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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

Student midwives say Mumsnet posters on the birth forum just peddle horror stories about birth and midwife bashing WTF?

383 replies

Ushy · 08/06/2012 14:20

This is the link and it made me feel really upset.
They have no idea how traumatic birth can affect people. This forum is one of the few places people can share their experiences without being judged.
www.studentmidwife.net/fob/mumsnet-and-the-promotion-of-medicalised-birth-thoughts.69784/
Not at any point do any of them question whether their apporach is wrong. No - it is all WE need 'empowering' 'educating' 'encouraging' to do things their way.

I did it their way once - big mistake and PTSD. Subsequently went for caesarean and epidural.

What scares me to death is that if I ever had another child, then I could fall into the grips of this lot and I just think that is scary.

Anyone else feel the same?

OP posts:
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trafficwarden · 11/06/2012 21:29

I hope I'm one of the midwives who does listen and actually cares for you. I don't belong to any of the forums mentioned and am appalled at the indiscretion of some of the posters - they are putting themselves in a very awkward position if the NMC found out who they are. I also don't condone the general air of scorn some of them have for the women in their "care". That's not to say I have not had uncharitable thoughts on occasion before giving myself a mental slap - I know I'm not the one who is experiencing that particular labour so I can only empathise and offer the best support I can and I really do make that extra effort.
Yes, I believe a non intervention birth is a wonderful thing but am also well aware that my personal opinions are not relevant unless asked for and that every individual woman should have her labour and birth tailored to meet the needs of her and her baby, not the midwife, doctor or system. If that involves an epidural or elective LUSCS then my role is to provide the best available peer reviewed evidence and to happily support the woman when she has made her decision. I am well aware that nature doesn't always make birth a straightforward or pleasant process. I am fortunate to have mostly worked in units where 1:1 care is the norm and I do believe that makes a difference. Listening and responding to the needs of each woman is such a fundamental part of my role that I can't understand why so many midwives don't appear to get it.
I could go on and on but would ask those of you who have been so generous of your time and opinions if you would consider posting on a thread I have posted about Birth Reflections. Hopefully those of us who do make the effort can help the women who have sadly not had that support.

MissRiri · 13/06/2012 16:22

Hello again,
I?ll be honest, I?ve stayed away for a day or two because I did feel like my posts were being read out of context and I felt personally attacked and although I?m not usually one for resurrecting a thread which has run its course I felt I had to return one last time.

Fruitybread, I apologise for upsetting you with what I posted. I admit, my use of strong language was uncalled for. That said, I also feel that your response was inflammatory, particularly with the use of my own words seemingly flung back at me and the use of what came across as a sarcastic tone. In turn, this upset me to the point of me wanting to stay away. In hindsight I can see that I was perhaps being oversensitive. I?m not saying that either of us was right or wrong, but just trying to be clear of why I have not posted further. I hope that you can accept my apology and that we can move on from there.
Over the last few days this thread has really been on my mind, so I do feel that I should post again.
I posted to say that the comment that CS is safest for the baby was misguided. I still believe that CS being safest for baby is a very bold statement to make. Is respiratory distress syndrome also not an injury sustained at birth and in the case of elective CS, caused BY birth? As I went on to say/imply in that post, we can all pull out the statistic that suits our views best, but as I have been pulled up for only giving comment on RDS and ELCS, can I also point out that only the risk of birth injury in vaginal birth was also commented on by another poster. Forgive me for not spouting the NICE guidelines at you all, but I was under the impression that you were aware of them. I was merely pointing out in my post (poorly, by the sounds of it) that neither form of birth is the ?safest? option for mums and babies ? both have risks, and as I?ve tried to point out earlier, it?s down to the individual to choose the risk they?re willing to accept.
I don?t think that by pointing this out and using RDS and ELCS as an example (and only as an example) I?m in any way implying that either route of birth is right or wrong for mum or for baby. Both have benefits and both have risks.

