Really upset at the natural child birth brigade...

[Huncamuncaa]

Sorry everyone.... need to vent...

I had a baby almost 5 years ago. I did the NCT course and armed myself with all the facts. I took in everything they said. I wanted a calm, natural birth.

It didn't work out that way. My baby was delivered by ventouse. I had severe bruising and scaring which took months to heal. Walking was painful for weeks. After the birth, the bruising prevented me from sitting down for days.

I was told that the heart rate had dropped due to the cord being round the baby's neck, hence the way he was delivered that way. I had been a bit out of it at the time on painkillers. I have never talked about the birth much and nor has my husband. It was traumatic but we survived it.

The NCT reunion came round and it turned out that all of us had had to have some sort of intervention at birth, except for the girl who had wanted a home birth. Her baby sailed into this world. It was blissful. The NCT leader looked quite smug. Her message that 'if you want a natural birth and remain calm, it will happen,' was ringing true. I told her about my birth and how I had had to have the baby born quickly because they cord was causing his heart rate to drop. She told me this was most unlikely, many babies are born this way (I know that this is true). She said it was more likely that my birth had been 'over medicalised'. Apparently when you give birth in hospital, doctors frequently don't give first time mums the time they need to give birth. She suggested that I had been very anxious and this has reduced my ability to push. The woman basically changed my understanding of my own birth. For the last 4 and a bit years I have believed that if I had breathed deeper, been more in tune with my body or had dimmer lights I would have not had six months of physical discomfort due to scarring from my episiotomy. My birth would have felt joyful not traumatic.

So I am pregnant again. Did a different (but similar) antenatal course, desperate for that joyful birth. Told the group about my first birth. Was told again, it was unlikely to have been an actual emergency. This time the meditation will get me through. Childbirth will be a dream.

Today I finally spoke to my mum (a doctor) who had been in the delivery suite at my first birth. She filled me in. She was really shocked that my understanding was that my birth had been 'unnecessarily medicalised'. She told me that my baby's heart rate dropped critically low and that, yes, I was in that very small minority of cases where the cord is wrapped in such a way that it affects the heart rate and could have caused a still birth. I knew that my son had been taken off me but didn't actually realise he was being resuscitated while I was stitched up. My mum had been very concerned. My bruising was caused by him being born with both his hands next to his head. (There isn't anything they could have done to prevent this position, not even a home birth amongst scented candles). I was unlucky with the episiotomy scarring, but the quick delivery saved the life of my baby.

My natural birth prevented my child from being still born. How was I so easily brain washed and made to feel inadequate by these people, even after almost five years?! I do believe that being calm, meditation and the rest of it helps but how can someone, who wasn't there and hasn't seen my notes feel like it's OK to educate me on what happened and why it all went wrong?!

I completely agree, OP. My NCT teacher was very sweet but we were definitely given the 'relax and it'll be fine' mantra and c-sections were barely mentioned.
Out of the six of us, three had c-sections, one of whom had serious complications throughout the birth and needed surgery to her bladder and other organs afterwards.
The NCT classes are great for meeting fellow mothers to be in your area but in my experience, they are worse than useless in preparing you for childbirth.
If centuries of women dying in childbirth could have been prevented by us just having the right attitude, we would have sorted it out long ago

I'm sorry that you had that experience op and that you had such awful comments from your NCT teacher.
I agree with the PP who said there is a dangerous and irresponsible attitude to induction among the positive/natural birth movement. I did an online course for hypnobirthing because I thought a bit of calming and breathing couldn't be so bad. It actually made me really angry. The whole thing focuses on being 'positive' and is allegedly evidence based, but posits that basically all 'bad' experiences happen because of doctors intervening unnecessarily and bright lights in hospital etc. In spite of it's instruction to be 'positive' it is relentlessly negative about induction and says going overdue isn't a reason to induce. It does give a quick reference to the placenta failing, which in my view is not the same as saying there's an increased risk of stillbirth past due date. It's even against sweeps and gives an incorrect assessment of current evidence on the matter.
As a pp said, there does seem to be a group who think because they had an easy time giving birth, (or difficult first birth, followed by easier subsequent births) it is easy and all you need is breathing and positivity any medical intervention is unnecessary. It really does a disservice to the complicated and risky reality of childbirth. As others have said, it's not just NCT, my yoga teacher (lovely lady, had a lovely birth and seemingly clueless that this doesn't always happen but happy to tell everyone how to do it because of her vast experience of having one baby) and hypnobirthing course show that the thinking/influence is much more pervasive. I personally also think it's oppressive to insist that we have to enjoy childbirth and have a transformative experience. It can be very painful and dangerous, and as an op says, most people don't get pregnant to give birth, but to have a child.
Sorry that's a bit long but I'm going to give birth for a second time soon and it's all weighing quite heavily on my mind!

