Unassisted Birth Rights

[Nataliejayne85]

Hi!
I was wondering if anyone could direct me to what my rights are to have an unassisted birth in reality.
I met a nurse yesterday who very bluntly said it was illegal to which I informed her it wasn't!
I am not very far along and I am already being wound up by the medical profession, I don't mind being given the information but I feel that I am being bullied which is why I am relucent to have even midwife present (though may consider if funds allow an indepentant midwife but as I don't want to be checked, I don't want to be causing trouble for a midwife RE her legal responsibilties and requirements). Also having experienced bad medical practice in the past I know saying NO doesn't mean NO to everyone and I do not want to be worrying about people not listening to me.
Also can I have other people in the house at the time of the birth or will they be held responsible if something went wrong, even if I refused their help?
Also anyone know any good legal people to draw up paperwork re unassisted birth if applicable?

Thanks

surely acting as a midwife and assisting as a birth partner at an unattended home birth can be defined.

think of what birth partners do in hospitals. they'd do about the same at home, won't they?

If a birth partner started to use a fetal heart monitor or do a VE, administer pethidine at home or in a hospital then they are acting as a midwife.

It they are helping a woman into a birth pool, or get on all fours, setting up the TENS whether in hospital or at home then they are providing comfort as a birth supporter, not acting as a midwife.

I don't think the lines are as blurred as some people here are insinuating it is.

No cory is right.

Human primates are terrible at giving birth. We have large heads, long labours and,once born, are utterly helpless.

But we are fantastic parents which means our offspring have a greater chance of surviving yo adulthood and spreading their genes. Mate selection isn't only about selecting the healthiest partner. We also select a partner/s who will make the best provider/ parent.

Op I can tell you any number of stories about friends whose babies lives were saved by medical professionals but you probably heard it all before.

I would urge you to consider a home birth. Friends gave gad very good experiences this way.

I thought that purposely giving birth without a midwife was illegal

It should be if it isn't. No you don't have to have V/E if you don't want to, but dispensing with a midwife because you feel like you are being 'wound up' is immature and reckless.

I would love to know what you intend to do if say the baby needs resus and you are hemorrhaging or unable to assist?

By home birth I meant with midwife.

And just because it's legal, it doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. Or even morally right.

You should google Janet Fraser who is a huge advocate of unassisted birth. And then you should stumble across the fact that her baby actually died during a unassisted birth.

And before you think I am some hospital/medical loving type, please be aware that I am actually booked in to have my second homebirth in about 6 weeks. I love natural childbirth and spend most of my time in labour alone, but to dispense with any kind of emergency assistant is lunacy

Is this a joke thread ? Where's op gone ?

This has to be a joke post.....I can't imagine any mother so willingly putting her and her baby's life at risk because she doesn't like being 'wound up' by the medical profession. How stupid, rash and immature.

OP -- there are countless women in the developing world who would kill to have access to the medical care you have at your fingertips. If you are indeed serious, you need your head checked and to grow up very quickly.

This is no longer about you -- as a future parent it is your utmost responsibility to bring this baby into the world in the safest way possible. What you want to attempt is incredibly risky and I don't know how you would ever live with yourself if something terrible happenned.

It can't be illegal, if it is it would be a completely unenforceable law, much like the madness that is going to make miscarriage illegal in Utah.

I think you are crazy to even consider such a thing, but I also believe you have an absolute right to do so.

There must be a middle ground where you can be happy?

mii why should it be illegal?
By it being illegal there obviously has to be a penalty, so what do you think should happen to a woman who dares to give birth alone?

you say 'dares to give birth alone' like she is fighting against some tyranny.

I say 'puts her unborn childs life at risk' because that is exactly what she is doing

Much the same as I agree with doctors being able to obtain a court order when JW won't allow their children to have blood transfusions. If you want to put YOUR read YOUR life at risk go ahead, but you are jeopardizing somebody else's at the same time and you do NOT have that right just because you are his/her mother.

What do I think should happen? Well I am sure there is some kind of law for witholding medical treatment which results in the death of a person? It is manslaughter

All I can say is that I had a haemorrage after the birth of DD2. If I had been unassisted i would have died and left my 2 beautiful girls without a mummy.

