Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

I was thinking about the volunteers thing. If we do decide the NHS can't look after people isn't there an argument for having trained volunteers rather than a free for all? They would be trained, CRB checked, would know where everything in the ward was kept and so be less likely to cause extra trouble to staff, could help more than one mother at a time and would have some familiarity with babies! My dh knew nothing about babies with dc1 and by the time 2 and 3 appeared would have had to be at home with them.
Obviously it's nothing like as nice as the new father being there but in a crowded ward could be potentially far less disruptive.

Why on earth are women still put into massive postnatal wards? This does not happen in most of Europe, in countries which have equivalent (taxpayer funded universal care) healthcare systems.

How come other countries manage to have single occupant rooms, even for those who have had surgery, and adequate staffing levels? Are they spending massively more as a % of GDP on this?

The stories here, of women recovering from major, traumatic surgery, being neglected, unable to move to pick up a baby and just being left to it, of noisy visitors, overcrowded wards are just appalling. Visitors cannot be used as cheap care! The infection risk from overcrowding alone is appalling, never mind sharing bathrooms with visitors/men sleeping on floors etc.

Fucking dreadful.

Skipton puts it perfectly. It's like we have become so enured to poor care that we are blind to the obvious risks and willing to accept a situation that - in any other context - would be totally unacceptable.

I really object to having concerns about safeguarding conflated with having delicate sensibilities

I would really question the motives of someone who wanted to frame the issue this way

I just wonder Ellie whether that would just make them even more likely to lie and cover-up, doctor notes, deny, etc.

My DH had a patient die suddenly and it was referred to the coroner. He was massively affected by this and anxious for the family, who were understandably looking for answers. I am not a person who usually leaps to the defence of the NHS, but there are some good staff who do care. The problem (imo) is getting rid of the shitty, sadistic ones. And midwifery seems to have more than its fair share of those.

I do have an issue with removing care from a baby and a mother just because someone else is a little delicate about their sensibilities.

It is not about delicate sensibilities. You are minimising the effect that mixed post natal wards can have on recovering women. I don't believe staff simply decide to remove care from a baby because there isn't a dp/h present. Again, allowing untrained (and your dp is, in all likelyhood untrained) family take up the role of hcp will make poor care normal, expected even and the situation worse.

In my experience with ds (18 months ago) we were in a private room but it wasn't ensuite so had he stayed dp would have had to leave the room to use the toilet so not completely away from other women. i can only assume it's the same now except this time he'll be allowed to stay. Even with a private room it might bother other women. They have introduced this without proper facilities and safe guards in order to cover up shitty care and staffing levels.

You've stated over and over Ellie that you would like the criminalisation of mw. Doctors can already be charged with gross negligence manslaughter. There are consequences for negligence. I don't particularly want hcp working under constant fear either. The exodus if it became common place would be huge. I don't have an amazingly high opinion of mw either and some of my care was pretty shit but to latbel all nhs staff as not really giving a fuck is plainly wrong.

"Delicate sensibilities"

I think MN should campaign for appropriate staffing levels and a return to proper visiting hours and infection/behaviour control in all post-natal wards.

This situation is shocking and I am horrified by what I read here. When I my dcs there were always exceptions to the rule made on a case by case basis which allowed for some of the extreme cases where people would want their OH nearby but it was on the understanding that best behaviour, quiet and consideration was essential or OH was out til visiting time.

The free for all situation being described here is like 24hr visiting times - a crazy situation which must inhibit care, raise safety and infection risk and be utterly intrusive and harrowing for those trying to recover from birth.

I'm very uncomfortable with the slating that you're giving all NHS midwives (all HCP?), Ellie. They're just normal people doing a job. Most of them will be honest, hard working and trying their best not to make a serious mistake. If they do, they would do everything to correct it and not make the same mistake in the future.

If they're negligent or mistreat people then of course they can be charged criminally for it.

Nicky We have laws. All HCPs need to do is understand them and obey them. If a hospital cannot provide a private room for a patient, and as a result of that, has to break the law and remove a parents right to be present and decide on his/her child's care, levy a fine of is say, £250K per incident.

They will soon come to the realisation that it is cheaper to provide care and obey the law, than remove care and flout the law.

Chibi Likewise, I would question the moral compass of a mother who would put her own concerns of privacy and dignity over the health of another mother's baby. Babies die in hospitals because HCP are not available to respond to buzzers. Mothers sustain injury and disabilities as a result of being neglected by NHS staff on wards. Just because it hasn't happened to someone, doesn't mean it does not happen, not does it mean it will not happen to them.