I can't tell you how helpful it is to read this thread.

I didn't do any NCT classes (quite glad of that now!) but I did do Hypnobirthing at the hospital where the same sort of messages were given. We watched lots of videos of women breathing babies out in pools and any sort of intervention was barely mentioned. The main message that stuck with me was 'your body is made for this/your body knows what to do/your body will do what it needs to do' etc. However mine didn't, and after hours of pushing my baby wasn't coming out. I had ventouse and an episiotomy in the end and have spent the last few weeks in pain! What upset me most is the feeling that despite what I was told, I couldn't do it. I needed help from a Doctor. They were incredible and got baby out safely but I couldn't help but feel completely inadequate.

It's ridiculous isn't it, i did a hypnobirthing course and they touted the idea that labour wards were full of medical professionals frothing at the gills to uncessarilly intervene during labour. Maybe they do err on the side of caution, which I believe to be a good thing; and although I believe women should make their own choices, they need to be armed with the full facts ie on induction, with a lot of these courses don't provide. I always hated the line about women have been doing this for thousands of years, yep they have, many also died or suffered life changing injuries. I do feel if it was something to do with a male procedure technical advances would be celebrated, as would the fact that many lives have been saved. Because it's women though, let's make them feel inadequate for perfectly reasonable interventions.

I take the point a PP made- that we sometimes don’t tell mothers exactly what has gone wrong, what we are doing to correct it and why.
I don’t think this is deliberate, just that 1) there isn’t time for a lengthy explanation when you need an emergency intervention, and
2) if the baby is fine after resuscitation, you don’t want to alarm the mum by telling her that its heart rate was in its boots and it wasn’t breathing! So she might go away with the idea that it was all unnecessary medical meddling, as the OP did until her medical DM explained.
Some patients don’t want to hear the gory details afterwards either, so we often leave it to them to ask if they want clarification.

I live in a country where no hospital will do a vaginal breech delivery, standard procedure is ECV and if that fails c-section. I had a breech baby who came by section. Met a woman afterwards who told me I should have flown in a midwife from Canada she knows who would have done it for me at home.

About a year later there was that tragic case of breech delivery in the UK where the baby was killed due to physician error.

Also all sitting round on a summers evening confirming that we wouldn’t have the pain relief- without knowing what the pain was like!

Was 7 months pregnant with my first when out with some senior city women when we heard our friend had gone into labour. The response from the mothers was “Christ poor Liz”, sympathetic head shakes. I chirped up with the nct line and one said “you don’t get a fucking medal you know take all the help you get” it was quite refreshing

you don’t want to alarm the mum by telling her that its heart rate was in its boots and it wasn’t breathing!

But that’s really important information! It’s alarming because it’s serious. That means the mother needs to know. Can you imagine if that was the protocol for all medical information that may “alarm” the patient or NOK? Don’t tell them because it might upset or worry them? That’s a really awful excuse. And really quite patronising to mothers. New mothers aren’t children! I didn’t even know what medication my son had been given to bring him back round or whatever exactly it was it did to him. I sat in front of a health visitor in tears because I couldn’t answer the question of what they gave him. I felt like a terrible mother.

Some patients don’t want to hear the gory details afterwards either, so we often leave it to them to ask if they want clarification.

How can they ask about something they didn’t even know happened? No-one told me my son collapsed and had to be resuscitated. Not until my mum told me after we were discharged. She assumed I knew until I made a comment about “all those people who came in” I thought they were trainees or something. I didn’t know that there was anything to ask until I was sitting at home trying to establish breastfeeding on zero sleep. The last thing on my mind at that point was arranging a birth debrief. I should have been told before I left that hospital.

Your post really struck a cord with me! Of course most women want a ‘natural’ birth. I don’t think anyone would choose to have the birth you and many others have had OP. I think some natural birth advocates miss the point that sometimes intervention is necessary and 50 years ago babies like yours and mine could have died without it.

I planned a water birth, did hypnobirthing, refused all pain relief...DD was born by EMCS because her heart rate dropped to 12 bpm. No amount of “breathing through it” was going to change the fact there was something wrong.

You are amazing for handling your birth the way you did. Good luck with no 2

Historically and globally, 'natural childbirth' causes high numbers of stillbirths, neonatal deaths, maternal death and disability, not mention physical and psychological trauma.

