Really upset at the natural child birth brigade...

[Huncamuncaa]

Sorry everyone.... need to vent...

I had a baby almost 5 years ago. I did the NCT course and armed myself with all the facts. I took in everything they said. I wanted a calm, natural birth.

It didn't work out that way. My baby was delivered by ventouse. I had severe bruising and scaring which took months to heal. Walking was painful for weeks. After the birth, the bruising prevented me from sitting down for days.

I was told that the heart rate had dropped due to the cord being round the baby's neck, hence the way he was delivered that way. I had been a bit out of it at the time on painkillers. I have never talked about the birth much and nor has my husband. It was traumatic but we survived it.

The NCT reunion came round and it turned out that all of us had had to have some sort of intervention at birth, except for the girl who had wanted a home birth. Her baby sailed into this world. It was blissful. The NCT leader looked quite smug. Her message that 'if you want a natural birth and remain calm, it will happen,' was ringing true. I told her about my birth and how I had had to have the baby born quickly because they cord was causing his heart rate to drop. She told me this was most unlikely, many babies are born this way (I know that this is true). She said it was more likely that my birth had been 'over medicalised'. Apparently when you give birth in hospital, doctors frequently don't give first time mums the time they need to give birth. She suggested that I had been very anxious and this has reduced my ability to push. The woman basically changed my understanding of my own birth. For the last 4 and a bit years I have believed that if I had breathed deeper, been more in tune with my body or had dimmer lights I would have not had six months of physical discomfort due to scarring from my episiotomy. My birth would have felt joyful not traumatic.

So I am pregnant again. Did a different (but similar) antenatal course, desperate for that joyful birth. Told the group about my first birth. Was told again, it was unlikely to have been an actual emergency. This time the meditation will get me through. Childbirth will be a dream.

Today I finally spoke to my mum (a doctor) who had been in the delivery suite at my first birth. She filled me in. She was really shocked that my understanding was that my birth had been 'unnecessarily medicalised'. She told me that my baby's heart rate dropped critically low and that, yes, I was in that very small minority of cases where the cord is wrapped in such a way that it affects the heart rate and could have caused a still birth. I knew that my son had been taken off me but didn't actually realise he was being resuscitated while I was stitched up. My mum had been very concerned. My bruising was caused by him being born with both his hands next to his head. (There isn't anything they could have done to prevent this position, not even a home birth amongst scented candles). I was unlucky with the episiotomy scarring, but the quick delivery saved the life of my baby.

My natural birth prevented my child from being still born. How was I so easily brain washed and made to feel inadequate by these people, even after almost five years?! I do believe that being calm, meditation and the rest of it helps but how can someone, who wasn't there and hasn't seen my notes feel like it's OK to educate me on what happened and why it all went wrong?!

“The midwife taking the class point blank refused and said everything would be fine if we "relaxed" and thought postitvely.”

She genuinely said that? In those words? What happened when you reported her for incompetence?

NCT instructor training it looks quite extensive but I know nothing about it.

The NHS doesn't seem to share much info about forceps deliveries. Their website describes the procedure as 'a gentle tug' but the majority of women who have an emergency assisted delivery know that's not quite the case at all.
I imagine more people would refuse them if they saw videos and knew more details about the procedure. (And c-section rates would go up)

“It is ok to want a natural birth. It’s not ok to say that people who aren’t able to have one are bad and at fault”
Of course. And I must be lucky because I have never heard anyone say that.

@BertrandRussell Yes, you must be. It's important to understand that other people have had different experiences to ourselves, isn't it.

I had someone tell me that I simply must breastfeed as I 'hadn't been able to give birth properly', because I had an emergency c-section.

I joined NCT for friends. I learned very little from the classes but the friends I’ve made have been an incredible support and I feel that it was money well spent.

If there was something similar without all the natural stuff, I would have done that instead.

@BenWillbondsPants that’s awful. I can’t believe anybody would be stupid and rude enough to say that. I mean, I do believe it happened, but it’s unbelievable. Why are people such d**ks?!

“@BertrandRussell Yes, you must be. It's important to understand that other people have had different experiences to ourselves, isn't it.”

Of course. And I hope you told whoever said that to you about bf to shut the fuck up.

“If there was something similar without all the natural stuff, I would have done that instead.”

I’m curious. Did you not want to hear about the “natural stuff” at all? Would you not even have considered a “natural” birth? (I use inverted commas, by the way because I hate the use of natural in this context, but I know it’s a well understood shorthand.

@BertrandRussell Of course.

It's such a shame that some women are so unsupportive of other women's experiences and even question their choices.

I agree with you OP. I have no experience of NCT but I did NHS antenatal classes and the message was similar.

