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Childbirth

Share experiences and get support around labour, birth and recovery.

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'the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'

246 replies

RevoltingPeasant · 20/02/2012 18:12

I was talking to a friend about ttc and wanting a homebirth recently (whooooole other thread there) but in the midst of trying to dissuade me, she said, 'Birth isn't an experience, it's a process, and really the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'.

Okay - I'd agree with the first bit. I don't expect to go into it and have a Magical Experience Which Will Last A Lifetime. I think it'll hurt and large part of it will be boring and literally shit.

But - it occurred to me that the second bit is something I have heard lots of people say when discussing birth, inc HCPs. And tbh, it really gives me a chill. There are two people involved in birth and the mother counts as well. I do think the mother has the right to think about herself too when negotiating interventions, choices etc. AIBU to think this attitude is really horrid and totally devalues women?

Or is that just because I don't have DC yet?

OP posts:
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Flisspaps · 06/03/2012 20:38

If you don't want VEs or continuous fetal monitoring even though hospital policy dictates they would be important, I have NO issue with that.. but I would like to see a situation in which women who wanted to go against hospital protocol in these situations contributed to their care in some way

That's the line I am referring to.

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 06/03/2012 20:42

LaVolcan,

"No, indeed not, and some hard choices have to be made. I saw my mother crippled with arthritis for a number of years before her name got to the top of the waiting list for a hip operation, so I do know the reality. I agree we need a proper debate about this. At the moment we have the authorities making ?easy? short term cuts ? a local hospital closed here, a children?s centre there, without consideration of the long term effects or anyone taking an overview."

This is my fear. I am not an NHS manager, but I do see the need for management of something as complex as the NHS and I also see that the PR war being waged by the government seems to suggest that if you just "cut out" management and admin, all will be well. The complexities of NHS management sort of baffle me. I work in a small department - no hospital affiliations, community-based, non-urgent care only - and even timetabling rooms is a nightmare. The logistics are extreme. When it comes to keeping, say, 5000 women and their babies a year safe in birth, I can imagine it is much, much more complex. Yet from my own small department I know that keeping abreast of the evidence and ensuring high quality care while keeping legally defensible documentation, attending mandatory training, adapting and innovating practices across departments where individual practitioners have different CPD levels, enthusiasm, personalities etc, dealing with issues arising from increased health needs and translation services for individuals who can't speak English is just HUGE.

The NHS seems to me to be an unsolvable problem, because there is plenty research to say that there are some excellent practices and outcomes in many areas yet everyone seems to think it is rubbish and failing and over-managed etc and something to which they are entitled.

I know we pay taxes, I know that there is a contribution made.. but having lived in a country where I had to pay for healthcare and where that was a substantial part of my annual income ON TOP OF my taxes AND health insurance I paid for privately and STILL I waited three, four hours for appointment times and for 2-3 years on waiting lists, I just think so many people take SO much for granted and expect the sun, the moon and the stars.

Of course, in reality, I think all women and their births and their babies should be prioritised. The trouble is, I also think all elderly immobile people should have access to podiatry every week because it completely buggers their lives up if they become immobile. I believe waiting lists for hip replacements should be kept low. I believe adults with learning difficulties should have access to communication aids and adults who've had strokes should have access to communication therapy. I believe there are many, many areas of the NHS that are highly, highly worthy of our best attention and resources. So it's a bind. I wish I could contribute more to my maternity care. I can't believe what an excellent service it is and how much I have probably cost since I became pregnant again. I have not encountered this evil belligerence designed to keep women down that I have read about.

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 06/03/2012 20:46

Yeah, sure. That's what my argument is. I want the Big Bad Men in the hospital with their Senseless Protocols to profit from defiling your fanjo because the only reason they have suggested CFM or VEs is purely to ensure that you have a crappy birth in the least amount of time possible.

dishwasherfromhell · 06/03/2012 20:47

I agree Flisspaps. We aren't supposed to question or have control over our own bodies as thats selfish and we should just be grateful for the care we are given because there are cost restraints.