In response to my discussing small studies and then, as you say, ?backtracking? again I was indicating that research is ongoing and does not give us all definite answers, hence why we use them in conjunction with guidelines and the best available research at that time. When you say that I am ?backtracking? I would like to point out that I was, in fact, creating balance in the discussion by saying that yes, there has been this piece of research, but upon deeper examination, it?s not as robust as it appears ? this is something that we are taught to do at university, it?s called academic analysis ? seeing both sides of the coin, which should be done for ALL research, including guidelines published on the back of research, such as the NICE guidelines. I was in fact, showing that I understand that not all research is robust and reliable, and pointing out, as I?ve said before, that it could be seen as a risk that women may or may not be willing to accept.

Also, I never at any point said that CS was associate with mental health issues, and I never said that that research was used ? again, I was promoting an interesting subject for discussion to highlight my point about available research and midwives critically analysing said research to further develop their practice.

Babieseverywhere ? In response to your post saying it?s irresponsible to tell mothers that their risks would be lower with a VB ? I never said or implied that the risks would be lower. I merely pointed out an example as a counter argument to the person who had said that CS is safest for baby. I in no way questioned your Elective CS, and in no way said that you should have chosen to go for VBAC again. As I?ve said in previous posts, that would not be my decision to make, and I don?t honestly think that I?ve passed any kind of judgement on anyone for the kind of birth that they are striving for, nor the reasons behind that decision. Therefore your comment has confused me, as it seems like it has been taken out of context in relation to the rest of my post.

Pestopenguin : The comment about not offering pain relief is just that. As a midwife I do not offer pain relief ? in that, I wouldn?t deem myself as someone with super powers who knows exactly what a woman is feeling and if she wants pain relief. If you noticed, I did try to explain what I meant by this by saying that I give the options for analgesia, then respect the fact that it?s a woman?s choice, and that should she require analgesia, she can ask for it as and when she needs it. I truly feel that by saying to a woman ?you?re not coping, do you want some gas and air/pethidine/epidural? I?m actually pushing my view on the way she?s coping onto her, and undervaluing her knowledge of her own body and mind ? that?s not my job.
It?s a bit like when my sister used to hit me, then say ?shut up, that didn?t hurt? when I cried ? how does she know, she wasn?t feeling what I felt? I?d like to think that I?m open and caring enough that a woman can ask me questions and can request the pain relief that she feels she needs/wants at that time.

Maples: Please see my comment above explaining my comment regarding offering analgesia. Perhaps I was wrong is saying it made me laugh, implying that I was heartless and wouldn?t give pain relief if requested. That is not the case at all. I actually don?t think it?s my place to offer women pain relief, but to facilitate discussion and allow women that choice. What made me laugh was that what I garnered from that comment was that as a midwife I?m supposed to automatically know whether a woman wants me to say she should have some pethidine or whatever or not. If a woman isn?t going to inform me of her wishes, how am I to know?

Angelico:
Please see my above response r.e. the small scale research I commented on. I have to disagree with you in that the rumour of these pieces of research lingering and being found on what you say to be ?certain kinds of midwifery/natural birth websites?. As I?ve said before, it?s these ?crap? pieces of research which allows us to recognise what is good and what is bad research. Again, I never said that I tell women of these studies ? forgive me for thinking that we were having a rational discussion, whereby different opinions and ideas were being discussed. I do think that parts of my posts have been taken out of context with relation to the rest of the paragraph/sentence that I?ve written, which I do find a little upsetting really.
Especially in relation to the fact that it seems ok for some to make sweeping statements, but it?s not ok for others to try to provide counter-balance to these.

As I?ve said before and will continue to say, I don?t sit in judgement of any decision made by a woman regarding their birth options, which is why I feel increasingly frustrated that it still appears that some are assuming that I am so pro-normal birth can I can?t see the benefits of all birth options alongside the risks.
I feel like I?m constantly repeating myself in the fact that I want to be able to work alongside women to make their experiences better, and to get rid of the barriers between us. However, listening and wanting change works both ways. We all have to be receptive to make it work.
Sorry, this is a long post (again). Thanks for taking your time to read.

