Anyone else prepared to admit that they didn't b/f just because they didn't want to ??

[IllegallyBrunette]

Just wondered really.

I have 3 dc and didn't breast feed any. I was 19 when I had dd1 and was asked by a midwife if i'd be breastfeeding and I said no. There was no argument or discussion, that was that.

When I had dd2 at 34 weeks she had to be tube fed. I offered to express milk for her but was told i needn't bother.

With ds, again I didn't want to but even if I had it would have been hard as he was supposed to be on phototherapy 24/7 for a week.

I think the attitude towards ff mums on this forum by some bf mums is disgusting. I would never dream of saying anything against any mum for feeding her baby by whichever way she chooses, yet some of the comments on here like 'formula should only be available if there is a proven medical need' are just awful.

I haven't read the whole thread (because it's bloody massive!).

However, I FF DS after 10 days as I had a horrendous experience BF (DS's jaw was pushed out of alignment by forceps in birth - went undiagnosed for 3 weeks despite not latching onto anything, including a bottle. I couldn't watch him puking and shitting my blood any longer and my breast pads were worse than my sanitary pads - enough said).

I completely agree that the attitude to FF on Mumsnet is far worse than ANYTHING I experienced in RL. I am often left in tears after reading some Nazi's comments about FF. Two of my friends had similar experiences to me BF first two DC and actively chose not to BF their other children. I wholeheartedly support them in this.

I think that, had a persisted in BF longer than I did it would have had a hugely detrimental effect on the bond I had with DS. It took me a full year to stop flinching every time I held him close during feeding (even with a bottle) and I still get anxious if I'm forced to think about my experience.

Surely this would have had far greater damage to the bond I had with my DS than the FF I gave him?

P.S. My DS is obscenely healthily - far healthier than my sister's DD who was BF for a year and seems to be permanently ill, which, of course, is nothing to do with the BF and just sheer bad bloody luck...

I don't think anyone here is criticising a mother who tries to breastfeed and fails. In these cases, it really isn't the woman's 'choice' to formula feed - she feels that she has no alternative. Her 'choice' has been taken away from her because lets face it - if she could choose to bf without the problems she is encountering then that's what she would be doing! I think there is universal agreement that there needs to be more support and information available for successful bf. The original post was in reference to women who choose not to bf because they don't want to - this is a completely different thing. Many of us are just curious about why someone wouldn't want to even TRY breastfeeding if they know that it is the best thing for their baby. I think some people don't actually know that it is best/thinnk formula is just as good but I think there are others who just perceive it as weird/disgusting/too much hassle - but in a bottle feeding culture that's what many people have grown up to believe and I think it will be a long time before bf is seen as the 'norm'.

I've noticed a theme running through the posts where people are arguing about the proven effects of breastfeeding as if it's an all or nothing thing. The evidence for the benefits of breastmilk is irrefutable. But as some people are saying, it is just wrong to speak of formula feeding as if it's a guarantee of de-benefits. Look at this statistic:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/395305.stm

"The study, published in the British Medical Journal, found that 4.5% of bottle-fed babies were obese by the time they reached five or six-years-old.

But only 2.8% of babies given only breast milk after birth were obese when they reached school age."

That's nearly 2% more. But the overwhelming percentage of children fed by both methods were not obese by the time they were five. Your ff baby is more likely NOT to be obese than to be obese. I think it's easy to be terrified and depressed by all of these studies (I have been, I had the same problem as 3nc and there was no time when my nipples weren't gushing blood) and of course they are very important indeed because we all want the best for our babies. But a statistic of 4.5% - with a minimum comparable statistic for bf babies of 2.8%, not 0! - means that there are a myriad of other influences that are just as/more important. Yes, we should all try to breastfeed, and my god there really is a need for better support, but we should stop hating ourselves when it isn't possible. These are small percentages, they are not certainties.

EB, from the same study:

"After breast feeding for three to five months, the likelihood of obesity was only half that of a bottle-fed child.

And less than one per cent of those breast fed for more than a year became obese."

The WHO recommends that bm is the main source of nutrition for the first year of a baby's life and bf should continue alongside complementary foods for up to 2 years or beyond. If everyone followed this recommendation then, according the above study, less than 1 percent of children would be obese by school age.

Well, my point was that people shouldn't beat themselves up over a figure that is still relatively small and still overwhelmingly on their side.

Nobody needs to beat themselves up about statistics. Research does not predict at an individual level what will happen to individuals - most kids are not obese at schoolage entry no matter how they were fed as babies, quite right!

But at a public health level, these differences are costly, very clear and reversible.

Why would we not want to prevent British kids being obese when they start school - when we know the misery, ill health and restrictions that go with obesity? This is one of the health reasons why at last some government attention and money is being given to breastfeeding support - it's costly to us as a society not to do what we can to address this problem.

