'the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'

[RevoltingPeasant]

I was talking to a friend about ttc and wanting a homebirth recently (whooooole other thread there) but in the midst of trying to dissuade me, she said, 'Birth isn't an experience, it's a process, and really the only thing that matters is a healthy baby'.

Okay - I'd agree with the first bit. I don't expect to go into it and have a Magical Experience Which Will Last A Lifetime. I think it'll hurt and large part of it will be boring and literally shit.

But - it occurred to me that the second bit is something I have heard lots of people say when discussing birth, inc HCPs. And tbh, it really gives me a chill. There are two people involved in birth and the mother counts as well. I do think the mother has the right to think about herself too when negotiating interventions, choices etc. AIBU to think this attitude is really horrid and totally devalues women?

Or is that just because I don't have DC yet?

I do think some NCT classes can create a sense that a mother has a 'choice'. Yes there are many ways a delivery can go and we need to hear about them all and knowledge is great but I felt the classes created a hierachy of what was a desirable birth and what wasnt.

I felt at my classes everyone mentally switched off after the more holistic options as if 'yes, that will do for me' whereas understanding and learning to accept that medical options could be very important would have gives balance. We didn't ask questions about the medical bits as if that was wimping out, or being negative.

It would also help people after births who then spend ages wondering if they could have done it differently. I think the ops friend had good intentions and its important to hear all views rather than only the ones we like to hear (myself included in that)

"They'll send out two midwives to help you deliver the baby"

I wanted a hb for this very reason as I didn't get a midwife in hospital for more than about 30 minutes of my whole labour (normal baby, not the ill one) but during my pregnancy 2 women I knew gave birth without either midwife getting there. The suspended hb in my area after that and I don't know if they have started them up again.

I think other poster have got to the nub of it. When people say 'healthy baby', its a polite way of saying 'live baby'. The friends comments were really saying mothers desires don't matter wrt the life of the child, not mothers health doesn't matter wrt the health of the child.

I agree with cervix re the perception of risk at home or in hospital.

For my first I would have never, ever in a million years considered a HB and frankly thought anybody who did was a bit mad naive re the potential risks.
Yes, I am a dr, and yes, my view of childbirth was very much that of a medical model.

Now that I am older and wiser (and have found MN ), I would quite happily have a HB and maybe evern would have had one if the thought of a home VBAC had not sent DH for the men with the white coats to have me straightjacketed (he is a surgeon. They do stuff. They do NOT stand around and wait for Nature to do her thing... ).

The ideal birth is the one were everybody is happy with the outcome in the end and of course the woman choices will influence that.

Re control: I think that is what makes the thought of labour and deliver so scary to some, the thought of NOT having control. And of course we don't have total control - until I had the 'urge to push' (what a misnomer: a bloody imperative to push) I had honestly never understood why a baby would ever be born in the back of a taxi or down the loo or wherever: could the woman not just have kept her legs crossed or summat?! .
It posively helped me to accept that I would be out of control and mooing like Daisy the coo helped too . I was in labour land, and I was not going to come up for air until I Was Done.

Doesn't matter how you describe it Live mother Live baby is the aim, anything else is a bonus. Childbirth is very very risky there are very many things that can go wrong on both sides.

I was incredibly well informed due to my profession, but a wiggly baby had other ideas and we both could have died.

I think its a question of balance. You need to weigh up the risks to both mother and baby.

A traumatic and difficult birth can leave a mother with long term physical and mental health problems and that does seem to be something that is neglected. Which is quite wrong. If you can do things to minimise both you should try. A good birth experience is not something that should be neglected if at all possible, but it seems acceptable to do this, under the guise of "all that matters is a healthy baby". That is NOT acceptable.

Having a homebirth does have benefits. It also has risks. But so does a hospital birth. And the risks involved in a home birth are often, unfairly, misrepresented. It seems your friend is anti-homebirth, hence her comment.

It is not selfish to consider a homebirth. (Though it IS selfish to have one at all costs). Its especially true if it is your second baby. A recent study that looked at place of birth in low risk women was extensive and showed that if its your second baby the risks between hospital and home were in fact the same. In fact it was more risky for the mother to give birth in hospital as she was more likely to have medical intervention. Thats something that is concerning.

Its slightly different for a first baby. It is higher risk for your baby. But only slightly. But this is a risk a lot of people might find unacceptable. Midwife led units came out best though - better than hospital units. Which is ironic given most people's mindset about hospital being safest and best.