"Human primates are terrible at giving birth. We have large heads, long labours and,once born, are utterly helpless"

Although interestingly, when you read research on bba's (born before arrivals - ie, babies born without health professionals being present) in the UK it seems that the vast majority of full-term babies born this way are born in good condition, comparable to babies born in hospital - even if their mothers are categorised as 'high risk'. Most babies born unexpectedly at home who end up in SCBU need to go there because they've got chilled after birth or are preterm and have breathing difficulties. Admittedly the research generally involves fairly small samples - the latest one I've seen looks at all the bba's born in a particular borough over the course of a year, which is likely to be between 0.5 and 1% of all the births in that area.

And mums who give birth without a health professional present seem to have much lower rates of birth injuries, oddly enough.

Interesting, no?

So women no longer have bodily integrity if they are pregnant mii? Where are you going to draw that line? 6 weeks pregnant? 20? 30? 36?

A woman has a right to refuse any intervention that she does not want, regardless of the outcome to herself and the baby, it is still her body. Or are you OK with someone being strapped down and having a c-section against their will?

There can be no grey area with this. Either women have bodily integrity or they don't. Which is it?

I would suggest the unborn child has to be protected too...hence the "meddling" by the NHS to make sure someone with the appropriate skills is there it that baby's life is at risk. Its not just about the mothers wish to labour how she wants. There are two lives to consider, and two sets of rights.

OP, I'd defend yours and any woman's legal right to give birth alone without fear of prosecution. I hope you find the information you want.

But from a position of concern for you, please do research your other options thoroughly to try to find a solution which meets your needs but minimises risk.

Exactly 3 weeks ago today I gave birth at home, with a planned homebirth and 2 MWs in attendance. I had no VEs and minimal intervention and my wishes were respected. The birth was great.

But - immediately after the baby was born I haemorrhaged, rapidly and badly. At this point all the contingencies I had discussed with my MW kicked in. I consented to change my physiological 3rd stage and had syntometrine quickly, 999 was called and the MWs started getting a line into me to give fluids. The paramedics arrived and bluelighted me to hospital, whilst forcing fluids down the drip.

I won't say I would have died had I been alone, because I'll never know. But I saw the look on the MWs faces, and I heard their voices as they ordered the ambulance. I saw the paramedics hands tremble as he struggled to get a line into my veins. They were all incredibly professional and efficient but I knew what was happening to me.

I chose an attended homebirth because ironically, my chances of PPH or risk to the baby were the same or lower than hospital birth. But I did plan for contingencies. I don't regret the homebirth at all; it went exactly as it should - including the efficient invoking of emergency procedures which is precisely what the medical professionals were trained to do.

Please do think really carefully before you make your choice.

Can someone address the point I've made - which is that unassisted birth for women with full-term babies, who've had adequate antenatal care, doesn't appear to be that risky, if you look at actual outcomes, rather than speculating like mad about how dangerous it is?

'Doesnt appear to be that risky'. 'Actual outcomes'.

Evidence, please.

lifeistooshort Thanks for taking the time to share your experience the IM sounds like a good option as I was really concerned as some things I'd heard and I don't want to cause problems and don't want to have to argue with someone when I need to be focused on the labour and birth.

EldonAve thanks for the keywords and I will be looking up the doc.

LynetteScavo Thanks for the info and I will prob look at a doula as I don't want to end up having issues with my partner in case he didn't listen or support me in the way I required or requested etc.

Lulumaan Thanks for the info its reassuring that I don't need VE 's done, obviously if I request help thats not so much of an issue but I've read so much about people finding VE's intrusive and slows down their labour and tenses them up. Then there are the people who have been forcably held down against their will and have suffered post traumatic stress and some have even resented their children because of it.

lal123 Horton Thanks for letting me know that you had good births, there seem to be more horror stories etc than people saying that they have a good birth.

ant3nna I'd not heard about that thanks I wish it was clear in law. If it was clearer then people could be honest and not do the whole thing where they lie to everyone and not have anyone to check in on them. As i've said above there are so many horror stories and people who have been assulted in hospitals that if there was clear legal guidelines then people could feel safe rather, than in some cases hearing that it seemed to them that the hospital would rather ignore their wishes and be sued after than recording and finding an alternitive at the time.

Xenia Thanks for info on the case I will be finding the court docs for it. As it helps to have something to say look you need to listen to me, which is helping me to aly my fears over certain things. Thanks so much.

