Oh FFS is Vbac really better than another section?

[Flum]

Trying to work out if it is worth holding out or not.....

Recovery of any operation is many days... it's not because you feel you have recovered that you actually have... it's the same with women who deliverd vaginally and feel that 4 hours later they can do their food shopping in Tescos... daft really and more importantly dangerous ! Childbirth (which ever way is not about a competition of who is out and about first!)
There is a reason why driving is delayed (not always by 6 weeks it depends on the insurance company actually)... because you have a scar in the lower abdomen, three layers off you were sliced ! You may feel fine but what happens to your scar if you have re-opened it ? It does happen !

As for infertility, well I have read the research.. it's to do with possible damage from the operation!... There has been speculation that postoperative endomyometritis, pelvic adhesions, and uterine cavity damage following cesarean section may predispose to subsequent infertility. Read \link{http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3618689&dopt=Abstract\this study}

and what about this : There were fewer second children, subsequent children and twin deliveries in the cesarean section groups than in the control groups. The ratio of spontaneous abortions to births was somewhat higher in the cesarean section groups, but the difference was not statistically significant. Apparently the findings were due not only to selection in the first cesarean section but possibly also to the operation itself.
From \link{http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3746793&dopt=Abstract\here}

I am sure that some women with difficult (horrible) births will restrict themselves... why were the births bad ? How was the care ? Why was the section done ? SOmetimes not fast enought sometimes too quickly....

If the difference on spontious abortion isn't statisticaly significan't then it isn't 'real' for want of a better word.

The difference between the two groups is smaller than the difference within each group. which means there is no effective difference between the two groups. So in the study you quote there is no effect of c section on spontaneous abortion.

sorry, statistics pedant, all my post graduate research overcame me there for a moment

You have to be brave on Mumsnet to say that natural birth is a good thing by risk of offending women who had c-sections.... sad really... it's the same with breast and bottle feeding. Breastfeeders are often on the defensive.

Why do women who have "normal" experiences feel they have to defend and apologise for their choices.... because which ever side you're on people judge... see on a personal level I don't give a toss what people think of my personal opinion and choiced... yeah bring on drug free childbirth - it IS the thing I have done that I am most proud of ! And it was very hard work !!!! But it was a choice I made.

I work with too many women scared by bad births - that includes c-sections (and not always emergencies!!!!)

I think you are missing the point.... you scar a uterus when you do a section... this can lead to infertility problems....
Right logging off... need to do other things tonight!

well said.
I thought I must be about the only person to feel that vaginal birth was fab and a real acheivement. If you opt for a section because you are too scared to try for a natural birth then you should go and find some proper support, like doula to help you

well said. I thought I must be about the only person to feel that vaginal birth was fab and a real acheivement. If you opt for a section because you are too scared to try for a natural birth then you should go and find some proper support, like doula to help you

well said. I thought I must be about the only person to feel that vaginal birth was fab and a real acheivement. If you opt for a section because you are too scared to try for a natural birth then you should go and find some proper support, like doula to help you

well said. I thought I must be about the only person to feel that vaginal birth was fab and a real acheivement. If you opt for a section because you are too scared to try for a natural birth then you should go and find some proper support, like doula to help you

don't know what happened there

sorry, I didn't make any comment on post section infertility at all. You posted that post section there was a non statisticaly significant rise in spontaeus abortion. The reasrchers not I , stated that this in non statisticaly significant.

In case readers were worried that they may have raied their risks of a MC I felt that I had to point out that in research term, non statisticaly significan't means there was no 'real' difference between the groups at all.

I was pointing out this, because many people misunderstan the concept of 'statistical significace'

Please don't mistake my posts for other peole, or put words in my mouth that I did not intend.

Spacedust, who are you really? Two posts in the history of mumsnet? I doubt it. Reveal yourself.

Pupuce, my post was an equal opposite reaction to spacedust. I think if someone wants a natural birth, then that's her choice. Likewise I think if someone wants a setion then that too should be nothing more than her choice. People who say things like spacedust's post actually cause these bad feeling in women who have caesarians, and that is out of line.

Re the subsequent infetility problem following caesarean, that is simply not true unless by some slim chance the egg attampts to implant righ on the scar, but that doesn't really happen. At least that's what I have heard/read.

If only you had known me before I ever needed a caesarean... I never even thought I would have one. But now that I have I get really pissed off at people who want to make me feel bad about it.

sorry, I didn't make any comment on post section infertility at all. You posted that post section there was a non statisticaly significant rise in spontanous abortion. The reserchers ,not I , stated that this was not statisticaly significant.

In case readers were worried that they may have raied their risks of a MC I felt that I had to point out that in research terms, non statisticaly significan't means there was no 'real' difference between the groups at all.

I was pointing out this, because many people misunderstand the concept of 'statistical significance'

Please don't mistake my posts for other peole, or put words in my mouth that I did not intend.

sorry, don't know what happened to my posts there either.

I think that it is important that women get the birth that they want.

I am always delighted that a woman has an excellent vaginal delivers and feels a sense of achievemnt.

I had two excellent c sections and also felt a great sense of achievement after both of them.

I am new to this. But i do think there is a lot of skirting rlound issues going on. What's that point of having a discussion if you are not honest.
uwila no one is trying to make you feel bad. If you feel bad that is because of feelings you have and I''m sorry that you do. I am just expressing my opinion. It goes against the current trend, that's all. In a few years time it will all be different again

Spacedust, I think your view is the current trend. I think women are discouraged from sections when they are medically justified. I think hospitals are scared to perform section because it's bad for their vaginal birth stats. I think more babies would be born heathy if hospitals were quicker to move to mediccal intervention.