Hypnobirthing/home birthing all fine and dandy, if people would just keep their views about others' experiences to themselves.

A friend of mine had a similar experience. She went from thinking, 'I failed' to 'we're both here and well' to 'shit what if it happens again?' (when she was pregnant again).

She did have a debrief with the hospital during her subsequent pregnancy and found it immensely helpful as, like you, she found out that her baby had been in significant distress and a section wasn't an 'unnecessary intervention' - it saved her baby's life.

I actually don't know how her second baby was delivered tbh. She sent round a 'she's here and we're both well' text, and that was all anyone else needed to know.

Do you think a debrief meeting with the hospital would help you, or maybe your mum is better placed.

Best of luck and take care.

I didn't go to any classes for this reason. I figured no one knew what was actually going to happen on the day. I could inform myself about drug options etc anywhere and would have no idea about whether I might need them until the moment arrived. I just went with the flow.
For my second child I was told going through labour would probably result in the death of one or both or in and the baby or I could have a c section they then went on about how its a really serious op.
No prizes for which I opted.
You never know what's going to happen, you can't have a general plan. The natural non medicalised methods of old used to result in thousands dying. If we all shunned intervention we'd be back to those days. Some of these NCT teachers you hear about need to really made to understand the mental damage they do with this kind of brainwashing. It's effects are long lasting and instead of empowering.
OP have you though about hypnotherapy before the birth to help clear the ideas and anguish. It can be incredible. It can even be done via Skype!!

Women only say things like that because they want to feel they achieved something by giving birth without intervention or 'over medicalisation', and while it's great if that happens it isn't down to them or anything they did. I had a wonderful calm birth with just gas and air and no damage/tearing, but I accept it was dumb luck, not that I have some magically special childbirth abilities because I put in more effort or whatever.

Without medical intervention I would not have survived my own birth and in all probability neither would my mother.

Without medical intervention I'm not sure that either myself or my son would have survived his birth.

I'm all for medical intervention!

I do wish that the medical staff were a bit better at keeping me informed. They did try to tell me, for example I remember a doctor explaining why I was being rushed to theatre and probably some other things too but he chose to do so at the exact same time the my minutes old newborn had been taken off me by a paediatrician and was being checked over, so I had my son a few feet from my head on one side and the doctor by my head the other side and lots of midwives messing around between my legs minutes after a fairly traumatic birth. I was not in a position to understand pretty much anything that was happening and could not focus on any of it properly. I've often wondered what was actually happening and even if the paediatrician being there so soon was standard procedure or not.

@dc3dilemma my first birth was really similar to your one. The midwife involved also under medicalised mine until things got serious.

@babdoc someone close to me is an anaesthetist and her advice to me was similar to yours.

As far as I understand it an an NCT qualification isn't medically recognised. I'm glad I didn't do the course as I couldn't have faced dissecting my traumatic birth like that in the early days.

Good luck next time round OP. Hope all goes well this time.

I thought I'd missed out on something not joining any of these groups, everything I hear about them makes me realise I dodged a bullet.
People even become friends just because their kids were born around the same time, then get all upset when it fizzles out or normal group dynamics appear.
Move on, learn your lesson and keep away from such false friendship groups.

I had a homebirth. Not by choice mind you. Basically I had gold standard care because I was at a risk of PND and very birth anxious and wanted ELCS. It so happened that this type of care was delivered by the homebirth team. The care was good I was supported well (had the same MWs throughout visiting me at home so trust was built) with a promise that they will be with me throughout the birth. They coached me away from ELCS into MLU type birth in the local hospital with promises of support and holding my hand all the way through it.

All that went out of the window when labour started. I had one visit, I was being told on the phone that I was not in active labour so they wouldn't come and on the night when my waters broke the MW on call breezily told me that she was on her own as the other one was sick so she wouldn't go with me to the hospital because she had to prioritise any homebirths happening that night. that was first I heard about where I was in pecking order. She kept telling me I wasn't in active labour and to just keep going.

Then her phone got full as it's an ancient Nokia that receives pager messages and she was out of comms for hours. We managed to locate her (at the same time as preparing to go to hospital) and by the time she came DD was coming. Meconium was in the waters but she wasn't distressed so I gave birth there and then and to this day I thank higher powers (that I don't even believe in) that DD didn't come to any harm.

What annoys the fuck out of me is people's reaction (which I have been correcting) was: WOW! Homebirth. You're hardcore! WOW!

I am not hardcore to labour for three nights and two days without pain relief. I was begging those MWs to come but they didn't. So as far as I'm concerned it was a failure of care rather than some sort of bravery on my part.