Toodaloo!
xx

P.S. Quick question: Do you feel that birth outcome in relation to maternal satisfaction would be better if you were cared for within a ?caseload? team, where you would have a small team of known midwives, who would care for you holistically antenatal and postnatally, and care for you during birth, either in hospital, home or birth centre? If the current constraints of NHS pre and postnatal care were removed. If midwives had more time for one to one care in clinics etc?
There are a small amount of these teams of private midwives contracted into the NHS, but they?re a rare occurrence. Do you think that perhaps the scales might be more balanced in the relationship between mums and midwives if care were different, or do you think there are other issues too?

NarkedRaspberry · 13/06/2012 16:49

I'd prefer it if people were offered options. The option for a home birth and the option for a midwife free, doctor led care.

MissRiri · 13/06/2012 17:00

NarkedRaspberry, out of curiosity, when you say doctor-led care, do you mean from day 1 of booking through to postnatal?

And when you say option for home birth, and option for doctor only care, do you wish for there to be something in-between, like hospital care with a midwife or combined care, or just that, homebirth, or doctor-led hospital based care?

MissRiri · 13/06/2012 17:01

Also, do you feel now that you're not given options? Or just not enough options to suit you as an individual?

PestoPenguin · 13/06/2012 17:12

Thanks for coming back MissRiri Smile

I agree with you about offering pain relief. Sadly, the midwives I've experienced at the crucial points in my labours have not all behave like you descibe Sad.

Speaking personally, I want one named midwife antenatally and at birth who I actually see (so not just named on paper) and who will be on call for my birth. Impossible within the NHS where I live Sad. I do not wish to meet new people when I am in labour, ever. A small team would be a second best option, especially as with so few antenatal appointments there is not time to get to know them (my community team is 5 people, and I am 32 weeks now and have had 3 appointments, so met 3 of them so far, yet there has been no time to discuss my birth preferences with any of them yet).

With the exception of my first DC, I have found postnatal 'care' to be basically non-existent, so that part seems largely irrelevant Sad. I do not think women should be expected to leave the house within 14 days of giving birth if they don't wish to, so homevisiting should be re-instated.

NarkedRaspberry · 13/06/2012 17:12

I mean options for women to choose the type of birth they want. Let midwives deal with home births, so that people who want them get the support they need. If people want combined care let them have that. At the moment many people who want a homebirth are discouraged and undersopported. And women giving birth in hospital aren't given enough 1 to one support. I also want elective CS on demand.

For people like me, who don't want anything to do with midwives, it would make sense to allow us to be monitored by our GP and then see only doctors during labour - let midwives deal with the women who want to see them. If I have a another child I will pay to make sure I see only doctors from day 1.

I don't need someone telling me how I should be giving birth and acting like a doctor with less than half the training.

PestoPenguin · 13/06/2012 17:15

Narked -do you realise how rude you sound Confused? I don't think anything MissRiri has said warrants being spoken to in the way you have written. Most doctors, especially GPs, have far less training in matters of birth than midwives.

Ariel24 · 13/06/2012 17:18

Been away so have missed lots of the posts on this thread.

MissRiri nice to read you want to work alongside women and respect their decisions about birth options. I think there are many others like you and have lovely midwife myself. I guess however there are some as in many other professions who are not so great. And for women who are frightened and vulnerable that isnt good.

I have tokophobia, been treated so well by my midwife and fantastic consultant, and I'm booked for an ELCS. I'm worried that whilst in hospital, some of the midwives and hospital staff will not be understanding of me, and reading some of the posts on those threads has terrified me. Yes definitely more one to one care would help, I think so anyway.

One thing I'd like to say on risks etc, surely one thing that has to be best for baby is having a happier mum who isn't traumatised, depressed etc? But I don't like arguments over VB v. CS, I know things can't be perfect but just believe that all women should be treated sympathetically and their choices be respected. After all I thought the NICE guidelines from late last year also gave more advice on supporting women who don't want a c/s, as well as those who do.

StarlightOverJuicy · 13/06/2012 17:23

Well, I woukd rather have MissR attend me than any doctor I could think of and I suffer from PTSD from giving birth in a MLU.

The problem in maternity care has nothing to do with MWs IMO, but the system they work in and the interference of doctors and often arrogant ones at that, who often know less and have less experience of childbirth.

