draw up paperwork re unassisted birth if applicable?

Thanks

sorry, i don't understand, why are you swearing at me? i just said that i thought the gist with birth plans was that the other parent had something to refer to if the mother wasn't up to being assertive about what she wanted.

re your feelings towards the nhs etc, i guess i'm basing my impression on your other thread a few days ago about the outlaw births film and the fact that you are training as a midwife in the uk but plan to move abroad immediately the nhs has trained you and open up a natural birth facility with your mum.

and your point at bringing this up into this thread is??? I didnt swear @ you, I swore...are you offended by the word Fuck??? If you are im sorry... Ill change it to wtbhays??? yes???

If you can tell me that I should have 'spoke up' for myself while I was having practically an emotional breakdown after my wonderful birth I have every right to be angered...If I said something rude about your own birth youd do the same back.

Dont try and start an argument - I fully agree the OP should get help for her feelings, I also feel that she should be able to decide what she wants...just because you have a good expreience with lovely NHS staff is not to say everyone else will and does.

"Can't you just book a homebirth and call the mw very very late? "

Yes of course you can and as I said it is not illegal to give birth alone anyway so there's no issue on the legality unless you have someone helping who isn't a trained midwife like the private midwives I hired who came to the house, delivered one baby and then did the other in hospital as I said above.

The more important issue is whether it's safe. You have a fundamental right to put your child's life at risk. It is not even illegal in the UK to commit suicide when you're 9 months pregnant etc and that's as it should be but that doesn't mean people are wise to take some risks.

but i didn't in any way say that you should have 'spoke up' for yourself after the birth. quite the opposite, if anything, i said that i thought the point of the birth plan etc was that it allowed other people to be assertive on your behalf.

i've just checked my last few posts to you and you are most definitely responding to things i haven't posted. and i bring up the other thread because you asked me what made you think i had an 'attitude' to the nhs. (although if you look at what i had written first of all, you'll see that i didn't use 'attitude' in a loaded fashion at all so again that was you responding to something i hadn't written.)

tbh when it comes to threads like this, i think it's best to be honest about motivation etc. clearly your experience in hospital is provoking you to make profound life changes, and imo it's fair to mention this.

xenia if the OP will be having good pre-natal care and is healthy in herself, a low risk pregnancy it is much safer to have a HB with a MW than going into hospital to give birth.

I would just like to quote some evidence supporting this:

by T A Wiegers, M J N C Keirse, J van der Zee, and G A H Berghs
BMJ 23 November 1996; 313: 1309-1313.

'Conclusions: The outcome of planned home births is at least as good as that of planned hospital births in women at low risk receiving midwifery care in the Netherlands.'
'In multiparous women, perinatal outcome was significantly better for planned home births than for planned hospital births, with or without control for background variables.'

Ursula Ackermann-Liebrich, Thomas Voegeli, Kathrin Gunter-Witt, Isabelle Kunz, Maja Zullig, Christian Schindler, Margrit Maurer, and Zurich Study Team
BMJ 23 November 1996; 313: 1313-1318

'During delivery the home birth group needed significantly less medication and fewer interventions whereas no differences were found in durations of labour, occurrence of severe perineal lesions, and maternal blood loss. Perinatal death was recorded in one planned hospital delivery and one planned home delivery (overall perinatal mortality 2.3/1000). There was no difference between home and hospital delivered babies in birth weight, gestational age, or clinical condition. Apgar scores were slightly higher and umbilical cord pH lower in home births, but these differences may have been due to differences in clamping and the time of transportation'.

UC and planned

I think that the general consensus on the whole thread is that there is A LOT of middle ground between a hospital medicalized birth and free birthing.