Sassybeast Thanks for your comment.

mummyof2byapril Thanks for your comment, I hate to lie and can't do it very well and it does annoy me that it seems that my friend may be completely right in just lying. I want to be able to ask lots of questions to the medical profession about my pregnancy and if I do decide not to have someone in the room with me to be able to phone, give regular updates and get assistance if required and obviously to have the baby checked. And as I have no idea what a whole placenta looks like to ensure that is all ok and fully delievered.
Ideally I would like my partner and friend to be there to take pics and film our first moments together but not if there is going to be legal issues. I am happy for a midwife to be there after or outside the room but I am so concerned after hearing stories where peoples birth plans and human rights have been abused that I'd rather be relaxed and calm than panicing everytime the midwife does something in case she is not respecting me and doing something I have specifically refused.

Chellesgirl Thanks for the link have you done an unassisted yourself? I'd really like an honest true account not just the horror, scaremongering or plain so perfect its out of a film.

mummyof2byapril do you remember which tribe that was? I'd be interested to know it they have any customs that would've increased the mortality rates.

PeasPlease The idea of hiring IM sounds like it might be a good idea esp as I don't have much money to spend, so just for the last few weeks. Thanks wasn't sure if I had to hire one for the whole pregnancy.
Question for anyone who has used an IM, did you feel more in control and was it easy to find a good IM? (also must stop reading news - as there was that story about the IM who cut her client and damaged her bowels etc.) Is there any reviews of IM's etc to check someones compentancy?

foxytocin Thanks for taking time to comment

smallorange Thanks for taking time to comment, its encouraging to hear that people have had good homebirths (with a midwife).
Don't understand your comment about it being morally right though?

Morloth Thanks taking time to comment. I am trying to find a middle ground but in doing that I am finding out lots of bad and scary things so I want to know that I can feel safe and not have the whole hospital thing where they don't care what they do as the insurence will just pay despite the fact that people can be scarred for life. Just look at the PTS discussions.

tittybangbang Thanks for taking time to comment. Its interesting reading I will try to find the studies.

I find it strange to hear so many people wanting to make it illegal so you are happy to have mother prosecuted for not realising how quick they'd deliever or because they got stuff in traffic getting to their birth location. Or because they didn't inform the midwife quickly enough and she/he didn't arrive. Then we'd have more children in care as this would be a child neglect incident then they wouldn't be allowed to have children, work with children or vulunerable adults.
Also reading on other posts there are several women who have laboured and lied to their midwifes so they could have an unassisted birth, how would you differ between those who genuinely didn't give the correct info and those who purposely lied?

verylittlecarrot Thanks for your comment. Great to hear a good birth, sorry to hear about your haemorrhage.
How did you feel about that and everything that happened? Sorry if thats too invasive of a question.
Also how far away do you live from the hospital? (mines within 15mins during rush hour obviously if I have an emergency I'd be there quicker.)
Sorry to bombard you with questions but any idea how long it was between calling 999 and it arriving?
Also what other contingencies did you have as I want to make sure I cover all scenarios and risks.
Many Thanks

review of the channel 4 show

"It is perfectly legal to give birth alone, unassisted - ie with no midwife in attendance - whether this was accidental, or deliberate. Some women choose this option because they cannot get the sort of non-intrusive, supportive midwifery care they require. For others, giving birth unassisted is a positive choice which they believe to be best for them and their babies." Homebirth.org/laws

"It is illegal for anyone other than a UK registered midwife or doctor to 'attend' a woman in labour except in an emergency. This means that if it can be proved that the birth partner intended to act as a midwife, he (or she, but 'he' is used here for simplicity) may be prosecuted. The birth partner may even be liable to prosecution if he was present at the baby's birth, even if he was in another room at the time. Some have suggested that 'present' means in the same room, but it could be interpreted as 'nearby'."

A story for you:
In the one case in recent years where such a prosecution has been successful, the baby's father, Brian Radley, had stated explicitly to the health authorities that he intended to act as a midwife for the birth, and this statement of intent helped the prosecution's case. His wife was told by the health authority that, if she called a midwife, the midwife would arrive and immediately call an ambulance to take her to hospital. Mrs Radley had vowed never to enter the hospital again after she received poor treatment during there when having her first baby. Given the health authority's unsupportive attitude, the Radleys felt that conducting the birth themselves was their best option. Brian Radley was fined £500, but his fine was paid by a doctor who was appalled at the way this couple had been treated by the medical profession.

natalie I hear what you are saying about the hospitals and the care you recieved - I too had this awful care. Please dont let it fool you, that ALL midwives are horrid and evile...I did come across a few lovely ones throughout my pregnancy with dd, and some vile patronising ones too...its just a shame I had to deal with the stupid ones while in labour and afterwards [sigh]

