Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

I accept that my experience of post natal care, should I be lucky enough to be pregnant again, will be something that I don't want and don't agree with. I have no idea how I can handle this, but I will just have to suck it up for the benefit of women in your situation who are terrified of being alone on an NHS ward.

But at least at present, with those mothers and babies who require attention and have birth partners caring for them, not diverting care from those who choose not to keeps more babies alive. you stand a better chance of having a good outcome in the system as it is run at the moment, than in your desired partner free environment.

Not in our maternity hospital, thank God.

So, hypothetically, if a child becomes a patient, needs treatment for something but is not to be admitted to SCBU. the decision is made that mother and baby are to stay on the ward while treatment is given and observations made.

Does you hospital remove the fathers right to be with his child?
Removing an ill child from its parent and refusing that parent access to observe and protect their own child most certainly is against the law.

Maybe get rid of all the nurses and midwives since they are so crap anyway, just have an airplane hangar somewhere where women can give birth with their husbands attending to their needs

Just think of the savings, it's only logical

Right, well the solution to that is to have private rooms for all women as they do in some newer hospitals/wards. Which isn't going to happen given current funding issues.

Exactly. But people in the UK are not willing to pay the extra tax to improve the service. Nor would they be willing to pay for services at point of use. Most people believe they should be entitled to everything for free.

There is insufficient staffing.
There are insufficient rooms available.
There is a culture of concealing neglect and error.
There is a culture of misreporting or omitting facts in patients records.

Until the NHS protects and cares for its patients, particularly those unable to care for themselves, and until NHS staff become criminally liable for their errors and the more egregious instances of neglect, then allowing care to be provided by loved ones is the only solution available to most mothers.

If they choose not to take it, that is entirely their choice. And if the NHS dismisses birth partners after visiting hours are over, that is their legal right to do so. but if they treat the child, a whole plethora of parental rights kick in, and parents would do well to acquaint themselves with them, because in some cases a birth partner being present is the difference between life and death of a baby, and its not like anyone in the NHS is going to go home and grieve. Its not like the midwife can be held responsible for your child's neglect.

Maybe get rid of all the nurses and midwives since they are so crap anyway.

If you think you can do a job, why not step up to the mark and say, 'I can do this job and I will take responsibility for my actions?' If you believe that your employer is putting peoples lives at risk, through neglect, why not stand by your belief and take action to publicise the abuse?

Or is it a case that midwives don't want to take personal responsibility for the care they give, fear having negligence and errors come back to bite them, and won't act in patients best interests by outing abuse, because they'd rather have a pay packet to take home to their own families, than a clear moral conscience?

When a baby dies, do midwives just go home and say, 'ah, well, it would have died anyways. it wasn't our fault?' When medication missed or given in error, do midwives just say, 'ah well, mistakes happen. I was busy.'? How do they actually justify these things to themselves?

chibi Yes, of course, how very logical. After all, because given that partners are already allowed at every antenatal appointment, in the labour and maternity wards overnight ... because they are needed for support, somehow all of the midwives, nurses, sonographers all must have been crap and sacked in place of the husbands too right?!

How selfish must these men be, wanting to be there for their wives . What bastards!

I have had family members in hospital, though not in this country

I would not have been impressed if there had been an expectation that I needed to oversee and provide their care

What happens to those who have no one?

Partners already have visiting hours that cover most of the day

Other visitors also have dedicated times

If there are not enough trained staff to meet new mothers' needs outside these hours then fix that don't draft in family helpers to plug the gap

chibi, they're stuffed aren't they? They'd better hope that someone else's partner is kind enough to help them too. If not then their new born baby is liable to be severely affected by the neglect they are undoubtedly going to experience from NHS nurses, midwives, doctors etc. it's a frightening world to live in.

I would pay higher taxes to fund the NHS, but I guess that's not a popular view point.

It is just backwards

In no other area of health care would it be acceptable to expect people to pitch in and sort their care out amongst themselves

Actually, 15 years ago, when my mother was ill and on a surgical post-op ward, I had to be there to ensure her care. Same thing with visitng hours - as soon as they were over, she would be begging me to come back as soon as possible the next day. She was regularly forgotten about. Catheter bag not emptied. She had a stoma, and wouldn't be given the necessary care. She was overlooked, and went without more than one meal. Once I turned up, and her tray table had been wheeled out of her reach by the cleaners, and not moved back again all day. The cleaners came before 10am. I visited at gone 3 (as soon as I could after work). She had not had even a sip of water in that time, and her linch was plonked on the table which she could not reach. As I walked into the ward, I could hear her bell ringing. The staff were all stood at the ward desk, chatting ;and no, it wasn't an emergency). This was not the only time similar happened - other relatives could tell similar stories from when they visited. This level of non-care is not a new thing, and doesn't just happen on maternity wards. My mother was terminally ill, and needed extensive major surgery. Her care was shocking. She only lasted as long as she did because we, her family, picked up the slack.