So if you are low risk being in hospital according to the report is not the best option by any means. There is a lot to say that a more relaxed atmosphere that a woman feels less stressed in, aids the birth process and gives better outcomes. So experience is highly relevant from this point of view.

If you are higher risk, then a homebirth might not be such a good idea. This is where I really think balance comes into it. The thing is to make an informed and educated decision based on your individual circumstances. Don't be put off by friends, its your decision and its not up to them to judge as its down to your individual priorities and risk factors.

Hi there
We are going to move this thread to childbirth
Thanks M Towers

calamityLane she was really traumatised by it. She's been treated for PTSD now and has a good relationship with her ds, but it's taken 4 years.

I think there's a distinction between "The most important thing is the health of the baby" and "The only thing that matters is the health of the baby".

If you turned up at hospital to have a baby and the doctor said "Right, Mrs X, we are going to amputate both your legs and paint your arse green, and then deliver a healthy baby" would you say "No problem, doctor, after all the only thing that matters is a healthy baby" or "Umm... hang on a moment, can you explain how the leg amputation and arse painting contribute to the health of my baby?" Because if they didn't if they were just a matter of hospital policy or outdated habit and didn't actually help the baby then it would be quite sensible to object to them because, of course, the health of the baby isn't the only thing that matters. And while your hospital is obviously pretty unlikely to actually want to amputate your legs or whip out a can of silk emulsion the same principle applies to any number of other things that can and will be offered or suggested, up to and including home vs. hospital birth.

AFAIK the figures still show that a home birth is just as safe as a hospital birth for a normal low-risk pregnancy. Yes, behind those figures there will be real heartbreaking stories of babies who have died or been left severely disabled after a home birth who would (probably) have been fine in hospital, but equally there will be real heartbreaking stories of babies who have died or been left severely disabled after a hospital birth who would (probably) have been fine if the birth had been planned for home. I can think of a couple of those just from people I know. The plural of anecdote is not data; the data (I believe, haven't checked for a few years) show that home birth is just as safe.

I agree with lisad, I hate the expression 'all that matters is a healthy baby.'
When the consultant told me he had some bad news during a scan at 22 weeks, I looked at DH and realised that whatever was wrong with our baby we would cope. I would rather have a child with any sort of illness or disability than no child. Every baby is of equal value, 'healthy' or not.
With regards to the birth 'experience' everyone feels differently. The midwive looked at me as if I was a heretic when they asked for my birth plan and I explained I didn't have one.
I knew intervention would not take place unless necessary and with my consent. My only wish was for a live baby and a live mother at the end.

the problem is though is you have no idea beforehand of how your birth is going to go.

dd's chances would not have been fantastic if i had had a homebirth. she was born early with a diaphragmatic hernia. i had had all the scans and checks and it had been missed. she was unable to breathe at birth and had surgery at 48hrs old. there was no way of knowing that she would be born needing to be ventilated the second the cord was cut.

i absolutely would have preferred a homebirth, both with her and ds1 and ds2, but just could not take that risk.

i was so traumatised by dd's birth that i needed counselling.

When I was being rushed to theatre I told DH to save the baby rather than me but the staff save the mother rather than baby if not both. A healthy baby is not the only thing that matters but it is important. .

Hmm well I had a horrific time having dd now aged nearly 9... I was induced at 37 weeks with complications, had 3 days agonising back to back labour, failed epidural and ventouse delivery followed by ptsd and severe pnd. I found it very irritating when everyone kept saying "well your babys healthy!" - yes and I was grateful for that but it didn't erase the 67 hours of horrible labour I had and the subsequent problems I had bonding! ... I'm currently preg with number 2 and I am having an elective c section this time.

it all depends on the context it is said in IMO

if in your case, the friend means dont get hung up on the details...home birth V hospital birth etc then she is right. however if she meant forget how you feel and only think of the baby then maybe not or at least not in a normal, no intervention birth. you do have to go through the pain etc so having the birth plan in place can help you prepare for what could be a long process and it is an experience too so it is nice to try and go for a pleasant one.

it doesnt always go to plan as some posters have said

in my case, i say it referring to the pregnancy illnesses/stretch marks/back pain/bloating/pissing my knickers etc after having 8 MCs and TTC for 4.5 years for my second all i want is a baby out of this god awful experience...THAT is all that matters to me...

headfairy that is incredibly sad, but good that they do have a happy relationship now. Did she have good care after the birth?