NarkedRaspberry · 13/06/2012 17:24

Consultants have plenty. And I think the sheer arrogance of midwives deserves that attitude and more.

Selectively quoting risk stats and consistently underplaying the risks of VB. Demonising doctors and medical intervention. All to protect their own existence.

StarlightOverJuicy · 13/06/2012 17:27

NR, I have never heard a mw demonise doctors in real life.

My problems with Mws is usually their reluctance to use common sense and listen to a woman without having to run to a doctor due their eroded confidence in their own abilities to cover their arses in a system that puts so much pressure and blame on them.

MissRiri · 13/06/2012 17:31

NarkedRaspberry Ouch! While I do get where you're coming from, in that you want a choice, may I also point out that although I may not have had 6 years in medical school, learning about general medicine, I have had 4 years specifically focused on midwifery, both in theory and in practice. And not only in homebirth and normailty. I'm skilled in caring for women in all manner of situations relating to childbirth to the extent that my training, role as midwife and experience allows. When women come in for elective CS I prep them and take them to theatre, ensure baby's wellbeing and care for the woman in recovery. I can't say I've ever "acted like a doctor" because I'm not one.

Out of curiosity, who do you want to care for you in recovery and postnatally?

Having worked in the NHS for a while now, I do know that currently doctors do not provide care in labour other than to review CTGs and perform assisted or operative deliveries. They also don't care for a woman in recovery following elective CS - so in your view, who would you prefer to do this?

Ariel24 I totally agree with you - I also don't like arguments over VB vs CS as they both have their place, and as you've said, a happy mum is as important for outcomes for the family as a whole than just looking at the statistics on physical outcomes.

Having my own chronic health problems I understand what it's like to live with a condition that others can't see and that some people don't believe exists. In my case I feel that my choices are removed because of said condition, so I know how it feels to be boxed in and then judged on the decision you make while being stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's horrible, which is why I want to see things changed for the better.

PestoPenguin · 13/06/2012 17:34

What sort of consultant? A consultant OB specifically obviously has relevant discipline-specific training. A consultant dermatologist might be less use to you Wink.

CherryBlossom27 · 13/06/2012 17:38

I've only read the original post as this thread is huge!

I think it's a shame that the student midwives think that.

I only have one DC (so far) and I know I was very lucky and had a good labour, but I think knowing I was booked into a midwife led unit for the birth helped me feel calmer than I would have done going into a proper hospital ward. I think I wanted what every first time mum wants, a straightforward labour and as natural as possible with regards to pain relief, and my midwife took the time to read my birth plan when I got to the hospital (9cms dilated!) and reassured me I'd be fine when I told her I felt scared (half petrified at how much worse was the pain going to get and half excited thinking there's not long to go then if I'm 9cm).

My midwife was very calm and respectful and I think having her there helped me to stay calm and concentrate on what needed doing! She was perfect for me and kept back and let me know when to start pushing. She also did a great job with my stitches - two other midwives doing home visits were very impressed Grin

I must admit, I love talking about my labour and found the whole thing amazing and very empowering!

I think even if there had have been complications, my midwife would have been good, she was very professional.

MissRiri · 13/06/2012 17:38

starlightoverjuicy I think you've hit a nail on the head there.

Ariel24 · 13/06/2012 17:43

Thanks for your response MissRiri. Just out of interest, would you mind me asking what i can kind of expect when I go in for my c/s, from midwives etc? I'm not asking in a funny way, just in a I'm very scared and genuinely don't know kind of way! I'm having all my care with my brilliant midwife, the consultant could see how frightened I am and thought it would be best if I had most antenatal care away from hospital. But I am really worried and thinking of requesting another app with him just to go over what will happen, who will look after me when etc.

LaVolcan · 13/06/2012 17:46

How many women booked into a CLU actually get to see a Consultant obstetrician? If you need a doctor you might be lucky and get to see a Registrar; unlucky and it's an inexperienced SHO. Consultant obstetricians, quite rightly, need to focus their attention on women with problems.
And before you say NarkedRaspberry that such women shouldn't choose a CLU - often there is no choice - the MLUs have been closed down.