The words that jumps out here is

DIGNITY AND RESPECT

And the fact they are not compatible with cost constraints in the NHS and this is actually ok.

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 06/03/2012 20:51

Yup, got it in ONE dishwasherfromhell! You are SO right! Why discuss the fact that there are cost constraints in the NHS at all? They are clearly just made up so that women can be abused and disrespected by people who sit around rubbing their hands with glee as they write protocols purely designed to ensure the maximum discomfort of women. There's just NO consideration given at all to evidence or patient experience EVER. Really, most hospitals just want you to have the most barbaric treatment their evil little minds can contrive.

Flisspaps · 06/03/2012 20:58

Onebirthplaneveryminute But what does the VE tell them? How quickly you're dilating according to the Friedman's graph (I think that's what it's called) which actually, was devised because a dilation rate of 1cm/ph was the most efficient way to process women through a maternity unit. Not because it gave women or their babies better outcomes (better outcomes costing the NHS less money) but because if you dilate 'too slowly' then they can speed things up with syntometrine (costing the NHS money) which then increases the likelihood of further intervention...which costs the NHS more money.

Money which you say the NHS doesn't have.

I just don't for the life of me understand why I should pay extra - lets not forget the NHS isn't a free service - to not have a particular examination that I don't want, or that isn't going to provide me or my baby with a better outcome at the end. Particularly an examination (or rather, examinations, there's usually time for more than one) that can be not only uncomfortable, but sometimes fucking painful, humiliating and degrading even during the process of birth, where your body is trying to get something out and yet is having something working against it trying to get in.

Or monitoring which means that you can't have an active birth...which once again means that you're more likely to have intervention which costs the NHS more money...

But hey, I suppose you're right. We should put up and shut up about our own preferences and we should just be grateful that these protocols exist and go along with whatever we're told like good little girls, unless we have the money available to spend to pay for independent care.

dishwasherfromhell · 06/03/2012 21:09

And we'll forget that mental health is important too. Nope. We are selfish. We should stop being so demanding.

I would like to point you towards the dignity care campaign (something thats being pushed for care of the elderly right now, because of recent reports of how the NHS is utterly failing on this).

www.dignityincare.org.uk/DignityCareCampaign/

The Ten Points of The Dignity Challenge

  1. have a zero tolerance of all forms of abuse.
  2. support people with the same respect you would want for yourself or a member of your family.
  3. treat each person as an individual by offering a personalised service.
  4. enable people to maintain the maximum possible level of independence, choice and control.
  5. listen and support people to express their needs and wants.
  6. respect people's right to privacy.
  7. ensure people feel able to complain without fear of retribution.
  8. engage with family members and carers as care partners.
  9. assist people to maintain confidence and a positive self-esteem.
  10. act to alleviate people's loneliness and isolation.

SO MUCH OF THIS COSTS NOTHING.

In fact happy patients equal healthier patients. They get better quicker! Its been proven in several studies!

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 06/03/2012 21:11

Yeah. That's what I've been saying. Absolutely. I said you should be "fined" for questioning protocols and should pay extra for your preferences

I guess it's just them old midwives lying to me. They told me that they needed to check dilation to ensure I wasn't pushing against the rim as I might injure my cervix, but hell, apparently they were just lying because they wanted me out of there faster. Good to know. Cheers.

I suppose the reason that a midwife sat with me for two hours to help me write a birth plan because I suffer from anxiety and OCD was also - what? - just to somehow get me to have an EMCS when the time comes? Do I get pregnancy support sessions from a specialist midwife because the NHS desperately wants to ensure I have as shit a time of it as possible? I suppose when the supervisor of midwives explained that continuous fetal monitoring was, oh, something to do with the health of the baby that she was just trying to lure me in to her evil web of pain? Those free active birth classes - all just a veneer. The ipod docks, the birthing pools, the birthing balls, the pregnancy pilates session... all just there to hide the fact that really the system can't wait to suck me in, chew me up and spit me out, preferably using some heavy duty weaponry along the way.