"I think more babies would be born heathy if hospitals were quicker to move to medical intervention."

That is NOT the issue.... hospitals muck up a lot of births... Mumsnet is a testament to this
Sadly many women do not realise this until it is toolate... inductions for the sake of inductions "because it's Friday and we won't be able to fit you in before next wednesday"... is a pitiful excuse that leads to many unnecessary bad births... so do early inductions for spontaneuous rupture of membranes! Just to name 2 reasons why sections are rate are higher than they need be ! Allow women to ahve a good 1st birth and you will significantly have less sections... it is unusual to have a section if you already had a good vaginal birth.
There is a reason why home births and birth centre have better stats than hospitals on likes for likes (i.e. LOW risk pregnancies).

Spacedust - I do have a lot of sympathy for women who are scared sxxless of vaginal births and they request a section... I just wish we had the resources to support them better. And you can scare women easily believe me !

When I was having ds, it was decided to yank him out with forceps ( and by that point I was profoundly thankful for the assistance).

I had a spinal anaesthetic just in case a C section was required, and of course had no feelings from the boobs down. I was told that the midwife would tell me when the next contaraction was and I had to push as hard as I could. I asked how could do that as I couldn't feel any thing, but people seemed a bit preoccupied by then. So I just screwed up my face and everyone told me what a good job I was doing.

"I" wasn't pushing at all. There was no conscious control over the process at all. When I had dd, it all went much more simply, but again, I don't think there was any achievement in pushing her out. My uterus was doing it with no conscious input. I can't see childbirth as an "achievement" to be proud of. I didn't do anything better second time than first. I was luckier, that's all!

pupuce, I am the example of the woman who was pressured into a 40 week induction because of dd's heart condition (despite wanting an active natural birth) and ending up with an emergency c-section under GA because dd went into distress - because I was determined not to have an epidural for as long as possible.

At least I did not go through the entire labour and the recovery was fine (agree with Tutti Frutti's post). Now having heard of the horror stories of botched vaginal births, on MN and in RL, I no longer have any interest in an active birth or VBAC to prove something to myself.

I won't take the risk of a HVBAC or submit myself to monitoring and jumpiness on the part of MWs/doctors in hospital. So elective it is. Fine to state the risk stats of CS. But I know I will stop at this baby (BTW had no trouble conceiving), power to real women who give birth naturally, but I believe hospitals are better at cs than natural, sadly.

Pupuce, I do agree with you.
Women are NOT supported properly in both pregnacy and childbirth. They are blinded by "statistics" and guided by medical staff who have their own agendas. They are not guided in a direction which gives them confidence in their own bodies. They are fiddled with, induced, drugged up and bullied. I have used a Doula for my children's births and found that a tremendous support.
If you are frightened then your chances of a good birth are severley hampered; Tied to a bed with monitors, given little or no emotional support. It makes me so angry that so many women have a truly horrendous 1st birth experience that they feel their only option is a section next time.

Haven't read the whole thread, other than it appears to be getting a little personal...

I had a VBAC. My c-section was a traumatic emergency c-section after over 30 hours in labour, failed ventouse and forceps.

My VBAC was again after 30 hours of labour, bit hit and miss and very lucky to have a natural birth. It was one of the most wonderful experiences of my life, I cried buckets to hold my little bundle. It totally healed all the pain and disappointment of my first c-section.

I have nothing against c-sections, my first probably saved mine or my babies life, but for me it was totally worth all the effort in trying for a natural birth.

The one thing I would do would differently is that I would have hired a doula, as I didn't realise how far the trauma of my first birth still affected me and affected my labour the second time round. I was lucky I had a fabby Irish midwife the second time round, but that was luck not planning..

We really need to spread the message about DOULAS so few women have heard of them

Actually, because the stats of the risks of a cs were bigged up, I was made to feel like I had a horrendous first birth (when I ended up with em cs). But in hindsight, it was a far better experience than a horrendous vaginal birth. I don't feel my only choice this time round is an elective, but I would definitely prefer it over the risk of a botched natural birth.

It is not necessarily a traumatised woman or one that has lost confidence in her natural abilities that would choose cs. A woman can make a perfectly rational decision to choose cs based on pure assessment of risk to herself and baby in the light of existing circumstances.

At the time of my VBAC I spent hours on mumsnet getting the wisdom of Pupuce and Mears, it helped give me the courage to try for a VBAC and learn a bit more about childbirth. I also spoke to pupuce about Doualas - in the end I didn't use one because of cost. Luckily it wasn't an mistake, but it well of could been.

The difference a good midwife or douala makes is phenomenal - my midwife gave me emotional support, kept me moving as much as possible with an epidural and monitoring and helped evacuate me when she thought it was holding up labour [grimace]. I always think of her when its DS2 birthday..

So thanks all your mumsnetters (especially Mears and Pupuce) - you do make a real difference!

we have a fanny to give birth , it is the normal and natyral way . i can get jumped for all i care but i really believe this . a CS is not normal or natural . it should be used for emergency only and i think that is what gods intentions were . i am no way religious either i had 3 normal deliveries and yes i am proud that i gave birth this way . i am sorry for a mother who had a CS as i cant see anyway anyone would like to have one by choice. ob apart from 2nd and 3rd babies where they have to weigh up the risks.

i do believe that if the baby and not forgetting the mother is healthy then thats is the most important thing but to some mothers the way the baby enters the world is important to them too .

just IMO