Anyone else prepared to admit that they didn't b/f just because they didn't want to ??

[IllegallyBrunette]

Just wondered really.

I have 3 dc and didn't breast feed any. I was 19 when I had dd1 and was asked by a midwife if i'd be breastfeeding and I said no. There was no argument or discussion, that was that.

When I had dd2 at 34 weeks she had to be tube fed. I offered to express milk for her but was told i needn't bother.

With ds, again I didn't want to but even if I had it would have been hard as he was supposed to be on phototherapy 24/7 for a week.

I think the attitude towards ff mums on this forum by some bf mums is disgusting. I would never dream of saying anything against any mum for feeding her baby by whichever way she chooses, yet some of the comments on here like 'formula should only be available if there is a proven medical need' are just awful.

LOL @ lemon....I know what you mean!!

It seems to me tiktok you understand a lot when you want to but seem 'confused' when you want to also.
I was refering to your comment about mothers milk. I was not saying that formula should be given or not given in these circumstances I was merely pointing out that following my comment two other posters disagreed about whther a mother should or should not continue to feed thier child. I then went onto say, after your comment about 'not needing to know what is in BM' about a woman BF with healthy lifestyle as aposed to a woman feeding with unhealthy lifestyle will produce two conpletely different outcomes. And I am sure there is research to back this up...I didn't make the link to formula...you did.

Oh yes - I vaguely remember that from Brighton Rock but haven't read it since school. Funny you assumed it was you though.

Anyway some of my best friends are control freaks. It's only annoying on MN because we are focusing on one subject so have no idea what the other people are really like. Anyway - I think you give great advice and info most of the time. Also stand by what I said whenever that was about ffeeders getting flack as well as breast feeders - in the real world too.

It is great that combustiblemon was able to continue and enjoy breastfeeding. Tiktok I was not saying that everyone who isn't 100% positive about breastfeeding 'can't function..'. That simply applies to me and I suspect there may be at least one other person out there who understands.

I assumed it was me, NJB, not because I recognised 'control freak' but because I recognised 'bf guru' and 'helps a lot of people' Both terms have been used about me (not by me) on mumsnet. I thought it was a good bet it was me....and I was right

OYM - I never get deliberately confused, honest! I was genuinely at sea. I now understand you and stand by what I said - to say a bf woman with a healthy lifestyle will produce a 'completely different outcome [in her baby]' from the one who bf with an unhealthy lifestyle is not only an assumption, but total bollocks.

But as you are so sure there is research to back this up, I wait for your clarification.

Note: I am not talking about someone who uses heroin all the time she breastfeeds. We'll just stick to your term 'unhealthy lifestyle' , OK?

Rockinsocks - totally agree with your post - just what I think but put much more eloquently.

abear - ok, so don't talk in generalities then, if you only mean your own experience

Well at least you have good self esteem!

Not in her baby tiktok in her MILK! And what I meant by 'unhealthy lifestyle' was one of drink/drugs blah blah blah, not just simply eating unhealthy (sorry that was me not being clear). I am no expert but I cannot see how these things could not impact on the quality of a mothers milk? I may be wrong.

OYM - oh in the milk - sorry. Outcomes is usually shorthand for health outcomes, but my mistake.

Unhealthy lifestyle = impact on milk....in some cases, yes, indeed, esp with drug abuse.

That was all.....

Maria - I have definitely been in that situation you described where a mum who ff is explaing why they gave up and telling you that 'they're practically the same anyway'. I always feel that I have to be kind and supportive because she clearly feels guilty but at the same time I know it isn't the same at all! How on earth are you supposed to tactfully say this? I think the fact that things like this are often not corrected in RL is what feeds the misinformation and really doesn't do bf any favours. I can understand that it may be hurtful to read that ff is not as good as bf and have all the facts and figures thrown at you but I think that leaving people to believe that they are pretty much the same is doing more harm than good in our bottle-feeding society.
I have certainly been at the end of bf flack in RL - so much so that I left the mother and toddler group I was in when DS was 9 months because I was the only one bf and I got weird looks and whispers any time I fed him. Thankfully found LLL after that and felt more 'normal' again! I've had so many comments like 'is he still breastfeeding?', 'when are you going to give him a bottle' etc and friends who switched to formula at 4-6 months saying it was 'pointless' to keep feeding after that time - all this seriously undermines bf and yet I feel like I'm the one who has to keep quiet because ff is seen as the 'norm'.