Actually, what I've been TRYING to say - but unsurprisingly, given the vast conspiracy theory that seems to abound, haven't been heard saying - is if people really are serious about quality maternity care, they should consider contributing extra voluntarily where they can instead of focusing solely on how to get the best outcome for themselves by bandying around guidelines and bleating and crowing about how every single decision in the NHS is made solely to keep some imaginary purse string holder happy with no reference whatsoever to safety or patient experience. Ever.

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 06/03/2012 21:14
  1. have a zero tolerance of all forms of abuse.
2. support people with the same respect you would want for yourself or a member of your family. 3. treat each person as an individual by offering a personalised service. 4. enable people to maintain the maximum possible level of independence, choice and control. 5. listen and support people to express their needs and wants. 6. respect people's right to privacy. 7. ensure people feel able to complain without fear of retribution. 8. engage with family members and carers as care partners. 9. assist people to maintain confidence and a positive self-esteem. 10. act to alleviate people's loneliness and isolation.

Where have I said that abuse is okay? That negligent care is acceptable? That women shouldn't complain if they have had medically substandard treatment?

I've simply said that people should be thinking about how to contribute financially to maternity services where they can and that perhaps a little less crowing about how the NHS is out to get every woman that darkens the door of a CLU might be nice. Oh, the horror!

Flisspaps · 06/03/2012 21:19

If people really are serious about quality maternity care, they should consider contributing extra voluntarily where they can instead of focusing solely on how to get the best outcome for themselves by bandying around guidelines and bleating and crowing about how every single decision in the NHS is made solely to keep some imaginary purse string holder happy with no reference whatsoever to safety or patient experience.

But from what I have experienced, most of those who can afford to contribute extra voluntarily go private.

Those of us who can't afford to go private or put extra into the NHS pot but want a safe experience (and why should we not all focus on getting the best outcome for ourselves where we can, surely that's what anyone would do?! When I write my birth plan I'm not interested in what's best for Mrs X down the road or the NHS system) have no option but to 'bandy around guidelines' or feel as though we have to fight the system to get the care that we and our babies are entitled to.

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 06/03/2012 21:36

I think a lot of people THINK they can't afford to contribute because they are used to not paying for their service at the point of delivery. Believe me, if you lived in a country where you paid 50-70 quid out for every GP visit and paid £3K for birthing your baby ON TOP OF your taxes yet had to wait 4, 5 adn 6 hours for every appointment in the hospital, had no access to midwife-led care, no homebirth potential and no waterbirth options, you might realise just how "free" NHS care is and how much quality is available publically.

Again, if people are being subjected to indignity, harassment, belligerence or neglect, shout about it. If you are being subjected to a protocol that is seriously against your best interests, I've no issue with you suing if you need to or shouting about it from the rooftops. However, I don't think that is anything like standard NHS care and I think a lot of women have very positive experiences, or at least experiences that are fine in the grand scheme of things. I also don't believe that the reason things like CFM etc are suggested is for any other reason than that the NHS believes that it is the safest way of avoiding ill-effects that might result in litigation.

I actually do give a shit about what's best for Mrs X down the road and the NHS system because I see the NHS as being "ours" and not "mine". I don't think that I am entitled to a specific type of care against protocol in a high risk situation, I believe that is a choice and that if I make that choice, I need to pay a bit extra for it. If I thought that I was being asked to do something actively unsafe for no reason, I would challenge that.. but I don't think that people are routinely asked to do things in the NHS that have no evidentiary basis. In fact, I'm pretty damned sure they aren't.

LaVolcan · 07/03/2012 00:03

but I don't think that people are routinely asked to do things in the NHS that have no evidentiary basis. In fact, I'm pretty damned sure they aren't.