No one needs to feel 'got at' as a mother because of it.

And bottle feeding support groups, someone asks? No one needs to be enabled or empowered to bottle feed. The vast majority of British babies are formula fed at some stage (and it's correct that 1 in 4 UK babies are never put to the breast at all). Just about toddler group and mothers group in the country is a de facto bottle feeding support group, if by that we mean a group where the majority of babies are bottle fed.

RSB but we are not in a third world country....you are judging women who live in THIS country and decide to FF thier children. Women who FF thier children are not responsible for FF being avaliable in these countries.

My DD is fine and has (touch wood) not had any serious illnesses, my nephew on the other hand who has been BF suffers from colds, chest infections etc.. and hes had chicken pox, TWICE.

Personally I judge those who judge others for the decitions that they make for their own families, I judge people like you for thinking you have the right to make other mothers feel they should do what YOU think is 'correct'! Everybody has thier own opinions, but to FORCE your opinions and values upon others is wrong.

My DD is fit and well and doesn't need your pity!

bubbleymummy - I realise that the thread is referring to those mothers who choose not to breastfeed. I was not placing myself in that category. But the comments that upset me are those which slag off FF as a whole. They don't differentiate between those that choose not to BF and those that can't. Some say as an aside 'oh, I'm not referring to those who tried and failed'. But if FF is the only choice (and I did make a choice to stop expressing and give him formula - I could have persevered with this much longer) then you are constantly being thrust statistics about how much worse off your child is going to be compared to a BF one. The statistics that are being quoted are for FF as a whole, not to just reserved for those that choose not to breastfeed.

I'm 19 weeks pregnant with DC2 and I have absolutely no idea whether I will choose to breastfeed this time - and it is my choice.

StealthPo09IsHere - read and understood - thank you for clarifying your position, I perhaps should have scrolled down to see your earlier posts to make sure I wasn't taking you out of context before being snotty, and no, I don't think you are a nazi

That said, I think I will do some research myself on effects of ff. I understood that it was more that breast milk gave baby extra protection iyswim, rather than ff actually causing ill health in itself.

RSB

"Stating that formula feeding is an alternative to breastmilk is like comparing kidneys to a dialysis machine - both do the job, but which would you prefer?"

This is a bad comparison, but i'll go with it anyway. Of course nobody would CHOOSE dialysis (however comparing a life saving piece of machinery to Ffood just isn't right, there is no comparison), however if ones kidneys were to fail them then the dialysis is there as an alternative, not through choice, through need to survive.

Comparing this is like saying that a womans OWN womb is the best place for her unborn child, so with that said do you judge those who have to use a surrogate womb as an alternative to her own because hers isn't capable?

Do you then feel like if dialysis had been 'invented' but everyone saw this as 'wrong' because it is not 'natural' (I.e artificial) that it should not be avaliable to anyone? (because there are a lot of people who do think this exact thing, If it were down to them you would not be able to preserve life) So what are these peoples choices....to die?

I think what I am trying to say is that sometimes the CHOICE is not ours to make, things happen and we have to go with the best we can. If a mothers breasts or body fail her what do you suggest should happen in 'your opinion', if FF wasn't avaliable because some BF mothers feel it 'isn't right' for a child then where would we be? How would we feed these babies?

A lot of people judge FFing mothers as a WHOLE so I am offended when peole suggest I may not have done the best for her, the choice wasn't mine to make and in the circumstances I DID do what was best for her.
Some BF mothers think its 'ok' if a woman has tried and failed, but not ok if another woman 'chooses' not to.....where is the cut off line where it is ok, then not? Who decides this? Nobody has the right to think they are important enough to pass this judgement on another mother.

Lots of things are 'BETTER' for a child/woman/man it doesn't always work out that way, what is 'best' for one person actually may not be 'best' for another. People like this need to look outside of the box a little.

In my view it is not acceptable for anyone to pass judgement on anyone's feeding method - I dont make any distinction between people who do not want to bf and who therefore do not, and those who try desperately to do so, and then find they switch to ff (except I do have a huge amount of sympathy with anyone who is disappointed and, often, let down in this way).

oneyummy is right - no one can draw a clear line and say 'you're ok because you tried very hard' and 'you're less ok because you didn't try very long' and 'you're really not ok at all because you didn't try at all'.....no one knows what is in the background or in people's heads!

What we do know, because we live in the real world, is that socially and culturally, many women are put off from breastfeeding because of various ideas, various pressures, various norms, and those that do try, may find themselves subject to these as well, which undermines their choice. Add to that the reality that practical help with problems is very hard to find, and that formula is suggested as a solution when fixing the bf would be more effective....and you have a situation where bf can be a massive challenge.

tiktok I completely agree that a lot of mothers do not have the help and support that could help them to BF, and this IS why a lot of mothers decide to FF. And yes this is 'wrong' but not from the mothers point of view but from the professionals who fail to see a struggling mother and help her. We should not judge the mother who in a difficult position made such a choice, but to all unite and help each other to get ALL mothers the help and support they need.

