'the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'

[RevoltingPeasant]

I was talking to a friend about ttc and wanting a homebirth recently (whooooole other thread there) but in the midst of trying to dissuade me, she said, 'Birth isn't an experience, it's a process, and really the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'.

Okay - I'd agree with the first bit. I don't expect to go into it and have a Magical Experience Which Will Last A Lifetime. I think it'll hurt and large part of it will be boring and literally shit.

But - it occurred to me that the second bit is something I have heard lots of people say when discussing birth, inc HCPs. And tbh, it really gives me a chill. There are two people involved in birth and the mother counts as well. I do think the mother has the right to think about herself too when negotiating interventions, choices etc. AIBU to think this attitude is really horrid and totally devalues women?

Or is that just because I don't have DC yet?

My baby was born at 24 weeks, emergency caeserean, 1lb 11oz, in SCBU for 6 months and upon discharge from hospital weighed just over 4lb. As a result he had hole in the lung, lung disease, bilateral retinal detachment of prematurity, grade 4 (total blindness), bleeds on the brain, severe autism, still in nappies 13 years later.

A healthy baby is all that matters, sometime ye get no choices.

I'm too scared to have another.

I think it is both an experience and a process to be honest. We had a very rocky road getting pregnant and staying pregnant with dd1 ( 3 miscarriages and a blood clotting diagnosis) that for me birth really was a process. I went into it with no expectations other to hopefully come out of out with a healthy baby to take home.

That doesn't mean that I didn't have an interest in the experience or have an input into how it went cause I most certainly did. I told them upfront and early on that I would not consent to forceps so if it looked like they were going to be needed they should consider CS early. But I wasn't expecting the birth to be about me really.

I have meet a lot of Mum's though since having DD who seemed to regard their birth experience as some kind of right of passage that if it didn't go the way they think it should have then they are some how less as a mother, which is frankly bonkers.

the birth of your child will be a cherished memory whether your birth was in a birthing pool surrounded by whale music our in a theatre with a spinal and an emergency CS.

It is the destination that matters, not how you get there.

headfairy wrt to the 'experience' point, I think she was warning me not to expect an organic wooo style Experience if you see what I mean. Like, it won't be fun, just get through it.

Which is totally sensible. But I do think it bleeds imperceptibly into the attitude of 'Well it will make an 0.4% [or whatever] chance of a better outcome for your baby, so do it'.

I do under stand your friend.

With my first dc I wanted a water birth but could only have one at a midwife unit 10 miles from the nearest main hospital. However I had to be induced in the end so had to go to the main hospital.

If I had not been there, my dd would not be here. I delivered her head ok but couldn't get her out. it turned out she was back to back and had shoulder dystochia. They managed to get her out with forceps, ventouse and a weird manoeuvre, but she needed help breathing, and I was left in a mess. God knows what it would have been like with just a Midwife... I ended up with consultants, paeds etc ...

I had an elective section second time round ....

To be honest I can't understand anyone wanting a home birth with their first

Having experienced a very traumatic and damaging birth (for me) that resulted in a beautiful healthy baby, and a very pleasant and yet still damaging birth (for me) that resulted in another healthy baby, I thank God for that....but to say that the only thing that counts is a healthy baby completely disregards the woman - who is not just a baby incubator but is entitled to good mental and physical health every bit as much as her baby. How she chooses to achieve that is entirely up to her and even if some people's views - not here on this thread I hasten to add - essentially mean the loss of women's autonomy over their own bodies. And that is a very scary thing. I would guess that very few babies are damaged because their mothers insist on reckless birth choices.

lynnlynn can I ask why you preferred EMCS to forceps - at risk of derailing - just curious?

how very odd attitude she has then (wrt her definition of an experience)

Experiences don't all have to be good. Many of them are down right painful (physically and emotionally) but they're all part of life's building blocks. They're rites of passages aren't they? Kind of like breaking up with your first love. It hurts, but it makes you who you are.

I digress....

provinicial that's the crux of the question for me - you are saying the health of the mother counts as much as the baby's - I think some people think it doesn't. Not judging mums who put their DC health first, of course!! - just think it is interesting how attitudes differ.

YABU. And YANBU at all.

Legally, the unborn child has NO rights which is why, if a woman can demonstrate that she has capacity to make the decision she can refuse a CS for instance, even if it is obvious that the fetus will die due to this decision. I have witnessed this happening with judges and all sorts of Important People having been involved.
I don't agree with this - didn't then and still don't now. Quite frankly, I judged and I reserve the right to judge again in a similar situation. I freely admit I wanted to slap some sense into her .

Having said that, I am also pro-choice, your body, your choice and all that jazz. And yes, of course labour/delivery/birth is far more than just a 'process'. But it is also by a very, very large margin not the most important part of becoming a mother, so I feel a bit about people who get too hung up about their choice of music/aromatherapy oils/surroundings. Again, I am not against music/aromatherapy etc etc, but I'd rather that kind of thing went out of the window if the life/health of child OR mother are at risk.

I get the same impression about people's focus on 'the Birth Experience' vs 'Being a Parent' as I get about 'the Wedding' vs 'the Marriage'. Take the long view, folks.
FWIW, I have had 4 v different birth experiences, from v medicalised induction via emCS of prem baby to VBACs and they were all 'good' births (I know which one my favorite was, but that's beside the point here ).

So yes, bottom line, the baby's health is more important than mum's preferences IMO

Of course, understanding how many of the interventions that happen in hospital actually cause problems in the birth process means that many women choose to homebirth as a safer option for them AND their baby.