Unfortunately I think you are mistaken there. Evidence shows that one to one care from a known midwife is safer, so why isn't that available to everyone? The majority of women are attended by people they have never met before many of them having to share a midwife between two or three others. Where is the evidence to say that's a good model of care?

Evidence shows that CFM is no more effective that regular intermittent monitoring with sonicaid/pinard, so why is it so widely used?

Induction at 40 +10/12/14 for being 'overdue'? The facts that the dates can vary so much between hospitals doesn't suggest that the policy is evidence based.

I care about Mrs X down the road, but only so that she gets the best treatment for her and her baby - not because Mrs X did something and therefore I must do the same.

Believe me, if you lived in a country where you paid 50-70 quid out for every GP visit and paid £3K for birthing your baby ON TOP OF your taxes yet had to wait 4, 5 adn 6 hours for every appointment in the hospital, had no access to midwife-led care, no homebirth potential and no waterbirth options, you might realise just how "free" NHS care is and how much quality is available publically.

So just because the service isn't good elsewhere that means we shouldn't try to improve our own services? Some NHS care is extremely good - we should be doing more to find out which these services are and to see that they are emulated throughout - so much of our healthcare is a postcode lottery at present.

I don't think that I am entitled to a specific type of care against protocol in a high risk situation,
The majority of pregnant women are not in a high risk situation yet their care is delivered on the basis of protocol. Hospital protocols are guidelines and are partly there to make the running of the hospital smoother. As was said somewhere - they are a good servant but a bad master.

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 07/03/2012 08:21

Unfortunately I think you are mistaken there. Evidence shows that one to one care from a known midwife is safer, so why isn't that available to everyone? The majority of women are attended by people they have never met before many of them having to share a midwife between two or three others. Where is the evidence to say that's a good model of care?

Yes, but that's confusing the best evidence available with evidence that something is acceptable in terms of risk. The NHS basically calculates risk levels in line with resources/budget available and gives the least possible care that is most likely to secure an okay outcome. That's the harsh reality. What happens in research, on the contrary, and on committees looking at best practices etc is that the evidence is looked at objectively and on its own merit and guidelines are drawn up with limited reference to cost. CFM is more efficient because it uses up less manpower. That's why. I know people see this as EVIL because no one seems to want to realise that actually budgets ARE important.

In my area of clinical practice, I can say right now that even the highest risk clients who are most in danger of long term negative outcomes without proper care get the least amount possible. They get a lot more than low risk clients, but they get the least amount possible. This is not because any of us working with our clients want to work against guidelines or deny best available evidence, it is very much a case of the loaves and fishes.

However, there is always some evidence to suggest that what's being done (as opposed to the overall quality of the care model) is "okay". Generally speaking clinicians and their managers spend a great deal of time reflecting and analysing how things could improve, what could be changed, thinking of ways in which to multiply the loaves and the fishes, suggesting x hasn't worked as well as hoped so maybe y should be tried to improve it. However, the gap between theory and practice can be gapingly wide at times... and the answer, though the media and the government's PR machine dress it up beautifully as "inefficiency" is that high-quality healthcare in the 21st century costs a LOT. As for "yes, but, if they invested here x would happen.." thinking, that's sort of naive. The court cases will still still happen, there will still be negligent care from idiot practitioners or well-meaning ones who make a mistake at a crucial moment. Women and babies will die, whether or not care is absolutely top notch. People with mental health difficulties will still commit suicide. Adults with Learning Difficulties with still find it hard to get work.

What the NHS doesn't do is create protocols that are completely and utterly devoid of reason. Yes, there will be an element of making things run smoothly and providing efficient service but this really IS because there's not a lot of option. If you are going to provide a cut-price service to the masses (and that is what the NHS is, make no mistake) there have to be "efficiencies" and sometimes these seriously compromise patient care. However, it is NOT a conspiracy or (generally) wilful.

