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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Anyone else prepared to admit that they didn't b/f just because they didn't want to ??

650 replies

IllegallyBrunette · 02/01/2009 19:46

Just wondered really.

I have 3 dc and didn't breast feed any. I was 19 when I had dd1 and was asked by a midwife if i'd be breastfeeding and I said no. There was no argument or discussion, that was that.

When I had dd2 at 34 weeks she had to be tube fed. I offered to express milk for her but was told i needn't bother.

With ds, again I didn't want to but even if I had it would have been hard as he was supposed to be on phototherapy 24/7 for a week.

I think the attitude towards ff mums on this forum by some bf mums is disgusting. I would never dream of saying anything against any mum for feeding her baby by whichever way she chooses, yet some of the comments on here like 'formula should only be available if there is a proven medical need' are just awful.

OP posts:
yarrow5 · 07/01/2009 19:58

going back 2 the comments made about not only being the mothers choice but it should be the babies 2 - ds screamed everytime i put him 2 the breast, and i mean screamed. he's been a breath holder from birth when really upset & he only really did it when trying 2 get him 2 latch on, he screamed solidly 4 45mins at 3 days old when the midwife tried 2 get him 2 feed. that was just b4 we were readmitted cos of jaundice & weight loss.

Kwani · 07/01/2009 20:34

As I mentioned earlier in this thread I stopped bfing far earlier than I wanted to due to problems which I now believe I could have overcome if any support had been available. I haven't found any of the comments here offensive in spite of going through a traumatic bf experience myself. I firmly believe that everyone should at least attempt to bf if it's possible. Breastmilk is designed to provide your baby with everything it needs whereas formula is a one size fits all substitute.

Gavlaar · 07/01/2009 20:53

TIK TOK - You risk pissing people off big time....

What, like you did on this thread? here You say that suggesting that a bf mother should express is wrong and then suggest it yourself further down.

Or is it one rule for you and one rule for everybody else?

I think you are very condescending.

AnarchyAunt · 07/01/2009 21:01

Having read the link, it seems that tiktok was saying that the idea a mother should express and feed from a cup instead of BF was wrong.

Expressing was suggested later in the thread as a way to maintain milk supply - ie, for a different reason.

Personally I think tiktok did rather well to carry on offering her usual evidence based, non judgemental advice on that thread given the hostile abuse thrown.

madmouse · 07/01/2009 21:07

bit of respect for tiktok please

she deserves it as anyone who has ever received and taken her advice well knows!

Ineedmorechocolatenow · 07/01/2009 21:07

I think that's really harsh Gavlaar I can't see that Tiktok's at risk of pissing anyone off. If I'm right, Tiktok is a trained BF counsellor and is giving informed advice based on a wealth of study and experience. I've read through the thread on your link, and still can't see it....

...nope still can't see it.....

Wispabarsareback · 07/01/2009 21:19

Thanks Tiktok for your objective, non-emotive and generally compassionate approach on this most sensitive of subjects. You say a lot of sensible things.

I'm not going to engage in a slanging match with tittybangbang - other people have made very eloquently the points I would have made if I'd had time to look at MN earlier in the day.

Formula may be 'one size fits all', but DD1 loved it (and she definitely didn't love my breast!) and it probably saved DD2's life.

oneyummymummy · 07/01/2009 22:03

Formula may be 'on size fits all' but lets not forget that we KNOW what is in formula. A mother breast feeding her baby could consume any thing...alcohol, drugs or simply a very unhealthy diet....now is that 'better' for a child? I know this goes off the subject a little and we are not talking about mothers who are doing these things but by saying that FF is one size fits all is just a random comment that has the same meaning as if saying that a mother BF couldn't feed her child the 'wrong' thing!

RockinSockBunnies · 07/01/2009 22:04

Tittybangbang - I agree with you! Think my posts say very similar things to yours so sorry you're getting all the flak!

By the way, your children are absolutely stunning - just looked at the pics on your profile!

madmouse · 07/01/2009 22:08

oneyummymummy you are now comparing apples and pears. And respectfully, the last thing this thread needs is digression into the complex world of alcohol and drug abuse in mothers.

oneyummymummy · 07/01/2009 22:15

And formula comes in many different ranges to suit your child. My dd had bad reflux and colic so was put onto a staydown milk and I am sure that this saved her a lot of pain and discomfort.If I was to have been able to BF and she had reflux would I have been a bad mother to have carried on BF when there was an alternative to save her this discomfort, and help her to actually keep her milk down and stay healthy. Even if I was to have BF a little still.....who draws the line...and where do we draw the line?

And what is BF anyway, surely this could come under the heading 'one size fits all'.