Personally, I had a drug-free, quick, ‘straightforward’ labour - but suffered a third degree tear that wasn’t detected until later. No amount of ‘relaxing’ would have prevented that.

I would like to see maternity care where women are told absolutely honestly of the risks involved in each option and asked ‘how would you prefer to deliver?’ At present the risks are obfuscated. For example, at present the risks associated with elective c-sections are vastly exaggerated because the statistics available conflate emergency and elective sections. Women aren’t really warned of the risk of severe tearing or pelvic floor dysfunction associated with vaginal birth.

I would also like to see women be given a more individualised assessment of the risks in their case. For example, a 35 year old has a greater chance of sustaining a severe tear than a 20 year old. Knowing what I know now (doctors are much more honest with you after birth) I was at high risk for a severe tear, with the baby measuring large, joint hypermobility syndrome, and because of my age. But I was never told. I know that 6-8% of first time mums get them but I didn’t realise that my chance was far greater. In our antenatal class (all older mums) there were three third degree tears, 2 forceps and episiotomy deliveries and 2 emergency sections. Ironically, by far the most straightforward delivery and recovery was had by the only mum of twins in the group - because she had a planned section!

The message I hate the most is ‘your body is DESIGNED for this’. Firstly, it makes women who don’t have a straightforward delivery feel like their bodies are somehow defective. Secondly, it’s bollocks. ‘Intelligent design’ is not a scientific theory. There’s no design. There’s no designer. Like it or not, until relatively recently, childbirth was one of nature’s ways of keeping the human population under control - and it was very effective. ‘Mother Nature is kind’, we were told in one of our antenatal classes. No she’s not. Look at the world. She’s a vicious, unjust bitch, which is why we’re so lucky to have lifesaving medical care.

The NCT does not have an ideaology of promoting 'natural' birth (a phrase that is thought of as not useful these days). If you can find stuff on their website that promotes rejecting medical intervention when desired or needed please do post about it.

As well as the high standard of training and assessment, the NCT seeks electronic feedback from each client after the course. Practitioners are also assessed every three years. As I mentioned before there is also a robust complaints procedure so if anyone experiences any of the bonkers behaviour claimed on this thread please do complain. If you go to a course with an independent hypnobirthing or antenatal practitioner (with their possible weeks training) then there is no one else to complain to.

@Blue2309 I'm glad I'm not the only one who formed that opinion of PBC! Glad too I only paid a discount rate. Lip service to any interventions/pain relief being ok, talk of evidence base, then very much pushing birth in a pool at home as the way to go. There's a whole video on refusing induction without mentioning rising risk of stillbirth (some vague mention of placenta not being as effective). It seems very well liked though and people I have met/spoken to seem very trusting of the explanation given of birth, including that it's fear/adrenaline that stops cervix dilating, when actually it's much more likely multi factorial. Also the fact you're literally not allowed to say anything negative about it in the Facebook group is probably very effective at promoting positive feedback and removing any kind of critical analysis of the method.
I think sometimes things aren't explicitly said (although they often are) but there is an increasingly pervasive view that hypnobirthing and pools and MLUs (where you often can't access epidural) are the way to go. In my experience, I didn't even see a doctor until things went wrong, and midwives gave very limited information on birth itself. It's not surprising then that people seek out these side industries of NCT/hypnobirthing/yoga, who are all too happy to give advice, even when they're not professionals. And yes, perhaps people should be more critical of these views but on the one hand it's nice to think it's going to be ok, and on the other they very much push being 'positive' so if you're the one arguing against it in your yoga class/NCT group there's a bit of social stigma attached. Although the others may well thank you for it in the end.

I think the NCT got its lentil weaving reputation because there was once a very strict demarcation between woman centred and doctor centred birth. The NCT was the first organisation to try to put as much control as possible in the hands of the woman- and the medical establishment really didn’t like it. So many things that are seen as quite normal now were considered radical not very long ago- being allowed to move about in labour, trying different positions to deliver. Even having fathers or other people with you in the delivery room. It was quite a battle- the medical establishment always hates to relinquish any power!

NCT practitioners don't give advice.

@bertrandrussell
'the medical establishment always hates to relinquish any power'

There are issues with patriarchy in natal medicine and it could be a lot better but I don't think what you've said above is the case at all.

@Moncwf I had to beg my midwife to see a doctor when my labour was going wrong. When the doctors came to sort it out I really felt like they were the adults in the room. I was finally going to get the help I needed.
Having a medicalised birth this time round!

She genuinely said that?