So just because the service isn't good elsewhere that means we shouldn't try to improve our own services? Some NHS care is extremely good - we should be doing more to find out which these services are and to see that they are emulated throughout - so much of our healthcare is a postcode lottery at present.

No, of course we should be trying to improve. But the sooner people realise that the NHS is not an easily fixable problem and that often, though not always, the reason some care is better than other is that certain areas will prioritise some services over others (robbing Peter to pay Paul) the better placed they will be to make suggestions about improvements. Even within departments, this happens. Sometimes these decisions are really tough. What do you do if you are faced with closing a cardiac care unit for children or the MLU? Who "deserves" it more? Why does anyone think there are simple answers to these questions? What I often see is lot of hysterics about how the mean money makers are out to get us all, that protocols are just there for the sake of it as if the money were a non-issue etc.

The average member of the public believes they should have better and better services - and more of them - for the same money, more or less. That every gap in service is because of some fault in the system that could easily be ironed out if... if.. if... In reality, it IS about the money. No one wants a system like the US, no one wants it to be about profiteering or for rich people only BUT by the end of next year, my small service of 55 will be reduced to 35-40, with a lot of specialist staff going who will not be replaced. Anyone who genuinely believes that the NHS is not in a serious situation right now and that quality of care is about to be HEAVILY compromised is really, really deluding themselves. We need to start asking what can WE do as well as what are WE owed if we want to save a service for all.

shagmundfreud · 07/03/2012 08:29

"We need to start asking what can WE do as well as what are WE owed if we want to save a service for all."

And clearly what you think we should all as individuals be doing is putting our hands into our pockets, regardless of ability to pay, rather than asking the government to look at the taxation system to find equitable ways to raise money to increase overall funding for the NHS.

Are you actually Andrew Landsley? Grin

Onebirthplaneveryminute · 07/03/2012 08:39

Whatever, shagmund.

You want a better service for the same money, fine. If you think that's going to happen in the current climate, good luck to you. The government's agenda is to set the system up to fail, blame all of us working in the NHS for each and every failing, and then bring in the fat cat corporatins. This is and always is Tory policy in relation to health, dressed up in many other guises. If you think that's what I'm suggesting, fair enough. If you think Andrew Lansley would admit in a million years that what happens in the NHS isn't best practice because the system is underfunded and poorly resourced, you must be listening to a different man talking.

I simply say I see the writing on the wall. People say they care about the NHS - just as long as they don't have to contribute anything extra, and they can moan about the injustice of what is done to them. No one wants to do anything proactive or community-based to address some of the underlying issues because that's the government's job. Well yeah, quite, but if you trust any government to admit the reality, you have a lot more faith than I do.

shagmundfreud · 07/03/2012 09:15

"You want a better service for the same money, fine."

No - I didn't say that.

We need more midwives and that will cost more money.

But in the medium and long term it will save money by reducing medical accidents and reducing the emergency c/s rate.

And in the mean time I want the hospitals with the poorest outcomes to look to the hospitals which provide good care, particularly those which have reduced their emergency c/s rates without impacting on perinatal outcomes, and to ask 'what is it that they're doing that we could emulate?'.

"No one wants to do anything proactive or community-based to address some of the underlying issues because that's the government's job."

Speak for yourself. I'm off to a maternity services liaison committee this week - unpaid volunteer - to talk to doctors, mothers and midwives about what we can do ON OUR PATCH, to improve maternity services for women locally.

And I urge everyone else on this board who thinks this is an important issue to get involved if they can.

Smile
LaVolcan · 07/03/2012 09:55

I take your point onebirthplan (answering your post of 8:21)- I think we are essentially in agreement - health services cost money, resources are finite, how best to allocate them; the vast majority of NHS staff are committed to their work and want to do their best.

