Oh FFS is Vbac really better than another section?

[Flum]

Trying to work out if it is worth holding out or not.....

But, Spacedust, do you see that posts like yours actually make women feel bad about unplanned sections. We get so pumped about about the benefits of natural childbirth in antenatal classes, in midwife appointments, from the NCT, from these posts that when things go wrong and a section is required that the women is made to feel she has failed. No one along the way says, this is the theatre, we have x anaesthetists on call, and if you require a section, the procedure will go like this. None of that information is presented. So it comes as a big shock when suddenlycordss are flying and your signing a consent for for suregery at 3am. And THEN, after the birth people start telling you they are sorry. Eh? Your sorry? Don't you mean "congratulations"????

So, it isn't the procedure itself that make women feel bad. It's the things people say to them. Things just like your original post.

Spacedust - you have no idea if it matters to me ot not. Nor do you have any idea what my birth experiences have been.

Your opening post did not refer to the woman to whom it mattered but to the 'wrongness' of the general concept of a c-section delivery. That is what I was asking you to explain - why if someone says to her it doesn't matter is she a liar or kidding herself? What is your evidence, not your opinion because that is not evidence, for this bold statement.

I fully accept that some woman have a need to deliver naturally - indeed in some rare cases to the detriment of both them and their child. Possible because of the demonising of c-sections? However I don't think their view should inform the wider debate with any greater weighting than the views/beliefs of anyone else.

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Looks like it Norm

'Tis a shame - might have been able to guess who she was by the end of it - given the improvment in her postings from start to finish.......

Yeah, I was wondering about that dust. Do you think it's available on the NHS?

Uwila, emegency sections are emergencies. I have been there .It is a traumatic experience and no one would wish that, but they are done for a reason and thank heavens we have that safetynet.
I put my post up in answer to a question about planned sections. I found the title "ffs" very antognistic. Unfortunately for a lot of women their experiences of hospital birth is truely awful. I have had oks and craps. I choose a doula because I knew I would not get the support unless I paid for it. That is not right atall. Anyway it appears I am the only person here who thinks the way I do at the moment.
Gomez, all debates and opnions should have equal weighting, so why am i being attacked for having opnions that seem to go against the grain?? That is not right

I don't think you understand what I was saying. It is the lack of information on section and the abundance of pressure for vaginal births that contribute to women feeling bad about setions. It isn't the procedure itself.

How bout if we go round telling 60 year old men what failures they are for relying on the inserion of a stint to save them from a heart attack. Imean it really isn't natural. Just lay off the steak and chips, buddy. So, let's creat a new NHS guideline that suggests we reduce the nuber of heart surgeries. How stupid would that be?

Isn't it a bit bizzarre of people like Spacedust and others to disagree with how other women give birth? What does it matter to you if another person's baby is born by c-section or vbac? I am normally quite opinionated, but I have abolutely no interest in how other women give birth as long as mother and baby are doing well.

Has Flum had her baby yet then? She mentioned being booked in for an elective yesterday (I think) further down the thread.

I had an emergency section with dd1, which was awful and a VBAC with dd2 which although painful, made me feel v powerful.

Also, if you have one of each you can be a bore and a font of all knowledge on both subjects....

Spacedus - you are not being attacked at all but only asked to explain opinions/statements you have made on this thread. I haven't noticed anyone calling you a liar in respect of your views, implying you are deluded or offering pity for your birth experiences.

As an aside - it may be worth you considering that the experience and views of a mother requiring a c-section after labouring when they really did not envisage or consider one may be very different from a mother who chose an elective or was accepting of the need for an emergency. Possible slightly more baggage to cloud their view.

Snipey comments aren't really where you should be. Would knowing who I was or where I lived make you feel better? You'd still have to deal with my opnions. If it makes you feel better to bitch then do so. If I choose not to answer for a while it is because I am not constantly glued to the screen. Maybe I am making a tea, going to the loo, who knows. I have not made a snide personal comment about any person here, it's sad you feel the need to do so. still if it makes you feel like a better person, do it. It doesn't change what i think or what has been said, it simply changes the accent of this discussion

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I felt like I had failed after my emergency section and cried cos I wanted to have all the usual stuff like seeing the head etc

but my midwife was fab and sorted me out on that front

I am pleased I had a VBAC but if I had had to have another section, so be it, it is still a birth.