I think that a lot of women don't understand fully about BM and formula and Im sure that many women would change in a instant if they knew all the facts about it(and some would still not...thier choice), but thats where the midwives/HV/doctors all let women down, by misinforming them and not supporting them in a difficult time. I for one knew BM would be the best thing for me and my baby but when it came to it, it wasn't. I was too ill to feed myself let alone a baby and feeding my baby formula was my only choice.

bubbleymummy, it is very sad that you are made to feel 'abnormal', for want of a better word, for breastfeeding your child.

From my point of view as a ff mother I also felt 'abnormal' and that bf was the norm. I sensed that other mothers from my NCT group were sympathetic to my difficulties and wanted to be supportive but the whole issue is so thorny whichever side you fall that I think they kept quiet as the lesser of two evils.

I would have loved to bf and have certainly never said that ff is 'just as good' but I suspect that people who do say this sometimes are saying it more in the sense of 'my baby is being nourished and is healthy and happy' rather than that they have fallen for all the hype about special additives in formula milk etc.

Motherhood is fraught with guilt for a million different reasons and scenarios and arguing the toss about formula or breast feeding when it is a personal choice is rather unproductive and a complete minefield.

I felt so furtive when I first bought formula for my daughter and was waiting for someone to comment or turn their nose up. It is sad that whichever way we feed our babies someone feels that it is OK to judge us. Next time round I hope to bf but if I have trouble again I will express for as long as possible and then feed my child formula and not give myself a hard time for it.

Wow, as one who FF from 10 days (see earlier posts for reasons), I was in a serious minority. All my friends BF, at least til 6 months and most up to a year. I did used to feel utterly ashamed for giving him bottles while they were there BF merrily. I always looked on in envy and so, so wish that I could have done it for longer. I don't think (I really hope) I've ever made anyone think they were weird for BF.

However my sister was in the minority for BF her DD. I think it really varies geographically and culturally. She said that she felt lots of pressure to give up earlier than she did (5 months due to return to work and 12 hour shifts in hospital)

I desperately want to BF when this new little one arrives, tho I still feel really anxious about it as it was, by far, the most traumatic thing I've ever been through (sounds over the top, but true). I would hope that I wouldn't be judged if it was all to raw and painful for me to contemplate at the time, if I decided to FF.

Oneyummymummies - I wonder if your fixation on the impact of diet on breastfeeding might have anything to do with you being exposed to loads of formula marketing material. It's just one of their sneaky ways of undermining bf - most of their marketing materials contain references to the importance of a good diet while breastfeeding. Actually I'm sure they put it on their tins of formula. They make far more mention of diet while bf than most bf promotion materials do - of course without any sort of detailed explanation or refence to the evidence on this topic. I think the idea is that women see the phrase 'It is important that you eat a healthy diet in preparation for breastfeeding and during breastfeeding' and think that if they don't eat a balanced diet (as many women in the UK don't), that their milk will be a poor quality, or they won't make enough for their baby.

On the Cow and Gate website there's a fair bit of poor quality, non-evidence based information on diet and breastfeeding. According to C&G "it?s best to avoid alcohol when you are breastfeeding" and that curry and onions can cause problems with breastfed babies. I'd really love to know on what evidence they base their advice, because as far as I know there isn't any definative, good quality evidence on this.

Sorry, cross-posted with fizzpops. I looks like we had a very similar experience x

fizzpops well said...

titty I don't have a fixation I mentioned earlier in the thread about mothers taking drugs and such having an influence on a mothers milk. Since then I have been trying to defend expain myself, as some people seem to have misinterpreted what I said. I was not talking about eating the wrong foods, and the only reason this convo has carried on is because people have not understood my initial post.