People passing judgement on MN doesn't help women who made a difficult choice to FF their children. I understand that not everyone on this link is doing that and some are just annoyed that people make the choice with no reason behind it, but there are some whos views are not helpful to those of us who have had to FF. I get the impression that somehow these MNers think that they are better , above or simply in such a position to pass judgement on other mothers who don't do what they feel is 'right'. BF does not make you a better mother...

Sorry tiktok that was not all aimed at you. Was trying to say that I agree with what you had posted about support for women.

EllieG - breastfeeding does not give 'extra' protection. Breastfeeding is the normal, physiological, appropriate way for human infants to feed. If you say it gives 'extra' protection, you're using formula as the norm. It may be normal in the social sense, but not in the biological sense....hope you know what I mean

Formula feeding has risks intrinsic to it - it carries (small but serious) risks of infection in the powder itself, babies who use formula are more susceptible to a range of infections and other conditions (probably because of the hygiene risks, and also definitely because of the lack of antibodies in the formula). The risks of obesity are more complex - maybe to do with the way the baby is less able to control his intake as much as to do with the 'ingredients' of the formula. The relationship to intellectual development is probably to do with the fact that formula does not have the same constituents that support brain development but also possibly to do with different ways the milk is 'delivered' - the research has not been done that would make this clear.

None of this is to say 'all ff babies will be ill/stupid/fat' or to judge ff mothers. In fact, you cannot predict anything in an individual baby or pinpoint the cause of anything in an individual (apart from gross and obvious hygiene errors which might be seen in mothers who haven't much of a clue for whatever reason). It's on a larger scale that these differences pertain.

But anyway - it's not correct to say bf offers something 'extra'. Bf offers the biological 'standard' - nothing more.

"Tittybangbang - god I've read some judgemental crap about BF, but this really takes the plate of butterered scones. May I suggest that you reflect on how little you know about the experiences of people who have had traumatic births, ill babies, and weeks and months of non-stop anxiety about their babies before you pontificate about how babies feel."

Why does me thinking and talking about the experience of feeding from a baby's point of view mean that I automatically know nothing and care nothing about women's difficult experiences of breastfeeding?

Can you explain that please?

And then maybe you'd like to apologise to me for being so wrongheaded.

I had three difficult births myself and my first experience of breastfeeding was also very, very challenging. I'm well aware of how the experience of birth impacts on breastfeeding, and what a challenge breastfeeding can be. NOTHING in my posts suggest I belive that breastfeeding is easy or possible for everyone.

Your comment is nasty and rude and more to the point very, very unfair.

Would also like to point out to those of you who are angry about some of the comments made here - it's perfectly valid to have huge misgivings about formula feeding and formula itself. We should be allowed to express these beliefs without being accused of making personal criticisms of women who choose to formula feed, or who have to formula feed. Some of you need to learn to stand back and really read what's being said.

tittybangbang people have clearly stated that they "feel sorry for a baby who is not BF from day one" and that women who FF are wrong for not giving their child the best start in life. Stand up, down, back or just stare at it, it is criticism.

Your right everyone does have an opinion but not one is more important than the other, nobody is telling BF mums they 'feel sorry' for thier child because they didn't do what they feel is the 'right' thing to do.

People may have strong opinions about Formula or FF but to attack someone who has chosen this method for their child isn't the way to voice your concerns about Formula as a whole.

For goodness sake, if you think breastfeeding is natural, important and pleasurable for them why shouldn't you feel sorry for a baby who isn't breastfed?

It's got nothing to do with 'right' or 'wrong'. This is not a moral issue.

And perhaps you'd also like to pinpoint where exactly I or anyone else on this thread has "attacked" someone who has chosen to ff their child. If you could cut and paste from the post you're particularly concerned about it would help the rest of us make sense of what you've said.

Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't actually seen any personal criticism of mothers on this thread and wasn't aware that I'd engaged in any myself.

As I've said - can you C&P the bit in question. The bit where someone actually says - in your words - "that women who FF are wrong"

Oh come no tittybangbang, for god's sake, when someone says they 'feel sorry for babies who are not breastfed' how on earth are mothers who ff going to take that, but as personal criticism of their choices?!

Maria - you can take it any way you choose.

I mixed fed my first child and I really wish I hadn't had to, because I often wonder if exposure to cows' milk proteins may have been implicated in her developing excema. My younger two children were exclusively breastfed and do not have excema. (BTW - I don't want to engage in a debate about breastfeeding and health. I have done my reading and this is the thought I've arrived at - other people are perfectly welcome to have their own opinions on this subject).