The way that hospitals can interfere with the hormonal processes even when everything is "going ok" - just by having strangers coming in and out or the lights being too high for instance - means that for many, a homebirth would make the birthing process much easier, leading to a reduction in the risks to both baby and mother.

I totally agree, OP, that having a healthy baby is NOT the only thing that matters. I also agree with the posters that I'm sure if your friend really defined what she meant, she wouldn't have meant this. It's just one of those phrases.

I strongly believe that women need to birth their babies where they feel the most comfortable whether this is at home, in a birthing centre, in hospital or on the hard shoulder of the motorway if that's what is right for them. This way the birth process is MOST LIKELY to go well (it's never 100% no matter where you are).

Hope all goes well with you, OP, and enjoy your birth wherever it is :)

"Of course every parent wants a healthy baby but the mother is not just a vessal to be ignored to achieve it. It's quite possible to treat the mum as a human being and support her."

Well said.

If I had to make a choice between my life and the baby's, I can't say for sure what I would choose, but I think leaving two little girls motherless because an unborn baby was more important than I was would be a questionable choice.

No need for apologies RevoltingPeasant totally my choice to click on the thread. It just struck me as I'm now 11 weeks pregnant again and someone said to me recently 'i'm really praying for you that this one is healthy' and I just thought 'i'm really praying this one is alive'

Sorry I totally disagree. After 7 years of shite(IVF and fertility treatment) I literally only cared about a healthy baby. My birth plan consisted of the absolute safest birth for the baby which was an e/c.I discussed things with my dp and he totally understood(having been through said shite with me)even with the the very slight increase in possibility of raising twins alone.

After my twins I was offered a VBAC for dd.I rem the nurse trying to push me into it inferring I needed to experience natural childbirth for me,whilst brushing aside the risks so soon after a previous section. Thank god dd was breech.

Personally I don't know any mother in RL who wouldn't/hasn't put themselves second regarding choices.I think op you may feel differently when you have a baby kicking inside you.

To the op and Whatever I'm sorry for your loss too.

When things go wrong, the only thing that matters to most Mothers is a healthy baby, as long as they are ok too. Many women have other children to think of so would prioritise themselves over the baby.

When everything goes well and there's a healthy mother and a healthy baby, then giving birth can be a wonderful and magical experience.

But I think giving birth is very much like parenthood in general - nothing can make you feel happier, more proud, more protective than having children. But equally, nothing can make you feel more sad, more desperate, or more emotional.

I suppose your thread title is v radical; a healthy baby is quite clearly is NOT the only thing that matters. A healthy baby with a dead mum is just as bad.

An elCS has demonstratable advantages as being safer for mum and baby than midcavity forceps. I'd chose CS over that too.

YANBU

Having had ptsd following the birth of my son which despite treatment will remain with me for the rest of my life, the health of the baby is not more important that the mental or physical health of the mother.
There is a big difference between not getting the magical experience that you hoped for and having a healthy baby compared to being so traumatised by your experience that you don't love your child because your head is so full of trauma/flashbacks/panic attacks but still having a healthy baby.

But MrsHeffley, they can still treat you as a human being as well as a woman in labour.
I think as a midwife the health of the baby or even babies is paramount but treating the mother as a human being is vital too.
IMHO if you forget the mother you can affect her parenting and feelings - her baby is vital but so is she too.

great post Pacific I agree with you wrt to women refusing cs even if it results in the death of the baby. That's just shocking that anyone can come to that decision.

You're so right about women getting very hung up on minute details like which aromatherapy oils to use or which whale music to play when they're having their first baby. I think it's because it's the last time you'll have any control. From that point onwards it's all completely unknown.

I remember being at a party when I was pg with dc1 and prattling on and on about this and that on my birth plan (I'm so sorry if it was you I was boring... I was sober, everyone else was drunk - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it :o) and one woman leaned over and very drunkenly said "don't worry about the birth honey, it's the rest of your life you want to worry about" :o

Revolting, I was and remain utterly terrified of forceps/ventouse after my cousin had them and ended up doubly incontinent. I spoke to one of my midwives who said that they usually get a bit of notice if they think forceps etc will be needed so usually would have enough time to go to theatre for CS if needed.

Whatever really, really good luck with this one And these are the I screwed up before!!!!

MrsH as I've said before, I think it's fine for a mum to make that decision herself. I suppose the wider question is, how okay is it for other people - e.g., her MW, her MIL, the registrar, her friends - also have that view and to judge/ act accordingly?

One reason I am thinking of HB is cause I have read far too many birth injury horror stories. It's all very well saying 'you come second' but I think that's a big ask. Of course you are right that I might eat my words!

Ultimately yes as long as you have a healthy baby that is all that matters.
Yes its great to have a birth plan BUT be willing for it to change if the need arises, having a very rigid plan can end up with you feeling v upset when things dont go to plan and all that really matters is that you and your baby come home healthy & happy.

headfairy yes this is really just distraction!!

PacificD and lynn thanks for that. I didn't know that! I'll remember it as I don't have that much fear of ventouse but find forceps icky. Ta

Are you pg revoltingpeasant? Was this conversation you had with your friend in the context of your choice for a homebirth?

If it was, then I think people fail to see that a more relaxed birth for the mother will quite often be the best thing for the baby too (I speak as someone who's had two highly medicalised cs deliveries)

I would not to be attended by a midwife who thought the baby's health was "paramount" and that treating me as a human was secondary to that.

Terrifying.

I'll be having another ELCS, so hopefully I won't come across a doctor or anaesthetist with those values.

When I am the patient, I am paramount.