Don't get me started on post natal care as we were blue lighted to a&e after 4 days of inadequate home visits as DD was severely dehydrated and lost 20% of body weight. They gaslighted me for 4 days with "she's a newborn and newborns cry. Just put her on the boob" when I kept saying she wasn't settling and villyfying formula. All turned out fine in the end and NICU care was amazing: supportive nurses, breastfeeding consultant and mixed feeding which worked for us.

All that I was left with after this experience is how misogyny plays in all of this: we women are supposed to be these fucking earth mothers, birthing with some sort of natural instinct and therefore we don't deserve pain relief or even being listened to. I will never forget that fucking MW telling me after two nights and two days of labour when I started to get shirty on the phone once my waters broke "You need to CALM DOWN because you'll slow your labour"

It gives me a rage to even think about it.

Needless to say the case is under PALS review at the moment.

The point is: lying to people about realities of birth is fucking criminal.

Ps. As an additional point: DH got brainwashed in the process of NCT and homebirth MWs visits and wasn't listening to me at the time of labour and those initial days siding with them . Men over rely on advice given as they can't experience what women experience - talking to fellow mothers men following advice religiously is a thing so all the NCT stuff can be damaging to support women receive from partners who cannot bridge the gap between what they've been told and what is actually happening. Suffice to say when we were in NICU with DD afterwards, he learned his lesson pretty damn quick but I remember telling him that if he ever questions what my experience of mothering is, he can fuck off to the far side of fuck and never return. He knows that now

Completely agree with you OP. I’m from a clinical background (senior nurse) and feel very comfortable & at ease in a hospital as have worked in one for the last 15 years.

Whilst pregnant with DD, DH and I did a hypnobirthing course. I was terrified of childbirth and this really helped - some great techniques to help me keep calm and feel in control, and lots of positive information about childbirth. Really helped me overcome my fears and in the end I was actually looking forward to labour!

Ended up with an emergency C section after a long back to back labour, and she needed to be resuscitated. I’d been chanting affirmations for months, bouncing on my birthball, listening to relaxation mp3s etc - all helped me feel more relaxed but made no difference to the outcome.

Looking back, and even now seeing their social media posts, they seem quite ‘anti medicine’ - lots of suggestions that monitoring the baby’s heart rate might lead to unnecessary interventions etc. I feel like a lot of it is scaremongering about Drs and hospital births. Drives me nuts.

I don't entirely disagree, but it's worth bearing in mind that natural childbirth brigade cake along because of routine episiotomies, enemas, shaving, all women giving birth in stirrups, taking baby off and giving formula without asking etc.

It's true doctors sometimes intervene unnecessarily for spurious reasons or their own convenience.

It's also true that medical intervention avoids horrible birth outcomes like stillbirth, haemorrhage etc.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, I wish it wasn't all so polarised.

Hi OP both my children suffered fatal bradycardia (low heart rate) from the distress caused by the cord being tied. We had cord compression which is where the cord is being squashed, potentially starving baby of oxygen. I had emergency sections both times, my first was delivered 8 minutes after the section was called.

It IS very serious and no amount of breathing can untie a babies cord the baby ties themselves up. It was felt in my case that potentially I just grow long cords, as whilst it’s fairly common to have the cord around the neck, it Can still cause serious issues for some babies.

I do wonder about (some) NCT “teachers”
I wonder why childbirth, such a small part of most parents life, it’s so important to them in the context they chose to use it (it’s not like they’re training to be midwives or trying to campaign for better maternity care, or something equally useful) instead they just spend hours and years stuck in this very small stage of childhood, treating it like some kind of accomplishment to have an easy birth.

I found hypnobirthing great for pain relief. It in no way influences your birth though. The mother can’t control the birth. The babies are up to god knows what in there

Joxer, I think you’re projecting your own feelings onto all other mothers and trying to speak for what they hypothetically might have wanted.
If the baby has been successfully resuscitated and doesn’t need any further treatment or monitoring, it’s given to the mum for her to bond and have photos and celebrate her special moment.
I doubt many doctors would want to spoil that magic time by butting in with “Well, he nearly died, you know, and I had to do lots of medical stuff, but he’s fine now, so I’ll just throw this unwanted info at you to make you worried sick about potential complications and looking after baby when you go home.”
It would look like pathetic attention seeking boasting (Aren’t I a fab doc, I saved your baby), or wanting to put a downer on the celebration!
Of course if the baby needed further care, we’d explain why, and if the mum actually asked for details or whether everything had been ok, we’d have told her.
I’ve had mothers beg me NOT to tell them any details of what Im doing with their epidural or spinal, or procedures in theatre - they’re stressed and can’t handle it. Many say they trust me to just get on with my job - the opposite of your own need for full information!
In summary, all women are different, and you should just ask for whatever level of explanation you are happy with.