As I have also said I am very much for BF, and hope to be able to BF next time, and am not trying to find reasons for formula, just pointing out that which ever way you look at it formula is needed. But agree that many people are mis-informed with poor information.

I'm sure im repeating myself!

I think the difficulty is knowing in when to correct someone at the risk of them misleading someone else and when to keep quiet to keep the peace/not offend etc. Obviously the easy option in real life is just to keep quiet but what if that mum then goes on to tell a mummy who is struggling with bf at 4 months that it is 'pointless' to continue - not with malicious intent but because she genuinely believes this - then the misinformation is just spreading. I honestly can't see a tactful/diplomatic way of doing it - so any tips would be greatly appreciated!

Maybe just slip in the conversation about reading on the internet about breastfed babies being ..........and go with the info, maybe you could 'pretent' that this info is new to you, so as if this mother REALLy didn't know the pro's/con's she wouldn't feel as embarrased/ crap for not knowing this before stopping the breast feeding! It is hard, and I can understand that BF mothers feel just as 'embarrased' (again not sure if that is appropriate word) as FF mothers when they feel they are being judged! And it is a big deal if these women go on to tell other mothers that 'its just the same' etc...

I started a thread a while ago about drug taking and bf - I was at a hen do and was surprised that two of the women there were taking loads of coke and then going home to get on with breastfeeding. Their main motivation to bf seemed to be weight loss and getting figures back. There was a bit discussion as yo might imagine - you could find it if you could be bothered with the archives. They don't do it every day (the coke) but once might be enough to harm their babies. And these are educated women generally - just not about the exact risks of their 'recreational' drug taking and bf. They think because they are not full on junkies it's fine - no worse than a glass of chardonnay.

Hi tittybangbang -

I don't think you are wrong or weird at all for trying to put yourself in your baby's position and work out what s/he would like. Sorry if I gave that impression.

What I mean (though I think I phrased it badly) is that there are a lot of things that babies would prefer, I suppose, that modern mothers don't (always) do:

e.g.

• wear baby in a sling all day/carry baby all day
• bedshare with baby
• remain primary carer, in 24/7 contact for at least the first 3 years of life

and, of course

• breastfeed

Like you, I believe that 'babies were born to breastfeed': as you've mentioned, their entire facial physiognomy is structured to receive the boob; it's about many things - touch, smell, comfort, etc. etc.

Now, I [smug emoticon... ] do wear my baby; bedshare with my baby; and breastfeed my baby. I do all this because I hope that it's what my baby wants, and therefore that it will help to make her contented. So far, so good.

Sadly, I need to return to work when she's 15 months, so won't be fulfilling her wants in that respect.

But - and here's the rub - just because I do these things doesn't make me a better mother; nor does the fact that someone else doesn't make them a worse one. And it's not the case that my baby is happier than other babies. DYSWIM? I've made some assumptions about what baby wants, based on limited research that I did, and applied it to my own model of parenting. I say assumptions because sadly babies can't talk to us...

Now, I see plenty of very happy babies being pushed about in prams by mums who've never 'worn' their babies. So, clearly it can't be the case that wearing your baby is the only way to happiness.

I've also seen babies who cry all the time, regardless of whether their mums wear them or not, or bf them or not, etc.

I know that bf-ing is - in many ways - more significant than babywearing. But what I'm trying to say - in an awful rambling way - is that babies probably find lots of ways to be happy, most especially by feeling loved by mum. And that can come in all sorts of packages.

Sorry - thought of more..

I said 'unworkable' unoriginally...

I guess I was also think that there are loads of things we do that babies wouldn't choose for themselves too - e.g. immunisations. Ouch. Or be left crying while mum has a shower; or eats lunch, or whatever. Sometimes people have to do things which their babies patently don't like. That's life.

So, my unworkable remark was based on the fact that

a) all we do is based - to a large extent - on cultural assumptions anyway
b) we often have to do stuff they don't like anyway

God. My brain is not functioning very well today. If anyone can make any sense out of anything I've written, then I congratulate you!