Really upset at the natural child birth brigade...

[Huncamuncaa]

Sorry everyone.... need to vent...

I had a baby almost 5 years ago. I did the NCT course and armed myself with all the facts. I took in everything they said. I wanted a calm, natural birth.

It didn't work out that way. My baby was delivered by ventouse. I had severe bruising and scaring which took months to heal. Walking was painful for weeks. After the birth, the bruising prevented me from sitting down for days.

I was told that the heart rate had dropped due to the cord being round the baby's neck, hence the way he was delivered that way. I had been a bit out of it at the time on painkillers. I have never talked about the birth much and nor has my husband. It was traumatic but we survived it.

The NCT reunion came round and it turned out that all of us had had to have some sort of intervention at birth, except for the girl who had wanted a home birth. Her baby sailed into this world. It was blissful. The NCT leader looked quite smug. Her message that 'if you want a natural birth and remain calm, it will happen,' was ringing true. I told her about my birth and how I had had to have the baby born quickly because they cord was causing his heart rate to drop. She told me this was most unlikely, many babies are born this way (I know that this is true). She said it was more likely that my birth had been 'over medicalised'. Apparently when you give birth in hospital, doctors frequently don't give first time mums the time they need to give birth. She suggested that I had been very anxious and this has reduced my ability to push. The woman basically changed my understanding of my own birth. For the last 4 and a bit years I have believed that if I had breathed deeper, been more in tune with my body or had dimmer lights I would have not had six months of physical discomfort due to scarring from my episiotomy. My birth would have felt joyful not traumatic.

So I am pregnant again. Did a different (but similar) antenatal course, desperate for that joyful birth. Told the group about my first birth. Was told again, it was unlikely to have been an actual emergency. This time the meditation will get me through. Childbirth will be a dream.

Today I finally spoke to my mum (a doctor) who had been in the delivery suite at my first birth. She filled me in. She was really shocked that my understanding was that my birth had been 'unnecessarily medicalised'. She told me that my baby's heart rate dropped critically low and that, yes, I was in that very small minority of cases where the cord is wrapped in such a way that it affects the heart rate and could have caused a still birth. I knew that my son had been taken off me but didn't actually realise he was being resuscitated while I was stitched up. My mum had been very concerned. My bruising was caused by him being born with both his hands next to his head. (There isn't anything they could have done to prevent this position, not even a home birth amongst scented candles). I was unlucky with the episiotomy scarring, but the quick delivery saved the life of my baby.

My natural birth prevented my child from being still born. How was I so easily brain washed and made to feel inadequate by these people, even after almost five years?! I do believe that being calm, meditation and the rest of it helps but how can someone, who wasn't there and hasn't seen my notes feel like it's OK to educate me on what happened and why it all went wrong?!

“If you’ve had an easy labour it’s so easy to think it was because you were calm/hypnobirthed etc. Those of us who had difficult births know that a fair degree of luck is also involved!!“

As do many of us who had “easy” (I personally prefer the term “straightforward” - easy it wasn’t) births. I thanked my lucky stars many times afterwards because so much is down to chance

If you actually want a “natural” birth, there are things you can do to make it more likely that you get one. Obviously you still need the conditions to be right for you and the baby- but you can make it more likely.

If you actually want a “natural” birth, there are things you can do to make it more likely that you get one. Obviously you still need the conditions to be right for you and the baby- but you can make it more likely.

I did with dc1. I stayed at home for as long as possible. I stayed upright and mobile even though he was on the sciatic nerve and my legs kept going under me. I declined examinations because my waters had broken first. He never got lower than mid pelvis in 75 hours worth of contractions, never got any lower with pushing and couldn't be pulled out with forceps.

I have plenty of friends who were perfectly happy on their backs immobile with every drug possible who managed what I could not. Most if not all of whom did it with bigger babies than dc1 too.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils that’s why I said “more likely”.......