@Cyclemad222

I actually agree with you. There isn't a single definitive answer to this in which only one approach is the right approach, especially as you say, it gets so polarised. However, the push towards MLU care is at at least partly motivated by finances so women are denied ELCS because it's more expensive than unassisted birth and as based on my experience the homebirth practice is poorly managed by trusts, which push it to drive reduction in costs. That cannot be right.

The fact that NCT and the NHS antenatal classes (which I also did) sell this dream version of childbirth and early days childcare is at best misguided and at worst damaging to women.

Don't quite know what the answer is but it needs to be looked at.

Also Op I don’t want to Influence your second birth but I wanted to say that despite having the same issue a second time my second birth was treated as high risk due to my history and this was very beneficial - I had better drugs (one, a new drug,which is able to relax your uterus to help baby- my babies heart went from 30 BPM to 100 after a dose!) and an epidural administered early. I went from crash section (general anaesthetic) to relaxed section! It was great. So 2nd time can be so much better even if it happens again

I think my NCT was far more balanced then the norm. We were told any kind of birth is fine if mum and baby are fine.

The hypobirthing did help me for a bit but after a day of agony I begged for an epidural. There are things I'd do differently but on the whole I'm glad we did NCT. It meant we understood the terminology and gave us confidence to ask questions.
I still felt that if not been in control and if I ever do it again I'll be a bloody bolshy nightmare if the medical staff don't listen to me.
From what I understand when medics know it's not your first baby they're more open with you.

If the baby has been successfully resuscitated and doesn’t need any further treatment or monitoring, it’s given to the mum for her to bond and have photos and celebrate her special moment.

Telling her that her child stopped breathing can be done after she has had her photos and special moment. I do not believe there is a mother on earth who would say they didn’t want to know if their baby had to be resuscitated. That is information mothers should know. She is the NOK. It doesn’t have to be done before she has had a chance to meet and bond with her baby. It can be done after.

I doubt many doctors would want to spoil that magic time by butting in with “Well, he nearly died, you know, and I had to do lots of medical stuff, but he’s fine now, so I’ll just throw this unwanted info at you to make you worried sick about potential complications and looking after baby when you go home.”

Why would it be done like that? what medical professional would speak like that? A doctor who can’t deliver the facts without reassuring the mother that the baby is absolutely fine shouldn’t be in the job. It’s worrying that you think that’s how it would be done. Are you still a working HCP?

It would look like pathetic attention seeking boasting (Aren’t I a fab doc, I saved your baby), or wanting to put a downer on the celebration!

This is a very strange comment. Doctors bring patients and parents of patients up to speed on what’s been happening all the time. If a child collapses in hospital while parents are absent the staff will inform the parent of what happened, what was done, what meds given and what they are keeping an eye on as a result. None of them are perceived as being attention seeking for doing so. It’s called communicating. Passing on information of treatment.

I’ve had mothers beg me NOT to tell them any details of what Im doing with their epidural or spinal, or procedures in theatre

Yes, their epidural or spinal. Have you had a mother beg you not to tell her what you’re doing to her child? It’s not comparable.

In summary, all women are different, and you should just ask for whatever level of explanation you are happy with.

Again, how can I know to ask for an explanation of something I wasn’t told happened? Do most new mothers ask “did my baby need resuscitated?”

I dont know the answer to the debrief. I was a hormonal mess and straight away one problem moves to the next...feeding the baby! There's no time to dwell and I wouldn't want someone spoiling those precious first moments with the gory details. It would have probably upset me.

I could have done with a debrief maybe a week or so later. I was completely clueless and remember googling stuff. My OH had a good understanding of what had happened but after my conversation with the nct person I completely shut him down. Told him he'd not understood what was going on, that many babies are delivered safely with a cord round their neck. He just decided to keep quiet after that as it became the unspeakable subject!

I'm not anti NCT. The friends I made (who had almost all had difficult births) were the people who got me through those first months. In the last few weeks I have been referred to a new support group the NCT run in my area for people struggling with pregnancy and new borns. It has been very mental health based rather than natural childbirth based. It seems to be a small group of people across several different organisations and franchises which are meant to support women through childbirth but express their personal, anti medical opinions in an irresponsible way when women are at their most vulnerable.

Surely what will have the most affect on a newborn, once they are safely delivered, is their mother's mental health?