She did say that yes. The wording might not be 100 percent as it was nearly 5 years ago but close enough. She also shut down every attempt to bring up interventions. I'm still very good friends with someone from that class and she still brings it up occasionally. The only good thing about the class was the stuff on breastfeeding and the friendships. I did complain about her and a few other things including the midwife who told me I'd had an unnecessary episiotomy during the failed forceps before my emcs (she's no longer working as a midwife and as it turned out, I hadn't had an episiotomy either) after my son's "arrival" and the postpartum psychosis, pstd and pnd I was diagnosed with. I got the usual letter from the chief executive "sorry that you feel that way and we'll try harder next time" etc etc and a debrief in which they went on about perception a lot and how we must have misconstrued what she meant.

They did change how they roll out ante-natal classes and she no longer teaches them but she's still a totally useless community midwife. She came out to see me after the arrival of my 2nd and comiserated me on my "section". Clearly hadn't read my notes otherwise she would have known that dc2 was meant to be born by an elective but I went into labour early. Had a totally unprofessional bitch about the mother she'd seen before with enough identifying details that when I met said new mother at a baby class I was confident enough in the answer to ask her if she'd seen that specific midwife postnatally...the answer was yes. We live in a small rural area and she gave the name of the village, the sex of the child and roughly what went wrong in between moaning about the fact that she couldn't leave earlier due to her "wailing".

I should have complained again I know but I was just glad that I was a functioning human being this time around and I wanted to put everything behind me.

“we must have misconstrued what she meant.”

Seems a common tactic, it’s being heavily implied on this thread too

“I should have complained again I know but I was just glad that I was a functioning human being this time around and I wanted to put everything behind me.“

Absolutely. And the fact that it’s left to women to complain when everyone working with her must have known she was useless is how this sort of thing carries on. The circle closes.

I must have read hundreds of post on MN about NCT classes, where people all 'misconstrued' that natural childbirth is the best and if you just relax, no interventions will be necessary. As we have been told, such things do not happen. Tsk silly women.

“There are issues with patriarchy in natal medicine and it could be a lot better but I don't think what you've said above is the case at all.“
It was certainly the case in childbirth when there were grassroots moves for a more women centred approach. As I said, a lot of the things that are considered quite routine were fought very hard against in the 60s and 70s. Routine episiotomies, automatic legs in stirrups, no say in what drugs were given..... all these things were a matter of course not very long ago at all.

There are issues with patriarchy in natal medicine

Yes - off topic but why are all the maternity consultants at my hospital male?? It makes me really uncomfortable.

The trouble is that part of the role of the NCT antenatal course is to demonstrate how relaxation techniques and breathing can be a useful tool in remaining calm and relaxed in labaour and can also be used during caesarean birth and during parenting too. I use a lot of deep breathing with my teenagers so I don't kill them.

People are often resistant to trying the techniques in sessions. They are often embarrassed and sceptical so the facilitator gives the rationale behind it and had to make a good case - how and why it can work. Sometimes it works only for early labour, sometimes all of it and so sometimes it's not helpful or circumstances intervene.

That's not the same as saying if only you get this bit right you wont need any other pain relief and no interventions. Any one running any sort of antenatal education who says that is bonkers and should be challenged. To not include breathing, relaxation and positions would not be antenatal education however.

There is good evidence that women who have straightforward labours statistically are more likely to have quicker recovery times, less complications after birth such as pain and are more likely to establish breastfeeding. This at the population level ...it means nothing to the individual before I get loads of people shouting at me with their anecdotes. This is why the NHS and the NCT and loads of other organisations are keen to promote ways of maximising the chances, for women who would like straightforward birth, of having one.

More often than not women who want a straightforward birth with their first baby don't get one and they sometimes feel angry or like they have been lied to and often I think that anger is misplaced. The reasons why there are relatively few straightforward first births in the UK are complex which is why I think it's a good idea to be realistic with pregnant women and invite them to look at the stats for emergency c-sections, assisted births etc.

I didn't do NCT, but did a day course at the hospital I gave birth at. It was all very natural birth. They made us rate things best to worse. So intervention / induced / c section was the worse case scenarios section (apparently.) Now I'm a logical person, but I still don't think anyone should be made to feel that things beyond their control are their fault or bad things if they are needed.

And if the breath through it brigade are all right then it's the midwifes that have failed to instruct you and make you feel your best to do your best. Anyway I think it's bollocks.

I had ventouse, my first baby turned out to be 11llbs. Breath through that without assistance. I do agree it took me a very long time to recover from having the baby winched out of me But I don't see that as a failure it was just a long road to recover. I'm pregnant again and I will seriously consider a C section to be honest. Although this one might just drop out after the last one.

We need to find a way of making sure women are properly informed about all aspects of childbirth. I wonder if things are better or worse since One Born Every Minute? I count myself lucky that I was the last in a large and oversharing family to have a baby so I had a whole volume of horror stories to consider at my leisure......