@SweetMelodies *
@cranstonmanor c-sections are being done on maternal request increasingly over here. Plenty of NHS hospitals support women choosing a c-section for their own preference*

I don't get your point? I commented on someone who said that all these europeans are surprised that she didn't go for c-section. I said that she couldn't have met dutch then because we're different in that since c section isn't done on maternal request here (unfortunately). Here being the Netherlands of course, where the dutch live. The NHS is British I believe, so doesn't exist in other countries...

It's also a bit easy to say the europeans think this or that since the countries can differ a lot in their approach.

that’s why I said “more likely”.......

I know you did. I think it's a fine line though. I would like there to be more discussion about the fact that not all babies fit through all pelvises. I hate the "your body wouldn't grow a baby it can't birth" mantra....mostly because mine did exactly that. I apparently have a sub optimal one which is closer to a man's and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere than only 50 percent of women have optimal pelvis types but that was only afterwards when I was a suicidal mess who felt she'd failed at motherhood before dc1 even took his first breath. I think also that too much emphasis is put on baby size when possibly head size is a bigger problem as chubby babies can still squish but a giant skull less so.

I would like there to be more discussion about the fact that not all babies fit through all pelvises.

Absolutely. There’s always this idea that birth is a natural process and women have been doing it for millions of years - but actually humans a quite poorly adapted for it, especially compared to other mammals, which is why in the past it was very dangerous and dying in childbirth wasn’t uncommon. We’ve evolved with the need for a bit of extra help because human baby’s heads are so bloody huge - I don’t think in any society, modern or old, giving birth on your own is the norm.

I always hear about big babies/head size but a midwife once told me that the more important factor is actually the position of the baby. Does anyone know what the research says on this?

You know what? I look at my beautiful big headed children every day and thank sweet Jesus that I had c-sections! 🤣🙈

I always hear about big babies/head size but a midwife once told me that the more important factor is actually the position of the baby. Does anyone know what the research says on this?

Haven't a clue what the research says but for us, it was entirely head size/pelvis shape as he was an in optimal position by the time I was fully dilated.

I'm so sorry you have been made to feel this way. It isn't how I feel. I had a home birth after two medicalised hospital births. (I was induced both times for medical reasons)
My sil had a traumatic first birth and then had a debrief with midwives when she was pregnant the second time. It really helped her.
For me the thing that helped was feeling more in control third time round. Medical intervention is there for a reason. Likewise it is sometimes used when it's not necessary. In your case it was the thing that needed to happen.
I genuinely don't understand how women can be so awful to women x

I had my first baby eight weeks ago and went to hypnobirthing classes beforehand. A lot of the content was about keeping a clear head no matter what turn your birth takes but there was a definite thread of 'think positively for a natural blissful birth'.

During the class there were lots of mentions of women in the third world being back out in fields the next day and cows not screaming when calving. Ignoring the facts of women in poverty around the world dying during and after birth, a class mate (who was a farmer) pointed out that in her experiences cows do vocalise their distress as they have their calves, particularly if they haven't had calves before.

I did end up being induced and had a horrific experience and sadly these classes didn't help me in the end. I just wasn't able to think in a clear way when in so much pain and distress.

About head size and position - I’d be inclined to believe midwife about latter. My DS was 99th centile for head but that’s the top of the scale, so there will be others with bigger heads who would have been classed the same because that’s the biggest they could be. DS was 9lb 5oz; I knew a woman who’d given birth vaginally to a baby 1lb bigger than that.

I’d say it made the pushing urge more uncontrollable and I probably would have torn less had I been able to do little puffs when pushing out, but it didn’t physically restrict DS being born.

Vaginas are stretchy and head plates overlap efficiently I guess.

During the class there were lots of mentions of women in the third world being back out in fields the next day

God I hate this. I really really hate this. How unbelievably entitled, privileged, ignorant... etc.
So women in sub Saharan Africa would reject medical intervention, postnatal wards, epidurals, inductions, c sections if they were readily available would they?