I think that midwives and hv etc underestimate the damage that a traumatic birth / PND can have on a woman, which is scary because they can be so damaging to both the mother and baby.

I planned for a HB but had to go into hosp after 7 hours. It ended up being really positive actually but despite that PND kicked in at about 4 months and was really severe. I suppose that given my personal experience, a mothers MH is The thing that springs to my mind in this sort of discussion, but I appreciate that this will be different for different women.

Everyone seems to get hung up on the 'where' of birth, but so few people give much thought to the 'who.'

I planned more or less exactly the same birth with both of mine, the single biggest difference between my 2 births, which were both planned to be in hospital, both with as little intervention as possible, was the fact that during the first birth I had been attended to by dozens of different HCPs by the time I actually gave birth days later by emCS, whereas second time only a small handful of people were involved. 5 different MWs attended me in labour first time, intermittently at best, and none of them had met me before they came on shift. Second time only 2 MWs were involved, and one of them knew me well from the many times she had visited me at home during pregnancy.

I fully believe that the 'one woman, one midwife' approach is a much bigger issue than the one of where to give birth. Many women would not be quite so concerned about the location of birth if they felt they were being attended throughout by a person they know and trust.

I agree with what some others have said. For me, a healthy baby is not the only thing that matters. It is the most important thing, but it is not the only thing.

If you go down the route of saying it is the only thing then, for example, it doesn't matter if a registrar inflicts terrible pelvic floor damage with aggressive use of forceps, as long as the baby is ok. Of course that matters. Of course it matters if a traumatic birth leaves a mother finding it hard to bond with her baby. Of course it matters if a woman having a section is not properly numb.

I think the 'only thing' line actually does women a big disservice. It stops people kicking up more of a fuss about poor care, because of course only the baby matters.

calamity I don't think she did and I think she's still suffering a bit from PND. She's dealt with the issues surrounding her ds's birth, she's had another baby since, but there are other issues I don't think she's dealt with at all and I'm not sure how to help her :( but that's a whole other thread.

I had a birth I found pretty traumatic (and had long, slow and protracted recovery from - think ragged bits) and I don't want to repeat in June.

Like all women, I would love a birth I felt was very relaxed and lovely. I will certainly plan for this, doing lots of pregnancy yoga and a bit of hypnobirthing and trying to be really positive about it all.

However, I do feel that in my first labour it was "all about me" as I had no real concept of my baby, and that now I know I would pretty much do or put up with anything to have a healthy baby.

'I didn't think anyone would choose their own life over their baby's.'

Seriously? My greatest fear in childbirth would be dying. My second greatest fear would be my baby dying.

Whatever am so sorry and can't imagine how that mist feel though I know someone whose baby died shortly after birth. I was lucky enough to have a healthy baby 10 months ago - the birth was of course very painful as most are but I can't actually remember the pain just the happiness that DD was here and OK. Really wouldn't care how traumatic the birth as long as my baby was OK.

must feel

headfairy :(

haven't read whole thread.
but after a fairly traumatic run up to a premature emergency c-section, when i was very ill and the prematurity meaning that dd had a difficult start, i understand what your friend means. it wasn't the birth experience i wanted, and i am unlikely to ever have that, but i have a beautiful healthy dd and i am alive to enjoy her. i am pregnant again (and very closely monitored) but the doctors/midwives can basically do whatever they need to in order to keep us both safe - haven't told them quite so frankly yet though

i think it is a bit unreasonable to think that the phrase is horrid and demeaning, as i think people don't think that deeply when they say that. the mother is important too, and her health (mentally and physically) is important.

i do think though, that the potential difficulties and problems, and therefore solutions, are not discussed sufficiently enough and women do have a romanticised view of childbirth. then, when their 'perfect experience' does not happen for whatever reason, they really struggle to come to terms with it, which is sad, but if both they and their baby are healthy and well, they need to move on. great if you can have the birth you want, but it isn't always that straight forward for safety's sake, and i think that is where education is lacking. i do agree with poster who said that it is a process, with the goal of healthy mum and baby at the end.

OP- I understand your viewpoint but I agree that the most mportant thing is a healthy baby. After having a crash section and almsot losing DS, it has made me realise this even more.
Of course the mother should have a say but labour is very unpredictable. The mother should be open enough not to refuse intervention where necessary. I think that medical professionals have more experience and do what they think is best.

*excuse spelling errors, I was typing in a hurry