'the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'

[RevoltingPeasant]

I was talking to a friend about ttc and wanting a homebirth recently (whooooole other thread there) but in the midst of trying to dissuade me, she said, 'Birth isn't an experience, it's a process, and really the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'.

Okay - I'd agree with the first bit. I don't expect to go into it and have a Magical Experience Which Will Last A Lifetime. I think it'll hurt and large part of it will be boring and literally shit.

But - it occurred to me that the second bit is something I have heard lots of people say when discussing birth, inc HCPs. And tbh, it really gives me a chill. There are two people involved in birth and the mother counts as well. I do think the mother has the right to think about herself too when negotiating interventions, choices etc. AIBU to think this attitude is really horrid and totally devalues women?

Or is that just because I don't have DC yet?

I'm probably not the most objective person to answer this but having my dd2 die shortly after birth (crash section) I would honestly go through any type of birth with any number of interventions if it meant a baby that was alive at the end.

That said I do understand your point and yes in the case of a normal, straightforward birth in an ideal world the woman should have choices but never, ever at the risk of the health of the baby.

I think your friend is applying the analogy in a slightly screwy way. It's meant to be used when, for example, you're discussing whether you hope to have a boy or a girl.

I think though, ultimately, most women will put themselves through the most extreme intervention in order for their baby to arrive safely, so there is a truth to what your friend says. It doesn't sound to me like she's actually saying that the mother doesn't matter anyway.

She's probably just trying to say that, in her opinion, a hospital birth is safer.

A bad birth can be very damaging, there's no doubt of that, but I'm persoanlly of the opinion that giving birth is very very painful and I would alwayds want to be where there is lots of pain relief and an Operating theatre if necessary.

I wonder how people giving birth for the first time can be so sure of how they want it to be, and be realistic about it.

(realises she hasn't actually said YANBU or YABU....)

To think that the attitude is horrid and devalues women? Yes, I do think YABU. Whether or not your perspective would change when you have DCs, I don't know.

Whatever - I am so so sorry.

Also I Xposted with you Whatever. My post was about the trauma of a difficult birth, not relating to your experience

I said something similar in one of my ante-natal classes, we were discussing what we wanted after/during the birth. What I meant was that was my main goal and why I was going through the pregnancy etc. The rest of the group didn't really get what I meant as I explained it badly.

V. unfortunately one couple lost their baby at 3 days.

So yes I think your friend is right.

The mother's wishes do matter but not at the expense of the baby's. I ended up with a forceps birth which I wouldn't have chosen and I have seen a few posters put that they would ask to proceed to c section rather than try forceps but I couldn't live with the guilt if something bad happened to the baby, which was already distressed due to very long pushing stage, while they were getting anaesthetic and theatre ready for a section, for me the most traumatic outcome for myself, forceps done there and then in the delivery suite with no epidural just gas and air, resulted in a perfectly healthy baby but it's important to find that balance so that the mother doesn't feel like she doesn't matter so YANBU.

YANBU. You matter just as much as the baby.

It is said because a lot of people have had not healthy babies as the poster above explains. A lot of people think it won't happen to them but it does happen.

The more I think about it the more I think the health of the baby is paramount. I really do.

Barring whatevertheweather's terrible experience - so sad and tragic :( - I agree with you OP. The health of the mother is just as important. You need to be able to care for your baby once it's born. Birth is a process, but it's a process that needs to leave you in a healthy position to care for your baby. Now that can mean everything from using appropriate pain relief so you are not exhausted and shocked after a 36 hour back to back labour, all the way up to allowing mothers to choose their preferred method of delivery to facilitate better birth experiences.

I'm not quite sure what your friend means when she says birth isn't an experience. Does she mean the mother's wellbeing is not really important?

YANBU - but - I don't think people mean to devalue anyone when they say so. It's a phrase that's often used without thinking of the meaning.

For instance, I've heard many people answer "It doesn't matter so long as the baby is healthy" when asked if they want a boy or a girl. I don't like this comment, because not every baby is born healthy and I like to think I would love my child even if they were ill or disabled. However, I'm sure the parents-to-be who say it are not really implying that they will only love a healthy baby.

Yes, please do think of surviving birth and without injury, or as little injury as possible - your health is important. My DP pointed out that he would rather I survived even with a risk to the baby - to him there's no point in both mother and baby suffering risk and injury or worse.

Before you ttc, if you ever do, get a Welfare Power of Attorney in place in favour of your birth partner. Point this out to the hospital including when you are in the delivery room. It changes how much they consult with you and your birth partner, and prevents them making decisions for you if you end up with a GA.

My friend was so traumatised from her forceps delivery she couldn't touch her ds for weeks. She had been begging for a cs for hours.

But I'm not sure this is a vb vs cs argument is it OP, was your friend talking about pain management? Or was she talking about mothers being free to choose the manner in which they deliver their baby?

So sorry whatever. How awful.x
There are two people involved in a birth, but I think it's important to remember that this is not your birth, but your baby's. You've had your birth, and you came onto the world safely.

Having a healthy baby isn't the only thing that matters, but it IS the most important thing. I say this as someone who has had two Ok births, one utterly horrific one and one beautiful, gentle one (all in hospital).

I didn't have a birth plan, my only hope was that my baby was alive and well.

I really didn't think about myself, of it would of came down to either save mine or the babies life it would of been the babies life

I was going to say what Whatever said.

Having experienced a stillbirth, IMO the only think that matters is having a live baby and a live mother.

Thank you. It was only 6 months ago so I am well aware my comments on this will cone from a different view to most. I dare say my answer would have been very different after the very happy, intervention free birth of dd1.

It really is a tricky balance I think especially for hcp's of when to give a woman a choice and when to say enough is enough we have to get this baby out. Sadly having been through what we did I have come into contact with others who have lost their babies. Very tragically in some cases the hesitation to go to c-section/heavy intervention has cost babies their lives.

headfairy, that's exactly what I thought. I got the impression that the OP's friend wasn't implying that the mother's health was less important than the health of the baby, rather that a preference for style of birth (etc) was less important than the health of the baby.

If that is the case, the OP's friend is absolutely right, but like I said, I think it's come across is a screwy way.

is in

My DS2 and DS3 have SN and were both poorly as babies. I hate it when people go on about how all that matters is that the baby is healthy, as if a baby like mine wouldn't be good enough for them. After 2 miscarriages, I would be ecstatic if I have another baby who survives. It's also not a helpful comment to someone who has experienced birth trauma. It's like going up to someone who has a broken leg and saying that the important thing is that they don't have cancer.

So sorry for your loss of your DD whatevertheweather

YANBU - it is possible to meet the needs of both the mother and the baby she is birthing.

Of course every parent wants a healthy baby but the mother is not just a vessal to be ignored to achieve it. It's quite possible to treat the mum as a human being and support her.

I am not talking about putting the baby at risk but about seeing the mother as an integral patrt of achieving the outcome of a healthy baby.

Whatever I am so sorry for your experience and I really hope this thread hasn't brought up bad feelings for you. in sympathy

OJ you know, I wonder about that. I think it is actually a really interesting ethical question. I really hope this doesn't callous discussing this in an abstract way after whatever's experience BUT do you really think that having a baby then means that they are absolutely paramount? For example, if a dr said to you 'We can save you or your baby?'

Totally cool if the answer is yes, just wondering.

Also, I wonder if it's okay for a mother to think 'I'll go through anything to save my baby' and different for, say, a consultant to think 'We can put you through anything to save your baby' - iyswim.

YANBU