I have to take issue with some points though CFM is more efficient because it uses up less manpower. That's why. I know people see this as EVIL because no one seems to want to realise that actually budgets ARE important.

This model of care looks more efficient because you can cut staffing and staff budgets are a big overhead. As I said before, I strongly believe that this is a false economy. A rising EMCS rate is one consequence of that model of 'care'. Not only is this the least safe birth but is also much more expensive, and recent research e.g. the Place of Birth study bears this out. One thing we can't afford to fund is our rocketing CS rate.

What the NHS doesn't do is create protocols that are completely and utterly devoid of reason.

No, but the reasons for them are not always communicated well, they are not always applied or they are applied blindly. The lack of communication is one consequence of a lack of staff - those that are there are too overworked to do the job properly and everyone suffers.

What do you do if you are faced with closing a cardiac care unit for children or the MLU? Who "deserves" it more?

Some years back I was involved in a campaign to save the local maternity unit. This was exactly the argument used then. "We will have more money to pay for elderly care", they said. When the accounts were published a couple of years later, we found that no money had been saved by this closure, so no more money for either maternity care or the elderly - a lose, lose situation if ever there was.

The average member of the public believes they should have better and better services - and more of them - for the same money, more or less.

Yes, I think you are right here. The cheapest option for maternity care would be for low risk women to have a home birth, or one in a freestanding MLU - both still cheaper despite the additional midwifery costs. When (I think it was shagmund) who questioned whether people would accept being told that they couldn't have a hospital birth, couldn't have an epidural, they weren't happy about this. It would need a big campaign to convince people that this was a safe affordable option.

I like you am angry and sad about the way the health service is going ? the current government is, it seems, hell-bent on privatising, when what we need is a proper debate about how best to provide health care for all. As much as anything we need the vision that the early pioneers of the health service had.

shagmundfreud · 07/03/2012 10:02

"CFM is more efficient because it uses up less manpower."

No - using it leads to higher rates of emergency c/s in low risk mothers without improving neonatal outcomes.

Which results in increased use of obstetric services, which are very, very expensive.

If you come back OnePlan - can you address the central tenet of your argument, which is that 'one size fits all' maternity care is cheaper than providing individualised care.

Where is your evidence that herding all women into big, understaffed CLU's and subjecting all of them to the same treatment protocols is actually cheaper than providing one to one care in a range of settings?

EdlessAllenPoe · 07/03/2012 19:31

"You want a better service for the same money, fine."

I want a better service for less money. that's what more MLu and home birth for low risk women would mean.

PosiePumblechook · 07/03/2012 19:37

I think a bereaved mother is a far worse outcome than one with a lesser birth experience, whilst I think a woman should have choices the safety of her baby will usually be at the top of her list. She may insist upon baby to breast straight away but I cannot abide those that put their own wants above the advice of medics.

So YABU the most important thing is a healthy baby, anything else is a bonus. However a woman must still be respected and treated as a patient, so not being left in bed for hours, not being left in blood soaked sheets etc.

Flisspaps · 07/03/2012 19:41

Posie I think you'll be hard pushed to find many people who don't agree that the most important thing is a healthy baby, but the OP (not that anyone's answering the poor OP any more) was questioning if the ONLY thing that matters is a healthy baby.

PosiePumblechook · 07/03/2012 19:42

Well then I guess I should read more carefully!! Wink

WidowWadman · 07/03/2012 19:44

"You want a better service for the same money, fine."

I want a better service for less money. that's what more MLu and home birth for low risk women would mean.

Edless Are you suggesting closing down CLUs or how is that maths going to work?

EdlessAllenPoe · 07/03/2012 19:56

do you understand what the word 'more' means WW?

WidowWadman · 07/03/2012 20:09

Yes, I understand what the word "more" means. You want more MLUs. The only way to get a cost saving is, if something else closes instead of the MLUs. That'd be the CLUs I guess. Or how is the "less money" part going to work?

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