I can say that I feel sorry for my daughter that she wasn't exclusively breastfed. Does that make me feel guilty about giving her formula? No. I made the only choices I could at the time, based on what I knew then and what I was capable of doing. I would assume that you and all the other mothers on this board have done the same for their babies, whether they bf, ff or mixed fed.

And seriously - if someone thinks that bf is really important and that babies who are not bf are missing out on something, then doesn't it logically follow that they are going to feel sorry for them? And if that's the case then doesn't it also follow that they should be able to express that view without someone who hasn't breastfed taking it at a personal criticism of their mothering when there is no criticism implied?

This is interesting, because of the way language has an impact on us. I think (of course I do) that babies who are not breastfed (for whatever reason) are missing out on something that matters and I also feel the same about mothers who do not breastfeed - they are missing out. But do I feel sorry for them? Or would I say that, in those words? I think not....probably because it sounds so flipping condescending and superior, and yes, critical!

And I don't feel condescending, superior or critical!

This is just what this phrase ends up sounding like!

It's like saying to mum of a kid with a disability - 'I feel sorry for your child' (NOTE: I am not saying formula feeding is like having a disability!!!). You'd have to be careful, wouldn't you, with those words? The mum might think 'but my kid might not be able to learn/see/hear/run like other kids, but he has so many other things that make him special and lovable.'

We've already established that what people say about bf and ff is taken very personally, even when it's a general discussion.

So saying one feels 'sorry' for ff babies is, lets say, a high risk strategy. You risk pissing people off big time....

Thanks EllieG, I appreciate you replying

I completely agree with tiktok, language has a huge impact on us. To 'feel sorry for' does sound horrible condescending, superior and critical - however well intended the comment was. Nothing to add, tiktok, as the language you used was so damn eloquent...

"I have a problem with babies not being breastfed.I can't help feeling sorry for a baby who isn't getting their mother's milk." These are your words tittybangbang. There are others too, but would take up too much of my time to go back through this whole thread.

"For goodness sake, if you think breastfeeding is natural, important and pleasurable for them why shouldn't you feel sorry for a baby who isn't breastfed?" again titty IN YOUR OPINION it is natural, important and pleasurable. Im not saying I dis-agree with this statement just pointing out that it is personal opinions that are leading you to offend others implying that your opinion is somehow better than theirs. And FF is just as important and pleasurable for a child, they still get to bond and the pleasure comes from the sucking and milk in thier tummies {grin]

People are picking up on issues from outside of this country too, how can a mother FF in this country be responsible for issues that arrive in a third world country?

tiktok I agree. Saying that you feel sorry for another womans baby is implying that that mother doesn't know what is best for her own child and somehow you know better than her. This of course IS going to offend.

TittyBangBang, you say: "And seriously - if someone thinks that bf is really important and that babies who are not bf are missing out on something, then doesn't it logically follow that they are going to feel sorry for them?"

Eeeerrr, no, it does NOT logically follow at all!! Like it or not (and why would you not like it, we don't live in a fascist state) formula feeding is a choice that families are free to make. We all make countless choices every day both for ourselves & our children. I'm a breastfeeding mother, and to be honest, even though bf is my conscious choice & I've struggled quite a bit to continue with it, I do not consider it THE most important choice I've made for my child. Even now that he's an infant, I still think there are all sorts of other things I chose for him, decide for him, do with him etc that are equally if not more important. That's how I see it. Every single person I know- all my friends, all my acquaintances- make their own choices about all sorts of things. Some I agree with, others I disagree with. It's very rare, in fact it's frankly impossible, to agree with everyone's choices. And yet, I have never ever felt 'sorry' for someone simply because they don't make the same choice as I do. I think it's incredibly naive & also very offensive- as TikTok has pointed out- to feel (and to be convinced) you know what's best for other people, and to feel you have a grasp of all the complex issues that are at play when families make certain choices.

Further, you say bf is 'natural important & pleasurable'. Well, I'm a breastfeeding mother, and even so I disagree with 2 of the 3 words you use. BF is important to me, yes. However, it has NOT come naturally at all, I would say it has been a completely UNnatural skill I've had to learn, and even now after 5 months it still doesn't feel natural. As for pleasurable, at certain times, yes, it can be pleasurable for both me & my baby, but most times it's not, it can be a struggle, a worry, and all sorts of other things. So there you go. Your description / experience of bf is simply that, YOUR description / experience.

To be honest though, I really don't know why I write all this to you, since I've written other things above, & have tried to have a dialogue, but I really don't feel it's getting anywhere (there are other people on this thread, e.g. TikTok, talking to whom really feels enriching & eye-opening. But sorry to say, with you it feels I'm going round in circles! Or it is simply my impression...)