It’s like saying ‘want to lose weight? Think of all those starving people around the world to inspire you!’

During the class there were lots of mentions of women in the third world being back out in fields the next day

But they were the ones that survived 🤷🏻‍♀️😳

Vaginas are stretchy and head plates overlap efficiently I guess.

They still have to navigate the pelvis first. Which is where my six pound nine ounce optimally positioned baby with a similar size head to yours got stuck and couldn't be budged with forceps or pushing. When he was finally born he had marks on his head from where they said he'd been smashing into my pelvis for the last 75 hours.

I accept I might be an outlier (freak?) but it wasn't position caused our issues.

I've not read the thread but I totally agree and it still gives me rage 6 years later. From our NCT class there were very few uncomplicated births out of the 6. I had a failed induction which was horribly traumatic. The baby was too big to deliver. Another friends baby got stuck and they had to convert to c section mid delivery or he would have died. Another did almost loose her baby. Went into unit for routine monitoring as overdue. Heart rate was very low and he was resuscitated at birth.

I was told in my hideous labour by a midwife, that I 'wasn't helping myself' by not breathing through it. I still want to punch her now.
If I had not been brain washed I would have been better prepared to ask for proper pain relief and not feel guilty for asking.

Oh and my second elective c section was wonderful and I felt in control

@dinosauratemydaffodils it was me who started the position debate so just to be clear, the midwife never said that position was the only factor just that it was the most important (i.e. more important than weight and head size).

I took this to mean "all other things being equal" i.e. no pelvis issues or whatever.

I just wondered if there was any population level research on it as most of the comments I see are anecdotes.

I had very big babies and the midwife told me that position was very important- I think it was “brow presentation” - she said could cause
problems, even if there weren’t any concerns about pelvic size.

God this all makes me so cross! These bloody earth mothers who have had the luck to have had an easy safe birth have no right to make those who were not so lucky feel guilty and spoil their early time with their baby.

Tell them to go and visit a graveyard where they will see the rows of babys' and mothers' graves who have died before we were privileged to have the knowledge and the science to keep mother and baby safe.

These sort of women need a kick up the fanny frankly.

@Huncamuncaa. So sorry that you had such a tough birth.

I don’t think babies heart dropping is odd in terms of it being an Emergancy ... in my baby group I am literally the only one who didn’t have an Emergancy c section .... in fact the day I gave birth I had the only baby with a green hat ( all is good) everyone else was red ( hard birth not doing well )

I don’t believe meditation can take away risks people used to die in child birth all the time.

The only good birth plan is a very loosely laid out one, and to listen to the medical professionals.

Mum guilt is awful but try not to
Listen to it! You have a beautiful 5 year old who is alive ... your body got battered to help get them into this world safely
And I call that a huge success

Do what you are comfortable with and don’t for a second think you did anything wrong you didn’t .

Thinking about this today actually and I think I only know of 1 woman who had an uncomplicated birth. All the rest were resolutely complicated. Retained placentas, sections, 3rd degree tears, etc.

I didn't go to any classes for my second, my first was straightforward enough (had epi but no other interventions). I had wanted to do it as naturally as possible the second time round (albeit still in a hospital setting). It didn't work out and I ended up having a crash section.

I made myself feel shit for about year afterwards, my body had let my DS down and meant I wouldn't bond with him etc etc. I would never have said another mum had failed by having a c section but that's how I made myself feel.

I had a debrief just after DS turned 1 and after being told what happened and why it happened really helped. The medical staff did what was necessary and acted quickly enough to save us both, and for that, I will be forever grateful. But I still feel a bit sad when I hear about other women having nice, calm, 'natural' births.

I do think it’s a bit sad that women who have had “natural” births can’t share their birth stories on here. Apart from anything else- if I was a first time pregnant woman, I would be utterly terrified by all the stories of everything that could go wrong. It doesn’t for the majority of women. But that’s not the impression you would get reading Mumsnet.