You could have this discussion about any thing take for instance weaning and feeding your child solids. One mother may cook things one way and anther, another way, whos to say that one is 'better' than the other....you will always feel that your way is the best (otherwise surely you wouldn't do it) but that doesn't mean that your way IS the best. There are 'alternatives' to everything in life. When one is not avaliable the other is. If these alternatives were not avaliable and the "normal" was not avaliable what would we do....let our children starve?

becka1 · 07/01/2009 22:18

I don't get why the discussion of bottle vs breast ever has to get to either 'missing out'. I chose to ff as in my particular circumstances worked out it would be best of me and my baby.....in the complexity of the bigger issues i.e. all aspects of our life. These discussions seem very biased as to weighing up pros and cons in relation to a few but not all pertinent aspects/
on the record I found ff really straight forward and chose to do so (very informed - I am very educated) and will do so with my next baby

oneyummymummy · 07/01/2009 22:20

madmouse
"I know this goes off the subject a little and we are not talking about mothers who are doing these things but by saying that FF is one size fits all is just a random comment that has the same meaning as if saying that a mother BF couldn't feed her child the 'wrong' thing!"

As I said this did go off the subject a little I was merely trying to point out that saying that formula is a one size fits all substitute is a silly comment to make, as would be if I started going into the ins and outs of what mothers 'could' potentially be feeding their children as the poster is saying that Bmilk provides a child with everything that is needed. Probably a bad comparison.

RockinSockBunnies · 07/01/2009 22:44

oneyummymummy - I'm not sure how you can say that breastmilk is a "one size fits all" method of feeding. In my view, a living substance that adapts to suit your child's needs as they grow, that changes its composition according to how hot/cold it might be, that produces antibodies to fight infection that your own child has been exposed to and generally offers significantly better health benefits for a child is certainly not a substance that could be described as you have. Last time I looked, formula milk didn't introduce a child to a range of flavours in preparation for weaning in the way that breastmilk carries flavours of what the mother has been eating.

In addition, I'm not sure how citing alcoholic and drug-taking mothers is relevant in the vast majority of cases. If a mother decides to injest dangerous substances then she shouldn't breastfeed and put her baby at risk. But it's a tiny minority of women that would even do that.

madmouse · 07/01/2009 22:45

oneyummymummy, I am not sure you are right to dismiss the one size fits all comment so lightly. Breastmilk is made by me for my baby. Formula is made by a big brand in a factory thousands of tins at a time.

of course babies will tolerate some brands more than others and the stuff can be manipulated to fit sensitive babies, but you should not underestimate how specifically tailored bm is. I have done my share of expressing and I have seen my milk change as my ds grew.

tittybangbang · 07/01/2009 23:01

"Eeeerrr, no, it does NOT logically follow at all!! Like it or not (and why would you not like it, we don't live in a fascist state) formula feeding is a choice that families are free to make."

Sorry - I can't understand why you think this comment is in some way an answer to the point I was making. I can't see any connection at all.

Are you trying to say that my comments are somehow 'anti-choice'? Maybe it's easier to have a go about this - which is so patently unreasonable - than respond to what I actually did say.

"We all make countless choices every day both for ourselves & our children. I'm a breastfeeding mother, and to be honest, even though bf is my conscious choice & I've struggled quite a bit to continue with it, I do not consider it THE most important choice I've made for my child".

Well no, neither do I. Nothing I've said in my posts implies that it is the only or the most important choice we make for our children. Why are you responding to me as though I did say that? You've created a 'false argument' - well known tactic in these sorts of debates. Also known as 'poisoning the well'. Imply that someone has said something completely unreasonable in relation to the issue, such as that mothers should be forced to breastfeed, or that breastfeeding guarantees a child will be completely healthy for life - then attack this opinion as though it had actually been expressed, when in fact nothing of the sort has been said or implied.

" And yet, I have never ever felt 'sorry' for someone simply because they don't make the same choice as I do"

Again - I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I haven't said anything about feeling sorry for mothers who choose not to breastfeed. I feel sorry for babies who haven't been breastfed because I feel they've missed out on something special and important. I assume you don't think breastfeeding is really all that important, though you don't say what sort of other choices you compare it to. I mean we are talking about your baby's sole source of nutrition for a full 4 - 6 months of their life. We're told that how babies are fed at this time has an impact on their health that can be measured years later. I'd be interested to know what day to day choices you make that are as important, and as irrevocable as the choice not to breastfeed.