NarkedRaspberry · 13/06/2012 18:04

But you'd have great pores PP Wink. At the moment going private is the only way to get a consultant.

To me, midwives now are like the (99.9% male) doctors of the 1950s. The attitude is we know best and don't make a fuss. I could put up with that if I knew that they were 100% focused on the welfare of the baby, and that I might suffer but the baby would be fine. That's not how it works though. By dismissing pain/distress as 'being dramatic' they can miss the early signs of a labour going wrong.

MissRiri · 13/06/2012 18:11

NarkedRaspberry
We're not all like that!!!

LaVolcan · 13/06/2012 18:15

That's a bit of a sweeping statement NarkedRaspberry- just because the midwives you had were bad, it doesn't mean they all are. Where do you live? Are you in Central London? From what I read here the maternity services are bad, to be charitable.

In other parts of the country though, there are some great midwives out there, completely 100% + focused on the welfare of the mother and baby.

Frakiosaurus · 13/06/2012 18:22

I think there are pockets of midwives with similar attitudes, and some do have the 'we know best', some have the 'natural birth is always fabulous' approach etc. There's always a risk that professionals in the same area will standardise themselves, which is why small teams or practices would be good.

Whilst I dislike many things about the French medical system I do like that you can choose a midwife to see for your prenatal care. If you want a chance of having a MW you've met care for you when in labour you have to go clinic/hospital based though. Continuity of care is a big issue.

VivaLeBeaver · 13/06/2012 18:32

"I don't need someone telling me how I should be giving birth and acting like a doctor with less than half the training"

Mmmmm, most obs Drs will do what a month/maybe two months of obs and gynae as a student. Which involves a week on labour ward, only one week.

If then then specialise I believe they spend 2 years as an obs and gynae SHO before becoming a Reg. So as a registrar they will have had 2 years and a week of obstetrics training. So most midwives will have had more training in that specalism, though obviously that training is not the same. But its silly to say that a midwife has had less than half the training.

As a senior midwife I train Drs, not just at my hospital but around the country. I teach them how to manage emergencies and also how to do forceps/ventouse deliveries.

Its not that long ago I had a registrar come and ask me to run through shoulder dystocias with her as she wasn't confident. This is a senior Reg who at weekends/nights will be the most senior obstetric Dr in the hospital.

PestoPenguin · 13/06/2012 21:22

That's really interesting Viva. Do you mind me asking, was the doctor asking about shoulder dystocia during an assisted birth, or during a spontaneous vaginal delivery (or both!). I just can't imagine this conversation in my head for some reason Blush, though I absolutely don't doubt it took place Smile. How reassuring as an expectant mum to hear of this sort of sharing of practice (and apologies if that sounds odd!).

One of my bugbears is that doctors seem so frequently exposed to the abnormal and situations where all is going pear-shaped, that I wonder how their perceptions of risk and attitudes to more normal situations are shaped by that? How many straightforward spontaneous hands-off vaginal deliveries does an obstetrician see in their career? How many water births? If they are not exposed to these things then I wonder if it must be hard to maintain confidence that women's bodies can do what is needed in many situations, and not to reach for drugs, monitors, stirrups and other tools as a first resort if that is not the sort of birth the woman wants.

PestoPenguin · 13/06/2012 21:29

Oh and NarkedRaspberry, of the roughly 10 midwives who have so far cared for me in my various labours, only one had the attitude of 'don't make a fuss' and dismissing my distress. Ironically, what I wanted was not the pain relief that many on this thread would choose for themselves, but simply to phone my husband and get him in to support me. I was not 'allowed' because it was too soon, it 'would get much worse than this ' and 'your mother did it for you and hers for her'. As I've already mentioned, later on she incorrectly recorded that I'd requested pain relief. The only other person in any of my labours who dismissed distress was a doctor, I think a registrar, who told me off for making a fuss (too much noise during contractions) when after 4 attempts she still hadn't got a cannula in my hand, having tried both Hmm. I don't think I reacted politely to that one...