In no other area of health care would it be acceptable to expect people to pitch in and sort their care out amongst themselves.

Sorry, isn't that the how the whole of outpatient care works now? There aren't 'community' resources caring for patients anymore outside of hospitals.

I am talking about inside hospitals, don't be disingenuous.

I would pay higher taxes to fund the NHS, but I guess that's not a popular view point. Sadly not... Clearly some people are not even willing to be content with what they are given.

An open question, and I'm not the only one here to have experienced this...

How many babies lives if your right to privacy worth to you? If a baby on the other side of the curtain can be saved by a partner, sister or friend of the mother, whilst she is incapacitated, dehydrated or medicated, would you rather the baby die that have your privacy infringed?

Not my problem Ellie If there aren't enough staff to ensure that doesn't happen take it up with the NHS.

There is nothing that will convince me that men should be allowed to stay overnight on a women's ward.

You do know that women have been abused and assaulted by partners of other patients, don't you?

Chibi, as was I.

In between my mother's abysmal care back in 2000, and dd2 being born in 2007, my family also had personal experience of:

My grandmother being poorly looked after, and as a result of that care dying in hospital. The way my grandfather was treated after her death was also shocking (and its a miracle he survived the way the news was broken - he turned up to visit her to be told bluntly 'oh, she died')

My father died of a 'superbug' infection contacted during a routine hospital stay

My great aunt also received poor care during a hospital stay, so much so that her sister (an ex-nursing sister) virtually moved intonthe ward and refused to leave so she could carry out care duties - said great aunt was 87 at the time

Maternity care (or lack of due to overstretched understaffed wards) is not a new or isolated thing.

Mythical - my baby was very nearly one who deteriorated badly due to shocking care (and it could so easily have been avoided - her deterioration was brought on by bad practise, she wasn't ill in any way and was a healthy full term newborn). It may not matter to you, but it bloody does to me. Collateral damage is never acceptable.

I was talking to Ellie with my reference to hospital care

I am relatively new to this country and my only substantive experience with the nhs has been through maternity services or for my children

I find it appealing that the quality of care you receive depends on how engaged your family is on your behalf

I think this can't possibly be right

With my first I had a private room ( very ill)
With my second I was on a ward. There were four beds and at one in the morning they turned the light on and admitted a lady...she had four family members with her. They were noisy and very irritating. ( for hours) The next day she had ten visitors! They were shockingly noisy and the baby was crying to be fed. The very young mother was not feeding the baby due to her visitors. ( attempting to bf) by the evening she had given up on Breast feeding and the nurse shouted at her for not feeding the baby. Baby was crying and she wasn't making up a bottle or even aware that baby needed feeding.

It was a horrid experience. Made much worse by her army of visitors. I was glad to leave and told her mother how selfish they were. The hospital has now changed policy and only allow 2 visitors.

If the only options are dead babies or no privacy, then I really think the NHS should give up even trying to provide adequate care because it's plainly unfit for purpose!

Hypothetically, I would also be willing to pay more to ensure this kind of thing didn't happen IF standards could be raised to those of other countries (including individual rooms being the norm). However, I am cynical about the ability of the NHS to deliver this, but also very jaundiced after a friend's wife died in childbirth in the supposed "times of plenty". (Details would be idenifying, but I do get how appalling the care can be).

I still don't think men should be on women's wards (or vice versa).

I find it appalling, not appealing, I hope that was clear despite the typo

I have real problems with the way the argument is framed- either babies suffer and or die, or women's privacy, dignity and safety is compromised. We can't have healthy babies and well cared for mothers, clearly

To me the obvious thing is to address the standard of care, not try to plug the gaps and allow it to continue

I am sure there are excellent reasons why the standard of care cannot be addressed which I don't appreciate, I would love to know what they are though

Incidentally, because I live overseas I looked up the cost of an ELCS privately at one of the London hospitals a few years ago. It was about GBP7k. Considering the NHS charges 800 quid a night for a private room (which presumably might not be en suite?) that now looks like a bit of a bargain!

Still completely out of reach for many though. I just don't understand why it is tolerated and I agree with chibi's comment above.

To me the obvious thing is to address the standard of care, not try to plug the gaps and allow it to continue.

Exactly. But you cannot remove care from one set of patients (being provided by birth partners), just because another set of patients are content with lower standards of care. You have to address the care issue first, and then remove the parents rights.

I wish people would stop refering to it as a 'right to privacy' as if it's just a matter of being too precious. It's not. It's simply the right to be treated the same as other types of in-patients where mixed sex wards are accepted to be sub-standard care. It is also a matter of mental health for some women, who would suffer in this kind of environment.

As for making it a "dead babies versus privacy" argument, that is just ridiculous and not what people are saying at all.

I still don't think men should be on women's wards

I agree with your comments. But in some instances it is hard for someone to find someone else they are willing to trust completely at their time of need. Both my mother and sister are doormats.