To go down that route having never even given birth before, on the basis of anecdotes and stories would be foolhardy and I would hope that did anything happen you would be prosecuted

Motivation: my motivation for a natural birth, my opinions on natural birth all came before I even was pregnant with dd. The hospital have not cluoded my thoughts or judgment, theyve just reinforced them thats all.

i don't think you can or should extrapolate your experiences in giving birth on the NHS to all women in all hospitals.

fact is chelle, you are so disillusioned with the NHS yuo wont be practiscing within the NHS as a MW, so i dont think you can say your thoughts/judgements have not been clouded

the op, if she is a primip, has some serious issues to work out re giving birth, if she is considering freebirth.

a planned homebirth for a low risk pregnancy is safe,

an unassisted birth for a first pregnancy might not be as safe

especially iwthout antenatal care, good , cosnsistnet ante natal care ahs worked wonders in reducing perinatal mortality

i thought you said you'd had a natural birth? i don't understand. you do come across as still very angry about it, and tbh i would hope that you would deal with that before you begin your new life as a midwife.

what happened to your midwife, btw, was she disciplined? if she was falsifying medical records, she would have been i imagine. what did PALs say?

in canada

So far, the largest and most complete study on the comparison of hospital birth outcomes to that of homebirth outcomes was done by Dr. Lewis Mehl and associates in 1976. In the study, 1046 homebirths were compared with 1046 hospital births of equivalent populations in the United States. For each homebirth patient, a hospital-birth patient was matched for age, length of gestation, parity (number of pregnancies), risk factor score, education and socioeconomic status, race, presentation of the baby and individual major risk factors. The homebirth population also had trained attendants and prenatal care."

Hospitals Births had: # 3x greater chance of a caesarian section(with a hospital standy option for homebirths.) # 20x greater use of forceps # 2x more use of oxytocin use(greater tearing and need of repair.) # 6x more infant distress in labor # 5x more cares of maternal high blood pressure # 3x greater incidence of postpartum hemorrhage # 4x more infection among the newborn # 3x more babies that needed help to begin breathing # 30 cases of birth injuries, including skull fractures, facial nerve palsies, brachial nerve injuries and severe cephalohematomas. # There were no such injuries at home.

Baby of chiropractor in seattle born at home. The infant death rate of the study was low in both cases and essentially the same. There were no maternal deaths for either home or hospital. The main differences were in the significant improvement of the mother's and baby's health if the couple planned a homebirth, and this was true despite the fact that the homebirth statistics of the study included those who began labor at home but ultimately needed to be transferred to the hospital. The conclusions drawn by homebirth and midwifery advocates across the United States are unanimous. For normal maternity care, a homebirth attended by a trained midwife is safer than a hospital birth.

see full article here

Nobody on this thread has said that they were against the idea of homebirth supported by a midwife. I would even go so far as to say an experienced doula would be sufficient. Just not alone.

chelle, i can't take seriously data from 1976 !! that is over 3 decades ago.. the NCT did a massive study into homebirth far more recently..

i don't think anyone on this thread needs convincing of he safety of a planned homebirth with a MW attending.

it is the concept of free birth that is problematic.

I am certainly not anti home birth and my last child would have been a homebirth had it not been twins and indeed 50% of the twins as it were was born at home and he was then a visitor to the hostpial when his brother was born 7 hours later in a different London borough and I was happy with those births.

But unattended birth although for many of us it may appear natural (to be silent, alone, in the dark when concentrating on giving birth as a woman which is certainly appealing to me) is risky. I am very glad that under English law women are allowed to take that risk but most cultures probably for good reason have had some kind of birth attendant on hand and if you can afford it a private midwife is probably better (or an NHS midwife) than doing it entirely alone. But part of wanting people to have rights to advocate for them to have rights to do things we don't always approve of and I think in a free society particularly where the principle is established in law that women in effect own their own bodies even if that risks an unborn child is a good one we should all support.

You assess your own risk factors and take a view and make your own decision. It's good women have that right. Twins are risky. Plenty of them come very early and a lot have disabilities. Therefore our plan was to have them in an NHS hospital but with the private midwives and come home the same day. One came sooner and that was great and his twin wanted to stay in there so we went to hospital and that birth was fine too and got home the same day. I think if you liek your own house, power, control, environment but feel bound to have a hospital birth or have to mvoe to hospital during labour because it's going wrong then do consider early release - the 6 hour transfers back home I had were brilliant.

even an experienced doula cannot deliver a baby, not instead of a midwife, but could catch the baby if the MW or ambulance had not arrived. acting deliberately as a MW when you are not a MW is illegal.