"I think it's incredibly naive & also very offensive- as TikTok has pointed out- to feel (and to be convinced) you know what's best for other people, and to feel you have a grasp of all the complex issues that are at play when families make certain choices"

Sorry - what on earth does this comment refer to? Where in my posts have I 'assumed I have a grasp' of complex issues? I've only talked about the experience of breastfeeding from a baby's point of view. How do you go from my comments about this to criticising me for making naive comments about women's feelings and the complex issues that are at play when it comes to infant feeding? I haven't actually realy commented on these things. That's not the same as denying they exist or are important. In fact, if you'd bothered to read through my posts properly, instead of going of on an ill-informed rant of your own, you would have noticed that I did mention I believe that all mothers do the best they can based on what they know and what's possible for them. Did you read this comment and just choose to ignore it because it didn't fit with your argument?

"Further, you say bf is 'natural important & pleasurable'. Well, I'm a breastfeeding mother, and even so I disagree with 2 of the 3 words you use. BF is important to me, yes. However, it has NOT come naturally at all,"

Again - you've completely missed the point in what I was saying. I wasn't talking about breastfeeding being pleasurable and natural for women. I said it was pleasurable and natural for babies (acknowledging at the same time that though natural it's a learned skill for babies, and not always pleasurable if it can't be made to work well). I honestly think it's quite ironic that you are so wrapped up with your own feelings and perceptions of this issue that you've managed to completely misread what I was saying about breastfeeding and babies.

"To be honest though, I really don't know why I write all this to you, since I've written other things above, & have tried to have a dialogue, but I really don't feel it's getting anywhere"

No - it's not. But that's because you're not responding to what I've said. You're responding to something completely different, which has everything to do with your own agenda and nothing to do what I've said, which as far as I can see you've neither acknowledged nor understood.

madmouse · 07/01/2009 23:08

Tittybangbang mind your blood pressure, try not to heat things up even further.This is a very emotive subject and we all need some respect for our feelings (you obviously included)

tittybangbang · 07/01/2009 23:16

There are 'alternatives' to everything in life. When one is not avaliable the other is. If these alternatives were not avaliable and the "normal" was not avaliable what would we do....let our children starve?

That's not really the point though is it? This thread has been about the choice to ff in the absence of breastfeeding failure.

I don't think there's anyone anywhere that would want a child do starve if its mother couldn't breastfeed.

TBH it's a bit annoying making comments like 'should we let our babies starve'. Why say it? Nobody's implying that formula isn't the best and only real alternative to breastmilk when breastmilk isn't available.

tittybangbang · 07/01/2009 23:19

Madmouse - I'm not angry, but I'm also not inclined to let unfair and unkind posts that single me out for criticism, go without comment.

tiktok · 07/01/2009 23:51

Gavlaar - are you a name changer or just someone new I am managing to annoy somehow?
Perhaps you are the poster who used to be LaVie, who I certainly did annoy on the thread you link to.

As has been pointed out, you have misunderstood, misread, or just plain deliberately misinterpreted my posts.

Sometimes, expressing is needed, sometimes it isn't.

Surely you have learnt enough about breastfeeding by now to realise that is the case?

If not, do stick around and keep reading

But don't post anything suggesting an intervention to mothers until you have learnt a bit more, and a few more manners, will you?

Thanks ever so!

tiktok · 07/01/2009 23:56

oneyummymummy - you say "A mother breast feeding her baby could consume any thing...alcohol, drugs or simply a very unhealthy diet....now is that 'better' for a child?"

Well....in fact, if a mother is a drug abuser in pregnancy, she will be encouraged to breastfeed or at least supply breastmilk for her newborn, as this reduces the often painful withdrawal symptoms for the baby. Obviously she would be encouraged to come off drugs as long term ingestion of drugs via breastmilk is not safe.

Moderate alcohol intake is not unsafe for a breastfeeding mother's baby.

tiktok · 07/01/2009 23:57

Er....I mean alcohol drunk by the mum, not the baby !

bubbleymummy · 08/01/2009 00:15

Just on the point about babies starving if formula wasn't available. I don't really think this would be the case. Formula is a fairly recent thing and I don't think babies were left to starve in the past if their mother couldn't feed them for whatever reason - wetnurses would have been used for example. Without formula, I think things like wetnursing and donated milk would actually be considered more acceptable as alternatives and more people would be donating milk for those situations. Sorry, this is probably digressing a bit too much from the original post...

Hopefully · 08/01/2009 08:13

I know this thread is very emotive for some people, but it is possibly the single most informative debate on bf i have read.

You're all teaching at least 1 BF novice an awful lot about BF/formula research and opinion, so thank you. I think threads like this are a really important part of MN - information for the lurkers - even though they can seem fairly pressured and difficult for some posters at the time.

As you were...

Maria2007 · 08/01/2009 08:18

tittybangbang, that's ok. I've failed to convince you, and you've failed to convince me. End of discussion. Not sure how a conversation (even a heated one) can progress when we start saying 'this is not exactly what I said' etc. This reminds me of politicians bickering & I for one have had enough. Have a good day.