I Personally would love to 'freebirth' but you can never ever be sure that baby will come out 'just fine' alot of babies born do just come out perfectly okay...however some dont and some need help. If you havent had good quality antenatal care you are never going to know if baby has a condition or the pregnancy is not as healthy as it should be i.e. Gestational diabetes, Oligohydramnios (low aniotic fluid levels) or Polyhyramnios (too much), Pre-eclampsia, - these things are some of the things that you wont detect if you dont have any antenatal care..and they can also be very dangerous to both you and baby if you have an unnassisted homebirth. I for one would not try and put you off having a homebirth for I believe that they can be the most wonderful experience if everything is well and you are low risk. I just think in my opinion that you should opt for a homebirth with a midwife that can be there 'just in case'. She can sit in another room, she doesnt even have to be anywhere near you, she can not touch you without your consent and most midwives are happy attending a homebirth even in thier own spare time (thats when you know you have found a good one ) All should be confident, but some arent confident in their own ability sometimes). Please see here for more info. I suggest searching this site so that you can gain indepth knowledge of what the law states and what rights as a mother and woman you have.

If you want some positive info about the type of homebirth you wish to persue look here

The choice is yours however you choose to give birth. I understnad completely where your coming from...but I also understand as a mother, that giving birth to a healthy baby is what we all desire...sometimes nature is cruel...I know I wouldnt want to be responsible for my baby's illness (e.g brain damage from lack of oxygen) or even death. The female body was made to birth babies, believe in the capabilty of your body. Also believe that not all medical staff are like the ones you experienced. I suggest finding a decent midwife, who you trust and feel comfortable with through your GP practice/local hospital and have her attend your homebirth. And maybe to get some anger and fustrations off your chest, write to the head of midwifery services and tell her of your experience and what have they done or will do to make sure it wont happen again. If your not happy with the way you were treated contact AIMS and they will act on your behalf.

And just another thing..what will you do if baby decides to come early (before 37weeks)???

Tittytittybangbang I have also looked deeply into this and earlier today found some very good facts...but now I cant locate them! I am searching to find them again and when I do, your answer will be answered and that of 'shirley* too.

Hi I don't mean to be unsupportive, but I simply can't understand why this seems like a good option to you.
Labour is frankly terrifying, you need the support of a qualified person.

If you are in labour and not comfortable with the care you're getting from your midwife, then speak up and ask for someone else. Having a baby alone is an enormous risk, things frequently go wrong. What might be a small issue in hospital could be life threatening if you were alone.

Go to hospital and be the biggest control freak prima donna ever about how it all happens, so they may not like it but what can the do.

Nataliejayne85, to be truthful, I felt, well, oh "buggery bugger", really, about the PPH. I knew it was bad, but my baby was screaming his lungs out so thankfully I was able to be at peace with knowing he'd made it safely out, so I felt surprisingly calm whilst they worked on me. My uterus just went floppy and they really struggled to get it to contract back down to stop the bleeding. I know that everyone involved in my care was fairly shaken up about it and has since been debriefed about what happened.

It was very important to me to have two midwives, not one. I posted a thread about it a few weeks ago when I was still planning. A friend of mine had a homebirth with only one MW in attendance and I chose not to go with that particular MW for partly that reason. Had the baby struggled to breathe whilst I was bleeding then one of us would have had our care compromised.

I actually live in a very rural area, takes us 30 minutes to drive to hospital. But a blue light journey is much faster, obviously, and my medical care to treat the bleed from the MWs and paramedics started immediately, literally within seconds of the birth, in much the same way as it would have in hospital. I have very little concept of time (birth will do that to you) but the ambulance did seem to be there fast - they are dispatched from wherever is nearest, not all the way from the hospital itself.

I discussed contingencies like what resus equipment would be there, how I would have syntometrine available in case of haemorrhage (but not to be used otherwise), and discussed how fluids would be given and so on. I read a bit on shoulder dystocia, I timed the trip to the hospital, met with the supervisor of midwives for a chat. We discussed how to assess progress without VEs although I would have consented to one if there had been a compelling reason as to why it was in mine or the baby's interests. I lurked a lot on the homebirthuk website. And learned a lot on MN!

I actually tore badly too so needed to go to hospital to be stitched in theatre with a spinal anyway. I am very much in favour of minimal unneccessary intervention - however in emergency situations I cannot praise the care I received from the NHS enough. They were truly remarkable, compassionate, kind and very professional. I felt very, very fortunate to have that care provided when I really needed it.