As I see it, short of improving accountability and suitability of staff on wards, the choice is between saving lives and maintaining mothers in good health, and subjecting some to a lack of privacy and dignity.

For me, selfish as it might sound, I will always put the health of my baby over another woman's privacy. I wish it were different, but until it is, my baby's health comes before anything you're feeling. Sorry.

CultureSucksDownWords As others have posted most vociferously, and in discussions in the past, this is not unknown. It is more common that the NHS are willing to admit. And naturally everyone who works for the NHS would say, "I'd never act like that." I can only talk from personal experience. I have not received the care you have received or met the staff you have met.

but replacing staff with visitors to enable adequate care is not a solution and is ignoring the problem of low staffing levels surely?

but it's the NHS job to care for health of mothers and babies: if we are not confident hospitals can do that then we should campaign for change! Not say "I'm bringing my man in because he'll keep us safe and sod the rest of you", what is this, The Flintstones?!

Suggest that MNHQ seek a webchat session on this issue with whichever current politicians commit to single sex wards and / or the head of one of the hospitals with the policy of men allowed to stay on postnatal wards 24/7.

agreed duck

Enough said, I guess.
If one thing is guaranteed, it is that things will get worse, not better.

I can only pray everyone has a dignified and caring birth experience, and brings home healthy babies.

If I'm on your ward, I will be fighting for my rights to be respected, and if my child needs care, I will be fighting for my partners rights to be present too. In such a circumstance, it is best the baby be placed in a private room, but if the midwives decide in their wisdom to impose me and DP upon you all, we are quiet and private, and we regret being placed in such situations.

in that scenario Ellie the staff would simply call security and your partner would be made to leave.

Binkle, exactly. It's a silent problem unless we all speak up - relying on partners not just as 'support' for mums but actually to replace the jobs that HCPs should be doing is unacceptable, and the extent to which it happens based on this thread I find slightly terrifying. (It happens at my most local hospital but not at any of the other nearby ones as far as I know, so I thought it was not widespread).

The hygiene and overcrowding implications of partners sleeping on the floor or plastic chairs are worrying - my DH simply couldn't have slept like that so I made him go home to get a few hours rest. Also the assumption from HCPs that the partner WILL stay, and criticising mothers for 'letting' their partner go home to rest, is just not on. Who else is going to be doing all the care once mother and baby get home? I desperately needed my DH to get a bit of rest while he still could!

FWIW there were mother-only showers and toilets on our ward, and a separate toilet for visitors only, so no risk of partners ending up in the showers meant only for mothers. I never saw a dad going in there, at any rate (unless it was to help the mother with showering)

Don't worry Ellie, should I be in a ward with you and your partner I will endeavor to discharge myself as soon as I can drag myself out of my bed, and as soon as my baby is sufficiently well. I wouldn't want to impose my "delicate sensibilities", or as I like to call it, my mental health, on you.

And I am clearly not saying that all NHS staff are perfect! It's very clear from my post that I'm saying that most of them are normal people doing a normal job. Some of them, clearly by your experience are evil bastards who need to face criminal charges. But not all, or even most, or probably not even a significant minority.

...the policy of men allowed to stay on postnatal wards 24/7.
Don't get me wrong. I clearly differentiate between partners who 'wish' to stay but have no legal right or just expectation to do so, and partners who's children are being cared for on the ward and to whom the law has seen fit to enshrine their rights in law. We are talking about two very different sets of circumstances here.

Duck I completely agree. I remember the furore that Janet Street Porter caused when her dying aunt (?) was sexually assaulted by a dementia patient in a mixed ward. Suddenly there was an outcry and the NHS had a policy toget rid of them. The mixed post natal situation is even worse because the presence of men is becoming routine and being packaged as something which is in women's best interests, when it plainly isn't.

What is that law then, Ellie?

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree but after my c section, I was depressed and lonely and wanted my husband there as much as possible....but it wasn't allowed.
It is men in general or would you feel the same if it was the female partner/wife of a same sex couple?

I'm not trying to play devils advocate but just thinking it's probably people on the PN ward in general you mean, rather than only men?

In that scenario Ellie the staff would simply call security and your partner would be made to leave. It hasn't happened yet. I have yet to meed a head midwife that is willing to remove DPs rights once she has admitted that DC has become the patient. Once you've buried your babies, you do tend to lose your fear of confronting medical staff, and with a history like mine, they do tend to listen.

my experience on the postnatal ward was very much like another I've read on here: I discharged me and DD early as one night there was hell on earth and I got no sleep... only to have to be readmitted a few days later. It was horrible and the care was crap and it makes me scared to do it again.

disclaimer: I know the NHS is full of good people and each Trust is different.