Please stop squabbling.

x

Spacedust - you have misunderstood sorry! I was refering to the posts earlier in the thread where it was suggested that your were perhaps a more regular MNetter posting under a different name. I thought that this was the case as your style of posting had changed - i.e. your disguise was slipping! No need to worry about anyone trying to hunt you down!

gomez-you are right in saying that about different section experiences. I am saying that I THINK a woman should not have a section just because he had a bad birth experience last time. Each birth experience is different and it depends whether the same problem is likely to occur again of not. One bad experience does not automatically mean another. Too many women I know have chosen to have another section because they weren't sure about their ability to give birth. They wanted to, but were scared. I can understand that, but they did not get enough support when making their choices and the medics here are very much in favour of taking the easiest route for them, skewing the argument for and against and alot of these women have felt deprived afterwards and have doubted their decisions.

'women who have never given birth vaginally have missed out'. Hmm. I respect that Spacedust feels that she would have missed out if she hadn't, but I don't think anyone should judge what others feel based on their own, or others', experiences and feelings. We're all different.
What matters is a) safety/health of baby and mother and then b) mother feeling at peace with herself about the delivery, and supported through it. WHATEVER that means.
IM(humble)O

I disagree. It's actually not easy at all to get an elective c-section. I know because I tried after my first birth experience which was a failed induction with emergency c-section. As it happened i gave birth just fine to my DS1, but I still think I should have been given a c-section, because it would have saved me from 9 months of hell owrrying about the birth. Would have been nice to actually have enjoyed the pregnancy a little! I really don't think you should judge other people because it's not just about the physical aspect of labour and it's not just about support which everyone keeps banging on about either. I also think a lot of post natal depressions are triggered by bad birth experiences.

And that includes, as Spacedust suggests, support for women who are scared of a vaginal delivery because of one bad experience - everyone has a right to be informed, feel supported and safe, etc. But it also includes support for women who decide AFTER having had all the info and support that they don't want to risk it. That has to be ok too - no?

now I'm getting all confused with X posts....

Of course Spacedust I fully agree that some woman have a c-section and don't feel happy with that outcome for them.

Why does you thinking this however lead you to make the statement you did at the start of this thread

"don't care what they say about it not mattering how babies arrive as long as they are ok. IT DOES MATTER of course it does and nayone who says is doesn't is a lier and is trying to kid themselves. I really feel sorry for those women who, whether by choice or not, have never given birth normally"

There is no correlation between the two points of the conversation.

But what if the woman wants a c-section second time around? Perhaps for the reasons Normsnockers listed or perhaps like Uwlia they are unwilling to accept any risk of uterine rupture. Woman who are not being forced or persuaded into a c-section but actually quite want one - having already experienced it already.

because I am fed up with people saying that the outcome is the only thing that matters. How a woman feels about her birth experience does matter. It's crucial to her emtional health and sense of well-being. I was not happy with the angle of "oh it doesn't matter how you do it" .It does matter and women are often neglected post birth because all that is considered important is the outcome. I think that a large factor in whether a woman gets PND is to do with whether a woman feels ok with what happened to her. If she is happy with a section then she is happy. If not then she should be allowed to say it makes her feel bad. People try and make her feel better by saying"it doesn't matter" when it does to her and it makes her feel even more crap for feeling bad when she is supposed to feel happy when she is not

Yes it does matter, but what is it that makes women feel like we do about our births? Let's face it, childbirth is a very competitive business. Women who did it vaginally and wihtout pain relief is by many seen as having performed better, have a high pain threshold etc. Personally that is not important to me. I want as little pain as possible and the whole thing over within 5 minutes so I can concentrate on competitive parenting instead

Perhaps my first thread was aliitle strong. However, I do feel that women who have not experienced A good vaginal birth have missed out. The thing is of course is if you have not been fortunate to have one then you will not know whether you would have felt differently to the way you do. You might well feel totally at peace with your birth experience, I am glad for that, but you will not know how it is to have a good vaginal birth. That point cannot be denied. It's like someone saying kitkats are better than marsbars if they've never had a marsbar.I can only say things based on my own experience and that of talking to other women.

Just wanted to say that my experience has been that the info available from midwives has been abundant and clear regarding all options regarding a ?normal? birth - home births (encouraged), water births available, loads of info on pain relief etc.

However I find it strange that C sections don't even seem to feature on the radar of information - it's as if it's so unlikely and somehow ?nothing to do with you? it's not even worth thinking about. It's certainly not offered as an elective choice but more importantly you are not routinely talked through what happens if you do need one (emergency procedure, form signing, physical implications etc). I always believe that as long as info is given responsibly, it's much better to know what to expect than not - might help people to realise that if you need an emergency section it is not because you have somehow 'failed', it's a common course of events and not something to be unduly scared of and certainly not something to be embarrassed about.

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