You can legally have an unassisted birth (ie without registered midwife or doctor) but if there is even anyone else in the house they can be prosecuted.

I have had 2 birth centre births in hospital MLUs and they were both "unassisted" in that no one delivered the baby (apart from me) either time.

The 2nd time round with DS, no one touched me at all - yes they took my temp and blood pressure on arrival and listened to baby with a doppler on arrival, and at several points during the labour, but no one suggested any internal exams and I birthed and caught the baby myself in the birth pool.

With DD, I did have internal checks (my choice I was less confident as it was my first) - but still they were very hands off, and I was glad I was in hospital as DD born very blue and not breathing (and I only had G&A and moved around loads, and it wasn't especially long labour), midwife didn't manage to resuciatate with oxygen and they called the crash team who arrived in 30 seconds. Luckily all was ok but I was very glad I was not at home.

For DC3 I will hopefully be having another birth centre birth (in big hospital MLU) and I will make it clear again that I would like an unassisted birth. After my experience with DD I just can't comtemplate a home birth.

I agree with FD. The only thing I'd add is not to be too prescriptive, accept things may not go as you choose and don't be too worried if at the end of the day you do end up in hospital. No one can entirely predict how a birth will go. My mother was very in favour of home births in the 1960s, early NCT member etc and after insisting on leaving hospital the day I was born had the other babies at home. First births are often the more difficult however.

no she wasnt disciplined...I would show you the full letter in response to my complaint but its 6 pages long.

Angry maybe, dont I have a right to be angry? would you not be angry if someone delibrately 'forgot' about your 'not being able to breathe properly baby'???

See lulu and aitch...you both seem to be able to give personal digs...just stick to the facts here.

ait..I did have a natural birth, whats the point your trying to make???

Ive 'dealt' with it...if you call councilling, and therapy, 18 months of a reactional disorder and anxiety 'dealt with'...I can still feel the way I do about my own personal situation as a mother and not as a midwife (one day). As a nursery nurse and nanny Ive always been able to forget my own 'feelings' when it comes to the families in my care...its called professionalism...which I shall carry with me whereever I go. I will not tell people of my story nor will I secretly try and convince them either way...Can you please see my point as a mother and not as a 'student midwife'...are you a professional person??? Do you get angry or upset some days??? do you inflict them on your clients/colleuges???

what personal digs??

mentioning that your view might well have been clouded? saying that the reserach you posted is out of date?

if i have made a personal dig, i do apologise, but i don't see where i have

why cant you take evidence from 1976??? Just because it was 30 yrs ago doesnt make it less of a fact does it??? Healthcare has improved since then...so why is it still...that homebirths are as safe or safer than a hospital birth???? It was safer then and its still as safe now.

In my opinion - and this is just my opinion and I know that not everyone feels this way -having a baby is much more than the birth itself.

I have never understood why people get so het up with the way their DC came into the world, if they are healthy and you are medically fine afterwards then success all round.

Freebirthing just seems to be more about what the woman wants than about the baby's needs.

I also do not believe that how a baby enters the world determines their outlook on life???

DD was with forceps as she got stuck, DS was an emergancy section as he was so massive and back to back - was 11lbs 9oz and they are both very chilled out happy childre.

because tehre is more up to date data to support what you say than from 1976 , think how different maternity services are now, than then.. also, no-one is arguing with teh safety of a planned homebirth.

episiotimies used to be routine, as was a shave and an enema.

women used to have to have 'twilight sleep' to give birth

that and many other things have changed over the last few decades. so i think using more up to date research is better, after all, i could probably find something that supports that a routine episiotmy is better.. whereas now we are aware that a natural tear heals better and routine episitomies are pretty much unheard of

just want to reiterate.

i fully beleive and accept that a planned homebirth with a MW on site is as safe, or even safer fthan hospital birth for a low risk woman.

the issue here is with freebirth/unassisted birth.